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manchild,
no offence taken mate. |
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Or as I stated to my wife so she could understand.
She has 50 to buy a pair of shoes, but the shop has them at 55. The shop tells her to leave the 50 with them and when the price drops they will sell her the shoes for 50. She is happy, all she has to do is to wait. However the shop manager nips to one of their other stores who is selling the same shoes for 45 and buys them for 45. The shop then informs my wife that her shoes are ready to collect. She bought them for 50, so she is happy. However the shop has pocketed the 5. Who should keep this 5? The shop or my wife? |
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nice one FBS :)
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Q. If Betfair can match across selections why arent those prices displayed in the market view?
A. We believe that if a customer sees a price on the screen and they place a bet to match it they will expect to be matched at that price even if they request a worse price. We therefore expect to display prices that could be matched across selections once we have an efficient way of providing best execution across selections We are supposed to wait for that ? Shut down the matching bot NOW, or shut down betfair. Come on GC, anyone, people are being ripped-off and most don't even know about it. There is no other alternative. |
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it's the weekend medemi. the GC will all be in the bar at the Golf Club this afternoon.
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FBS.
2.50 should be the answer. Everybody likes a bargain.! |
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it's the weekend medemi. the GC will all be in the bar at the Golf Club this afternoon.
We're stuck with it then. While we're fighting for what's right the GC are sipping champaign at the expense of the taxpayer... Anyway, I thought I should mention I'm very proud of this bunch on here. :) |
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still struggling to see what all the fuss is about, so long as BF is being honest as per P17 - most people in here still think there are reds under the bed and there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
Overbroke markets are still occurring - the market's just becoming more efficient so the anomalies are hammered out quicker, which would happen anyway with more bots coming into the market. Until I see it making a difference to my trading and results, I won't be screaming blue murder about it like most of the lemmings.. |
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I guess I'm missing the point regarding best execution. Previously, if I placed a back at 1.01 I would get the best price available on that runner. If there were no prices available on that runner, I'd stay unmatched and get matched at 1.01 by the next lucky punter.
Isn't the same still true now except my 1.01 is likely to be taken by Betfair rather than another punter? If I back at 1.01 into a market with little liquidity, I'm going to end up in trouble either way. |
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zeditave
How are they being honest when they haven't even made an announcement about it having introduced it weeks ago? |
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someone on another forum has come up with a set of scenarios to help describe what is going on. in the process however I think he's shown that what betfair are doing is essentially front running everyone's bets. examine the following, both slightly different, but both the same result, and since a back of one outcome is a lay of another and vice versa, what is the real difference between these ??
2) On a 2-runner market, if I try to back 500 @ 1.8 and there is at least 500 available to lay the other runner @ 2.0, I get my 500 matched @ 1.8 and BF arbs it against the 2.0, pocketing the difference. 3) On a 2-runner market, if I try to back 500 @ 1.8 and there is at least 500 available to back the same runner @ 2.0, I get my 500 matched @ 1.8 and BF sweeps the 2.0, then arbs it against my 1.8, pocketing the difference? Both times the same result for joe punter, betfair takes out the same money, one is front running, the other... front running disguised as a matching engine ???? this really makes me sick. * |
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steady, it looks like 1 is true but 2 isn't surely. If I try and back at 1.8 and 2.0 is available on the same runner then I get 2.0.
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i should point out the last scenraio is not happening, but the outcome is the same ! so is there really a difference ???
i doubt betfair intended to do that, but essentially it is what they are doing. |
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I think the difference is that in 2 (I said 1 but meant 2), it would have matched against another punter at 1.8. Not sure I see the issue
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i just cant believe betfair have done this. anything in the papers yet ?
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fk, it helps to think of this in a 2 runner market. there is evens available to you to back player A, yet you are being given 1.8.
theres a difference, the evens could be in a form of laying player B (happening now). or it could be a back of player A at Evens (front running). But if the outcome is the same, and given the former that you should get that evens lay of player B, is this not still front running ? |
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not that i can detect - i've had a quick trawl of the news section of google. you have to remember that betfair place a lot of advertising with newspapers ....... ever seen many reports about the horrific discoveries made in testing done on various GM foodstuffs? no? well, that's because the biotech companies would withdraw their advertising if it was printed / broadcast. obviously betfair don't account for such a huge portion of revenue, but the principle still applies - papers will be reluctant to bite the hand that feeds them.
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zeditave
do you work for Betfair? |
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I think I understand what you're saying but how is this different from what would have happened before the change? There always was the issue of backing A = laying B and the prices were rarely identical so there was probably always a little scope for getting better value by choosing one over the other. This is still the case - you get best execution on the runner you bet on but what you ask for if that bet is satified from the other runner.
Off swimming now but you guys keep enjoying yourselves - this thread is a corker. |
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Will be difficult to keep this out of the papers IMHO.
Lots of squealing and gnashing of teeth from those that rely on market inefficiencies as their primary strategy. Doubly annoying will be the fact that Betfair's bottom line will be greatly improved at their expense. Prediction - plethora of Betfair Bots appearing on eBay soon. |
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It doesn't just affect bot writers.
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boycee, i think what you'll find it annoyance from all manner of different users.. i personally don't use market inefficiencies as a route to profit - i used to, but i havent for a few years. I'm a positional player, i take big hits and big wins, hopefully in the right ratio :)
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i would also say that if they did this with best price matching it might even help me a bit... but i'd still betfair rather didn't get involved in the markets.. i think it's too close to a conflict of interests.. it appears they have already crossed this line !!
