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New PC charges
New PC charges
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Perhaps some of us are too efficient for our own good. One of the problems as I see it is that by moving the goal posts after seven plus years on here, the accumulated numbers are now counting against me. Had these rules been in place from day one, the need to have lots of losers to accompany your winners would have been clear, but as a trader specialising in certain sports, it's not unusual to go several days without taking a loss. But Betfair don't allow you to start again.
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do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace
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'No logic in their explanation.....'
They have to paint it as if there's solid logic behind it, as marginal users we 'cost' no more than losers to betfair to provide this 'service'. But apparently they're 'subsidising' us, it's as if Betfair derived all these profitable strategies and are now employing us to execute them. I wonder how ridiculous that suggestion would have sounded to the founders when they set up the site. The 250 threshold is baffling, they're admitting that the pricing structure has been woeful for 10 years, but they were oblivious to that fact for 8 and only minor commission changes were required? |
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"BETFAIR are to increase the charges on their most successful users to as much as 60 per cent of gross win next month in a move the betting exchange claim will protect smaller players using the site." (Racing Post)
What Betfair don't understand is that the majority of their customers want to become successful using this site, and this put clouds of doom on the horizon for that success. It not only offends the customers who win a lot already, but also the customers who want to get to that position, those very same smaller punters they claim to be protecting. No forward thinking from Betfair, just money grabbing tactics and utterly disgraceful. "At the present level, Betfair, who believe only around 500 of their 3.8 million registered users will be affected by the new charges, claim to break even on the highly profitable users, but state that profits from elsewhere are ploughed into improving the site to meet levels of trading from big punters and advertising to attract new customers to maintain liquidity in the markets." (Racing Post) Prove it Betfair. Publish the numbers. Show us how many of your punters are affected by this, as if you check the comments under this Racing Post story it seems that there are a lot of people who do not fit your 'big fish' claims have been affected by the premium charge already. "A spokesman said: “Betfair believes that the implementation of the adjusted charge will provide the business with fair compensation for the service it provides to those impacted customers, who currently pay a rate of commissions and charges that does not reflect the benefit they gain from the Betfair ecosystem." (Racing Post) A business gets regular customers, those who keep it going by spending a lot on it. It does not drive them away by charging them many times that which the other customers pay. Betfair management need to learn some basic business strategy. "We have evolved our pricing model to ensure we have a fair pricing structure for all of our customers, over 99.9 per cent of whom are not affected by this adjustment." (Racing Post) The solution to the premium charge should be simple. Set commission rates at 5% for everyone, no reductions for anything. Most customers don't mind if they are paying 5% or 4% etc. THe majority of them don't even take any notice of their commission rates. Considering the millions of customers Betfair claim to have, that would surely generate more than the premium charge from those '500' largest profit-makers does. Unless of course, is it more than 500, and more than 0.01% of the customers? |
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Well, that just wouldn't work. Liquididty would plummet along with betfair's revenue.
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
[...] I can see from analyses of my current betting strategies that even in a worst case scenario I should still be able to earn a net 8 % pa on total revenues( defined as the total liabilities of all my bets). That's well down from my current levels,[...] I remember you being incredulous about people making extremely high % gains on their capital. I think 8% on turnover is very high, I take it you are only betting a very small fraction of your bank each day? If I turn over roughly my full bank each day, with a NET ROI of 0.2% after all trading fees, my balance will double over 350 days. If you turn over roughly 2.5% of your bank each day, your bank will also double over 350 days. Both with profits fully reinvested of course. Am I misinterpreting something here? |
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viva was it you that suggested Betfair may buy BDak?
It makes sense in more ways than one. I wonder if that's in the pipeline |
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will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy
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do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace
Good Question. I think they will. The big Swedish firm that signed an agreement with Betfair must have different charges to the rest of us are there would be no need no to sign an agreement. If they were seeding all the minor markets it wouldn't be so bad if they got commission discounts, but according to an old rp article about them 15% of their buisness is on the premier league. |
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I was told that they had no preferential treatment, although that was a while ago.
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Unless I'm misunderstanding this they are aiming for a target of 40% for people caught by this, the 60% etc will be (to absolutely hammer) existing customers who are still on a relatively low figure, and once they've been hammered enough they'll drop to 50% then 40%?
I.e the 5% trigger etc in the initial post in this thread surely includes PC, you'd think, so the 60% will quickly move people over the threshholds as PC ramps up the total commission paid. But that almost says there are some specific people they are targetting, the 60% thing seems almost deliberately punative! |
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That's what I thought, although someone on a basic 5% is much less likely to be hit by losing sequences than someone on 38%.
