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luckylucas.
In this example: "3 runner event lays a) 3 (33.3%) b) 3 (33.3%) c) no prices If I was to submit a bet on option c at 2.0 then I would be matched at 2.0 and the layers would be matched equal amounts at 3.0. This is a 116.7% book. BetFair keep the 16.7%. This is happening. It is quite easy to repeat yourself should you wish to try. |
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grafec 08 Mar 18:22 Ghetto Joe: "3 runner event lays a) 3 (33.3%) b) 3 (33.3%) c) no prices Anyone backing c should get odds of 3 as A & B odds mean a balanced 100% book would give odds of 3" Ok, try this: If I was to submit a bet on option c at 2.0, why should I get 3.0? Should not each layer get a better price than 3.0? Surely each layer has the right to best price available as well as the new arrival in the market ie. everyone should get the weighted value between 2.0 and 3.0 which achieves a 100% book. Happy to be contradicted. because the best available price applies to the bet the moment it hits the market. If not matched, will pass to the waiting to be matched pool of bets, at the asked price |
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Fair enough. I agree.
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steady 08 Mar 18:26
luckylucas. i urge you to TRY IT and prove us wrong. honestly, this is not something i would waste my time with, and neither would anyone else if it were not true. i cannot believe there is a single person on this thread not willing to believe the sheer weight of experienced people who believe this is immoral. i've done it 5 times now, every time my bet swallowed at the worst price, whilst a better one is available. and swallowed instantly at that. ...but not available on the option you selected? Which means you get matched at the price you requested by other money in the market...no problem...if it is different than that...then its the end of Betfair!!! |
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..but who says betfair take the slice and don't just remove the required amount to match the bet leaving the rest to be matched in the market when it is matched ??? or am I missing something? :(
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there is no other money in the market. go and try it, please. you will lose a couple of quid from the experience, but i think it's worthwhile in terms of understanding.
i enter a price where nothing is available (where i could lay or back the other outcome at a better price). my bet never reaches market, and i am left with the bad price i entered. this is matched by betfair. i can do this with odd amounts... 4.91, 26.34 etc each time match for the exact amount and each time instantly and at my bad odds. no excess arrived, and no evidence that anyone else grabbed it. in betangel API mode the money never even shows.. why, if i enter a price which is bad should i have this taken instantly by the exchange using their own hardware to prevent other users getting the spoils, or letting me have a chance to cancel. only the exhcange can do this with zero seconds reaction time and at no risk. |
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Lukey
i laid at 18 in the example above, why didn't they match me at the 1.07 laying? |
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marcus, it looks like i do have time to call you, but really i don't lol this surfing time is thinly disguised time with the missus.. im on the laptop while watching tv ;)
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this is interesting
laying, in the same market, overs at 60 for 1p 1.02 to back unders - my bet not matched Jolly Green Giant gone down the pub? |
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no worries at all mate lol
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ah!
laid at 60 for 2, it came back completely matched |
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lukester
two examples right there for you m8 matched at 60s when 1.03 was availiable to me |
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I still see no evidence of betfair taking a slice or anyone getting matched at a price they didn't request ?
Some of the money from 1.07 was used to cover the 18 was it not? |
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nope
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the man marcus 08 Mar 18:41
lukester two examples right there for you m8 matched at 60s when 1.03 was availiable to me but is that not the point? they have explained you get the requested price. |
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the man marcus 08 Mar 18:42
nope how do mean no, so no money went from 1.07?...where did it come from then? and if that is the case I suggest you leave the site now!! |
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I observed bets were kept for 3sec (3sec delay to cacel our bet) before we are able to cancel it. It is perfectly possible betfair holding our bet so they can arb and get free money. Now i dont have trust that betfair is a fair platform for backers and layers.
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luckylucas, I will assume you are just taking time to grasp this. So here are 2 examples. rather than just type something esle I suggest you work through it carefully.
It's a 2-way market, options A and B. There exist no money in option A, but lots wanting to back option B at 1.5 1) I submit a 100 back of option A at odds of 3.0. It's matched correctly by backing option B for 400 at odds of 1.5. 2) I submit a 100 back of option A at odds of 2.0. It's matched by backing option B for 200 at odds of 1.5. In the second example, should A win, I get 100 profit. But 200 is taken from the guy who layed me at 1.5. |
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Lay Backer's Odds Backer's Stake Payout Liability
Template: MLE Over 4.5 Goals 18 6.00 102.00 Ref: 4689891847 Bet matched: 18:08 08-Mar-08 Template: MLE 60 2.00 118.00 Ref: 4690145413 Bet matched: 18:40 08-Mar-08 market is so skinny and idel it was easy to monitor volume increased as well only increased by my bets |
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Who says 200 is taken from the guy offering 1.5
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No, you're right. That's not a good example is it?
