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General Betting
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I find it hard to believe that no Betfair employees actually use the site regularly but it seems that is the case if the forum chat answers are to be believed
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http://community.betfair.com/forum_chat/go/thread/view/94078/26924457/Live_%E2%80%98Site_Performance%E2%80%99_forum_chat_%E2%80%93_Thursday_10th_February_6pm_GMT
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Bilbo Baggins makes an excellent point earlier in the thread. On Saturday, when the mainsite outage occured, i had an open position on Captain Chris for an amount that made my ass clench, but was confident the market would accomadate my bet to 'green up' as I had good positions on other runners. When the main site went down I found I could get onto Betfair Lite for a while and managed to cancel some bets but really wanted to keep the Captain Chris bet open. Yes, in hindsight I should have cancelled the lot. When the race started I had no idea whether to cheer on Captain Chris or hope it pulled up at the first! If an outage occurs any event during the downtime should be voided. It may not seem a lot but I ended up losing £40 on a race where I was guaranteed to win £40 10 mins earlier. The more worrying thing for me is that for all i knew I could have lost 1.5k due to not knowing what had been matched.
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the void markets during downtimes has been done to death before unfortunately. i think the consensus quite rightly always sides with the fact that bets should stand, for a variety of good reasons, not least that people might be able to maliciously bring the site down to void a large losing bet.
however, the valid issue which was completely avoided in the chat was what should happen with unmatched bets when the main site is down but the API and lite are still up and the markets haven't been suspended. essentially some people are leaving bets up which can be matched without their being able to cancel them. it seems quite simple to me that all bets matched which weren't keep bets should be voided in this period. the markets should be suspended and all non keep bets on in play markets should be cancelled prior to the site coming back up again. as you can see, this is precisely the question eddie asked (apart from we appear to differ on our keep bet opinions), but like other questions they chose not to answer. |
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I was very frustrated by the forum chat. Basically they don't particularly care that you're a trader and you had an open position on a selection in an event at the time of outage - it's just tough ****. However they will look after those people who placed their bet at 10 in the morning and do nothing else because they are far more important than us second class traders. Also that means they can guarantee they get commission on an event even if the site goes down.
I would have thought traders were far more important as we provide a huge amount of liquidity - in my opinion ALL bets on an event during an outage should be cancelled - as long as everyone knows that there is no problem. Those that placed the bet before the event and still want to get on can go to another site and do so . Meanwhile the rest of us are protected from looking a massive loss in the face because we intended to lay off during the event. I have lost thousands over the years from these outages because I couldn't trade out of a position. Do you care Betfair-Community-Manager? It doesn't seem so. A hilarious post that illustrates why us gamblers have to rid ourselves of these parasites. |
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By: This user is offline. Betfair_Community_Manager_2
Date Joined: 22 Nov 10 Add contact | Send message When: 10 Feb 11 19:14 Rocket I'll try and get you answer to that one, but it may be tomorrow. Hi, Betfair Community Manager, any success with the follow up ? |
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Please Feck, can you restrain yourself from making this just another Feck vs traders thread. We actually have a Betfair employee on this thread that we can talk to(even if he so far has been very selective in whom he talks with) and hopefully get some answers.
We used to have pythia a year or so ago, but he made a fool of himself and haven't been seen since. |
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the main site is down but the API and lite are still up and the markets haven't been suspended. essentially some people are leaving bets up which can be matched without their being able to cancel them.
If the API and lite are still work why can people not cancel their bets? If lite is still working without a hitch a better option might be to divert the main homepage to the lite site. |
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because i assume significant numbers of the client base only use the main website to access markets.
it's an idea re-inforced by betfair's actions over the weekend. despite lite and the API being unaffected by the problems they experienced they eventually shut these channels down. i agree entirely about the main site failing over to a different channel should the problem only be with an architectural layer which doesn't affect bet matching, but you've then got user experience problems. |
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so how much notice did we get about todays 11am testing? 10 mins, no mention about the 12.30 tests apart from in the forum chat yesterday, why can't this testing work not be caried out at a time when it is apropriate, maybe sometime between 2am to 7am yes thats right get your staff in to do the early shift instead so the tests can be carried out with causing so many problems
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Agree with Bilbo's earlier post in that any such outage could cause serious problems for traders who are unable to close a position prior to kick off.