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There does seem one unfairness in this which is that's it's over an entire persons lifetime?
It's effectively a tax based on life earnings. Going forward assuming they keep it, someone who has been here 15 years earning 20 grand a year on average will start getting hammered for 40%, someone who has been here 5 years earning 40 grand a year will be on 20%. They should roll it off so winnings < 5 years ago are discounted or something. And as with anything, honest people who've managed to earn that figure will likley pay it, others will likely find ways round it :( |
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(I say going forward as I know BF hasn't been around 15 years has it, but you get the point)
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wow there is a genuine betting exchange out there with no tax.... just person to person betting
its betduck. any viable compitition now will bring down betfair very quickly. betfair are taking a massive risk. there forcing massive luqidity to betduck which is not wise... lets get on our bike and make betduck strong! |
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Betduck - the Duck without the Bill!
(I should work in marketing) |
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Just checking, PC paid doesn't come into it when they calculate whether you shal pay 40 , 50 or 60 %. They just look at commission generated, so you are stuck on 60 % as long as you keep on being under 5 % in commission generated.
This is what they have said : Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge rate < 5% 60% 5% - 10% 50% > 10% 40% |
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This user is offline. u25k Date Joined: 10 Jul 05 Add contact | Send message When: 29 Jun 11 12:43 Joined: Date Joined: 10 Jul 05 | Topic/replies: 1,067 | Blogger: u25k's blog will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy This almost certainly won't happen, but there would be no issues at all if both parties agreed. As an exchange Betfair already has an effective monopoly and buying purple would hardly even make a difference. Betfair can legitimately claim that as a bookmaker they are operating in an extremely competitive market place though. Before I joined Betfair my betting experience was limited to a £5 free bet. Betfair was not seriously competing with anyone for my business. If betting exchanges didn't exist, I would not be betting with a traditional bookie instead, so they are not competing with anyone other than purple and the other smaller exchanges for my business, although Pinny is a viable alternative for a small part of my betting overall. |
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blank
Date Joined: 30 Sep 10 Add contact | Send message When: 29 Jun 11 12:50 Joined: Date Joined: 30 Sep 10 | Topic/replies: 37 | Blogger: blank's blog do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace Good Question. I think they will. The big Swedish firm that signed an agreement with Betfair must have different charges to the rest of us are there would be no need no to sign an agreement. If they were seeding all the minor markets it wouldn't be so bad if they got commission discounts, but according to an old rp article about them 15% of their buisness is on the premier league. Exactly what I was thinking. I'd love to know what's in the agreement. Perhaps it's an agreement to keep charges stable for a long period of time. That's what I would want, as it's important for a company making longer term plans and investments. |
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Ahh ok Eddie I was assuming it was like PC Mk I, where it all hinges on a single commision paid figure, and losing bets also count towards it along with PC paid. I'm still not 100% sure you're correct though as I could read what you've posted as either way, as that could STILL be a TOTAL commission, all types, paid.
On the premium portal they don't split PC paid from other commision as stands. Will PC Mk II payers have two figures to look at? We'll know in 2 or 3 weeks I'm sure either way. |
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do you think some people the chosen few eg friends of the company, big betting corporations, on course bookies, market seeders will get special deals. If this happens it will be a disgrace
Good question. The bookmaker thing could be the reason behind the whole PC issue. I know that Betfair want bookmakers to trade with them in a systematic way. They have told some bookmakers they want only bookmakers to be their big traders and not just regular people. I know of 'big' bookmakers that do not have access to the BF website anymore because they didn't sign up to this deal with BF. What can you make of that? |
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JC, if you look at the portal(the old one), you will see that commission generated is not including PC paid. Commission generated is added up with Other Charges(for those who have paid any of that) and PC paid in order to get the Total Charges number.
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Sorry you're right Eddie.
 . The blush emoticon really is useless, it's virtually identical to laugh.So if you're correct, that makes even LESS sense. Is it .. to encourage 60% payers to make more losing bets?! |
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That's a good point M. If betfair have, or want to attract, these kind of deals the margins would have to be bigger than lone users such as myself would tolerate. The purple have effectively excluded me for undercutting their preferred suppliers and maybe this results from the same business idea?
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Catfloppo..
The purple have effectively excluded me for undercutting their preferred suppliers Meaning that you were successfull in some markets where some bookies might have deals with purple? And this was why they cut you out? I cannot believe this?.. What reason were you given? |
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No JC, I think it's just so that Betfair can collect more from the ones who have nowhere else to go.