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just to clarify, in the above two examples there was money trying to back unders at 1.07 and 1.02 respectively
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So, you're point luckylucas is that the only party who loses is the one who is not being given the best odds available?
And Betfair does not gain... |
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so your lay was spread evenly amongst the first in the queue at their requested odds ? or am I completely lost here :^0
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From the bet Angel site
"2. The limitation to any change we make to bet matching is performance. It would be unacceptable to customers for bet matching performance to deteriorate, and calculating the best price a customer could have been matched at is computationally more expensive than just using the requested price. We are however working on doing exactly that. There is no guarantee that a fast enough method exists to perform this calculation, but if it does we would expect to have this in place within the next few weeks." The part about a fast enough method does not ring true to me. Even if it was they could retrospectively pass the price improvement to the customer when the market is settled. For those that have run tests are the Bet Angel answers correct in saying that a back order will first attempt to match against the lay queue before any synthetic matching is used ? |
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grafec 08 Mar 18:53
So, you're point luckylucas is that the only party who loses is the one who is not being given the best odds available? And Betfair does not gain... yes....if not, it is the end of betfair and the gambling commission and the government with the aid of the bookies will take great delight in highlighting this!!! |
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there was no-one in the overs queue mate, not a soul
but both times i came back matched without my bet appearing on the system no-one, other than me and betfair, saw my lays |
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Why are they posting info regarding this on the bet angel site , surely 1300+ on their own forum should be enough to get them to at least post some details about the bet matching.
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I've just checked the Gambling Comission website concerning Gambling Codes Of Practice:
"The rules of games, odds, house edge and average return to the player must all be clearly displayed, and operators must have well-publicised complaints procedures that include an external, independent element." ...and elsewhere... "All operators in the gambling industry must follow these conditions and codes if they want to run a gambling business in Britain from 1 September 2007" Betfair is in a clear breach of this by not having admitted to this new house edge, and warrants immediate investigation by the GC. Either it wasn't passed by the GC, or it was passed by them and they did not understand the implications of the changes. They need to be made to understand. |
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but I thought there was money waiting.....
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1300+ posts
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luckylucas
the only money waiting to be matched was in the unders queue, nothing whatsoever was in the overs queue when unders was 1.06/1.07 i laid overs at 18, matched INSTANTLY at 18 despite no money there when unders was 1.02/1.03 i laid overs at 60, matched INSTANTLY at 60 despite no money there |
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is there a current market i can test this on ?
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"For those that have run tests are the Bet Angel answers correct in saying that a back order will first attempt to match against the lay queue before any synthetic matching is used ?"
Judge, by this you are saying, if there is money available to back, and you ask for it, do you get it ? as in, like it always has been... Yes. |
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sorry Marcus, but is that not the point, no money on your selection, so it is matched from the money in the opposite side of the market.
Laying Overs being the same as backing unders |
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I already broached that with The Magician in a different way. Imagine how massively valuable to anyone beating the clock with an early view of placed positions would be in horse racing .. if you decided as a bookmaker would .. to lay more of the informed money .. The Magician doesnt see this as a natural progression .. why not ... bookmakers do it.
morris 07 Mar 22:40 One thing we have learnt is that people like the Magician who cream of profits through identifying **s don't seem to have a major problem with BF betting with absoloutely zero risk at all.( Although betting with fast pics is tantamount to genecide. We should just call it the ** club. |
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no it wasn't Luke
i wasn't matched, as you can see by copy/paste, at the equivalent of backing at 1.07 or 1.02 |
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if there's no money on your selection, but you could lay or back the other selection.. you shouldn't ruddy get matched by the platform provider ! the money does not come from the other selection... sure, betfair square off on the other selection, but they do so at a profit. they match your bet instantly at the price you asked for - a worse price than is available and give you no chance to cancel. how can this be right LL ?
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the man marcus 08 Mar 19:05
no it wasn't Luke i wasn't matched, as you can see by copy/paste, at the equivalent of backing at 1.07 or 1.02 but they have said you get the requested odds if cross matched.....the only way you could prove anything is knowing what was removed from the opposite side of the market! |
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how can this be right LL ?
It isn't if thats happening as I have already stated, but I have still not seen any evidence this is happening...just lots of people adding 2+2 and getting 5 |