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It's disheartning that posters like zeditave and boycee can't see the wood from the trees.
This will put almost every Betfair user out of pocket whether they can see that or not. :( |
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It's all money leaking (or gushing) out of the markets, rather than being exchanged between bettors. It is now a three way arrangement with one of the players having an impossible advantage.
And I for one don't want to end up a boiled frog...they'll start with this, and before long other 'market efficiency drives' will come into place. |
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Haven't read far back enough to tell if someone has posted this but here's a link to the latest betangel newsletter with some answers.
http://www.betangel.com/downloads/2007-03-Newsletter.pdf |
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wiljons 06 Mar 18:09
Scripophilist. 06 Mar 18:03 This is correct as I have spoken to Betfair already and they have confirmed this. It's a new matching engine and not an end user or Betfair stealing pennies. If a bet is unmatched then they are squaring it off on other unmatched bets --------------------------------------- This sounds fine to me, taken from the other thread. Whats the problem with doing this? |
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Nobody has yet made a list of the many advantages of the new system.
You a very negative bunch Everytime we have a new interface you all moan We get the very good aussie wallet and you all moan Now we have a system which helps us have our bets matched and you all moan. Typical |
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The more I think about this the more worried I become.
Take the following scenario in play in a tennis match. A: 2.22 (1000) 2.28 (1000) B: 1.8 (1000) 1.84 (1000) Assume there is no other money in the market. It's a crucial point and someone jams a back of B in @ 1.5 for 5000 before any of the offers are canceled (they could be quick or they could be mistaken - whatever). Previously, the 1.5 would match the 1.8 and there would be a brief overbroke book while the market sorted itself out. Now, the 1.5 still gets the 1.8 but now takes the 2.28 as well, although not @ 2.28 but @ 3. Betfair make the difference. Crucially as well, anyone who tried to take the 2.28 but was slower than the 1.5 jammer will have missed the 2.28. The tennis inplay markets will leak HUGE amounts of money in this manner. Betfair now are effectively profiting nearly every user mistake AND from anyone who has a speed advantage. Unbelievable. |
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Scripo and the GC duped into thinking this is an ok way of doing things then?!
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yep. my initial thoughts are that it will kill off point by point betting on tennis (some may say that's no bad thing, end of the advantage for courtsiders, satellite people, and etc but that's a separate argument). people will only bet between games.
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I guess most of you are motivated by self interest and greed. Some of obviously employed bots to skim profits from honest betfarains for years.
Others have tried to scare people with spoof bets trying to drive the market overround. Those who are now bleating that the poor innocent betfarians will be more likely to make mistakes are the very people who have been profiting from those mistakes for the last five years. Hypocracy is rife on this thread imo. I can understand why many oppose the changes , but please accept your objections are purely selfish. |
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what is incredible is the absence of bot or a worthy bot number 2 to put any positive slant on this new stealth tax on in running punters
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lippy, for such an intelligent bloke you are being remarkably obtuse. Do you really not understand the concern, or are you on a permanent wind-up ?
I cut right back on my activity on here after the clock was proven to being beaten. I have given up tennis altogether ... I simply have no faith whatsoever in tennis in-play. Betfair has never protected the little guy from the users with "an advantage". Now it has gone the next logical step, and given itself an "advantage". |
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I agree with you totally Spassky.
Although we dont know for certain that betfair has given itself this big advantage. As for being on permanent wind up , i have to confess i am. !! Been trading solidly for twelve hours and find the forums a great stress reliever, anything i say should though be taken with a pinch of salt |
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In all honesty my biggest concern is that this will help the hooverers.
The quickest finger can now hoover both sides with one big bet |
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you ready for that game on ICC yet spassky?
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morris 07 Mar 22:40 One thing we have learnt is that people like the Magician who cream of profits through identifying **s don't seem to have a major problem with BF betting with absoloutely zero risk at all.( Although betting with fast pics is tantamount to genecide. We should just call it the ** club. Morris when did you decide to be a pro-active enemy of mine, I thought our relationships was fine I will point out 1) I did not know about this in advance - I found out on this thread 2) It has been discussed in betting circles for years - and I had discussed such matching engines with numerous people for at leats 3 years in and out of betfair 3) On the very first page I said the critcal questions is DO BETFAIR GIVE BEST EXECUTION 4) I have since realised they might not be allowed to what I have said is that betfair need to protect betfair in the long term, and if that is designing a fair transparent matching engine that takes money from professional botters that are net extractors and passes that money on to more 'normal' punters - and that protects betfair in the long term, then that is a good thing for betfair I have also said it MIGHT be a slightly bad things for me (when introduced to my markets) in the short term but POTENTIALLY a good thing for me in the long term The reason that i think people like you and I seem to disagree, is that I think I can outperform the market FOREVER - and as such I am happy to take at a small rate, people with less ongoing advantages such as fast pics, overound bots etc etc, need to get what they can while they can - as so they yell about changes that removes thier income. that is fine but dont cloud the issue by attacking me, and infering I am **, I have explained to you on an number of occasions that the bets I place against suspect non-triers only recoups my existing potential loss form them (on average) so I would ask you to reconsider you post |
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No lippy. On one side it hoovers, on the other side Betfair hoovers by proxy.
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lol, lippy, i have had three hours sleep !!! I couldn't beat boycotts mum in this state !!
will speak tomorrow night, although have to go out for a meal first so may not make it . |