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TheInvestor2
29 Jun 11 13:59 Joined: 28 May 11 | Topic/replies: 100 | Blogger: TheInvestor2's blog By: This user is offline. u25k Date Joined: 10 Jul 05 Add contact | Send message When: 29 Jun 11 12:43 Joined: Date Joined: 10 Jul 05 | Topic/replies: 1,067 | Blogger: u25k's blog will not be allowed to buy bdak. Anti-competition policy As an exchange Betfair already has an effective monopoly and buying purple would hardly even make a difference. It would allow them to keep hold of both sets of customers i.e any they may lose due to the new charge. |
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Although I suppose if that happened they wouldn't be able to operate both exchanges with such a step in comm.
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M, I wasn't successful but yes, that's what I mean. They raised my minimum bet size to £10 because my bets were 'pushing bigger bets' off the display. During the exchange it was clear that the owners of the 'bigger bets' were preferred customers. I politely emailed them a goodbye note along with some figures showing the volume of my activity on betfair.
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Unfortunately that's how they operate. Same as Betfair only the dak are far far more candid about it at the moment.
It's very much a case of if your offer is more attractive to them than the last person or other bidder then you're in. |
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At least betfair, to the best of my knowledge, set the same rules for everyone. My exchange was clearly with someone who was largely making it up as they went along.
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"BETFAIR are to increase the charges on their most successful users to as much as 60 per cent of gross win next month in a move the betting exchange claim will protect smaller players using the site." (Racing Post)
so will they distribute a % of the PC generated to smaller playrers / losers?? how will this charge protect anyone? |
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They will take some of the winners money off them to make the losers feel better probably. Thats maybe what they are trying to say.
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betfair today said they tae 72% of customers pot money.
A successful betfarian needs discipline in staking and selection of bets. Otherwise (greed) he will lose. I think betfair was successful until now because they provided good interface and charged reasonably. But now they due to greed they are shooting themselves. Now the goalpost is at 250k but tomorrow they can shift it to 10k or 50k. No one dare to charge 60% (not even govt can dare to tax like that). It is simply saying that we don't want you. They want to seed their markets and want to take all the profits themselves. Therefore it creates a gap in market that is pure exchange where users can bet among themselves and pay sensible commission charges. I do think betfair is losing their status as exchange and becoming another bookmaker. Possibly they will fail big because of mix up. |
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Nadal, Federer and Djokovic get a phone call from the ATP, "Sorry guys you are far too successful,won too many slams and have taken the vast majority of prize money out of our ecosystem, So we are going to charge 60% of any future prize money and reclaim 60% of your future titles won".
The Fab three, totally outraged by such treatment decide to retire from tennis. What happens next? Well the next level of talent come through, Murray, Tsonga, Del Potro. They start to dominate and win most of the slams and take home most of the prize money. You cant stop nature, there will allways be one person who outperforms another. There will allways be Winners and Losers. Eliminating these 500 top earners will just see the next crop come through, the ones who are just under the 250k lifetime mark. Then When Betfair eliminate that 500, another 500 will take their place. This is not the answer Betfair. |
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jme
They would only retire if they could do something else as rewarding elsewhere. Otherwise they would stay and make the best of it. The big winners on BF can still make relatively big money, even after the PC. They can't make any money with the HS bookies it would seem, or else they would be there in a flash. They presumably can't make money either in any form of non-gambling activity, or at least not as good levels of money, or else they would be there in a flash. I sympathise only with the complaints about the fact that the net being thrown out by BF to catch the big winners not paying a fair amount for the benefits they receive from the BF platform, is regrettably hauling in many smaller fish who by virtue of their betting patterns look to be big winners one week and next week are clearly not. They are being unfairly penalised. |
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My current life time charges (what they calculated is 19.1%), this means I am a 40% payer.
I have one question: If after 18 of july I lose 10,000 first week and pay 1000 in commission. Next week I make 5000 and also pay 1000 in commission. I would pay 40% this week total charges, since I am still way ahead of 40% life time total charges, correct? Thank you. |
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This is what comes of putting too many eggs in one basket, I've always spread my betting around to avoid being hung, drawn and quartered by any one operator, being adaptable and moving around is the way forward.
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Alexandru, they will put you on 40 % total charges paid come July 18th, as if that was what you had paid up to that date.
You will therefore not pay any PC in the scenario you described. If you stitch the weeks though, you would have to pay PC the first week. |
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If you switch the weeks
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