While i accept it's not realistic to void all matched bets i think there is a compromise betfair could look at which would involve offering to 'take on' a customers bet, if requested, win or lose. So in effect betfair would be acting as the punter. There would have to be a few basic rules; like if the current value of the trade was negative, the customer would bear this loss, the same as if they were to 'red up'. But the main point is it would protect anyone from having half of their bank on a game when they would never normally risk 5%. If these outages are now a thing of the past and betfair really are completely confidant that this will not happen in the future then why not offer this service. It may never need be used but most importantly it would give traders confidence to trade the markets and confidence in betfair. |
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Common sense Handles. They do seem to think their site is so stable now this is very unlikely to happen again (cough,cough, splutter, smirk!!) . As you say why can they not offer this service - answer: Money - it might cost them whereas the current situation guarantees them some form of commission.
Where are you Betfair Community Manager - you seem to have gone very silent. |
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He's off researching an answer to my question...
Or he's just...off !  |
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Handles, Rollo Tomasino suggested that a year or two ago. Not a single trader endorsed it. Most are looking for a whinge rather than a solution.
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rich coming from you Feck - you'd find a row in an empty trading room...
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Find it hard to believe no traders endorsed it. After all it would just be a safety net, used in the worst-case scenario. Any gamblers who want to let their position ride, can do. And for the more cautious amongst us, take the insurance.
In the long run betfair would be neutral as the wins and losses would even out although i agree that it would reduce their commission. But that shouldn't be a factor and even if it is then whack a charge on the service. I'd happily pay a small % fee if it saved me from a potential bank loss. |
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It's a true story Handles. There was a thread about 7 pages long on the outage and after Rollo posted the idea I was the only one that supported it as being a solution betfair should consider (up to some takeout limit). Come to think of it, my endorsement was probably what stopped the idea dead in its tracks.
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Fair enough. Didnt realise the idea had been floated about before.
Lets hope mr betfair community man takes a look this time..? |
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Betfair_Community_Manager_2 must be exhausted now after almost three days of constantly monitoring this thread !
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Doesn't look likely does it
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Any chance of a follow up on the unanswered questions Mr Betfair manager ?
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I sent them an email earlier and I've had a reply.
The long and short of it is that they don't offer keep bets 'because they can be taken advantage of'. Yeap, I was [and still am] just as confused as you are now. |
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In fact the reply is so farcical I may as well show the whole thing:
'I can confirm that the reason we do not offer a 'Keep' option in this market is due to the fact that your bet could be taken advantage of. For example if you back 1-0 for £10 at a higher price than currently available and select to keep this bet, if the score was to go 0-1 someone could lay your bet without the risk of losing as this outcome is now impossible. Due to this we advise customers to manage this market rather than leave bets in which have the possibility of being taken despite the result no longer being possible. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries.' |
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Rocket, best to just automate with a "first in line" program that also recognizes if a match goes to 1000. It is a simple excel.
You need to put the refresh on slow at atleast the rate of the match delay. Follow (just wording, not commands). You want 1-0 and it is offered at 5.0 at the start. You want 8.0 because you expect a late goal. Before the match you put IF PRICE OFFERED IS AN(GREATER THAN 7.6, LESS THAN 10.00), THEN EXECUTE BACK AT "FRONT OF LINE TO MINIMUM 8.0. This means once the odds hit 7.8 matched, your bet comes up, not before. THEN, the bonus. If the odds are at 7.4 and a goal is scored going 0-1, the game is suspended. At unsuspend, the odds shoot up to 1000. Your condition says no odds above 10.00 so the bet IS NOT placed saving you some coin. Other options are there based on your strategy or needs. |
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Thanks SHAPESHIFTER but that's a bit beyond me just now.
Is nobody else bothered by the glaring oversight from Betfair? The obvious one being 0-0 HT can be Kept yet is ruined if an early goal goes in. Likewise, 4-0,5-0,6-0,7-0 on the CS2 can be ruined by an early goal to the other team yet these may also be Kept. I don't think Betfair are telling us the whole truth but whatever it is it's a pain in the ar*se having to enter your bets and stakes at kick off. |
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about 50% of keep bets can be 'taken advantage of' in any case
 Betfair's response is a bit of a red herring. |
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Exactly.
And if they are so bothered about folk betting on something that's already been conditionally determined then why let ppl put up bets on those impossible results ? |
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If betfair wanted to step it up, it would mean "canceling" all bets that could be "taken advantage of" after a goal. Inotherwords, when a game goes 1-0, prior to the UNSUSPEND, they would cancel ALL 0-0 and 0-1 bets that were in "keep mode".
Pretty straight up stuff and would win accolades on integrity. |
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I've sent Betfair a reply pointing out some of their inconsistencies and asking if they would reconsider, perhaps putting a small notice in the Market Info to warn customers that Keep Bets will remain in a market after a goal or red card.
It's a bit of a bugger if you're on 17 correct scores and have to enter the odds/stakes for all bets for them at kick off. |
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Token reply from Betfair. You know the one, where they ignore every point in your email and send you a standard reply that doesn't address the point.
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Still no answer from the Betfair Community Manager then? It's only 10 days since they last posted - half an hour after the thread had been started. One which was invited by Betfair.
They ought to hang their heads in shame. |
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I've just given Betfair_Community_Manager_2 a nudge on the Site Feedback thread 'Customer Service ???? Sorry mate, never 'eard of it..' as they were on there asking how they may be 'falling down'.
Let's see if they bother to reply. |
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Finally, they've agreed it's strange and are looking into it.
Lets just hope we don't log in one day and find we can't have Keep Bets in the HT market |
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they have now confirmed with “Correct Score” markets we disabled the “Keep Bets” function around 20-24 months ago. I can confirm that the reason there aren't “Keep Bets” on this particular market, but we do however offer them for “Correct Score 2” markets is because the function was disabled due to issues with runners in the markets, whereby customers are not being able to win as soon as a goal is scored (i.e. 0-0). With the “Half Time Score” market, for some reason the bug/issue isn't there and that is why keep bets are offered on that market too.
I think for my own sanity I'll drop the matter. Unless I'm being thick and the above makes sense to anyone else? |
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Some customers have reported recently that they have had problems with high memory usage when using Betfair. We’re pleased to report that we applied a fix to the bug earlier today that should resolve the majority of these issues. We will keep up a continuum of performance improvements in this area to erode remaining problems.
Little steps can lead to big changes. I'm right now restling with firefox when using betfair. As the day went on yesterday, it seemed to deteriorate. I just updated my flash this morning ( http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/ ). Hopefully this will make things sail a bit more. |
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they have now confirmed with “Correct Score” markets we disabled the “Keep Bets” function around 20-24 months ago. I can confirm that the reason there aren't “Keep Bets” on this particular market, but we do however offer them for “Correct Score 2” markets is because the function was disabled due to issues with runners in the markets, whereby customers are not being able to win as soon as a goal is scored (i.e. 0-0). With the “Half Time Score” market, for some reason the bug/issue isn't there and that is why keep bets are offered on that market too.
It is not a picture of clarity, is it? case for having no keep bets on any markets surely. |
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It seems they're saying there's a known bug with the Correct Score market that stops them enabling Keep Bets.
Which begs the question, why not fix it? |
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Some customers have reported recently that they have had problems with high memory usage when using Betfair. We’re pleased to report that we applied a fix to the bug earlier today that should resolve the majority of these issues. We will keep up a continuum of performance improvements in this area to erode remaining problems.
Doesn't look to me as it's fixed. I haven't been much on Betfair today, but the little I've done has made the memory usage increase heavily. |
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I gave up with Firefox as betfair was unusable on Saturday and tried Chrome. Much nicer and even BF runs smoothly.
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