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i_love_bots_me 08 Mar 00:36 Either this is a load of ****, or their new algorithm isn't working correctly 'cos my bot still makes as much as it ever did. Don't fret boys and girls There is definitely no overround that bots can take anymore, how can you beat betfair, they are in front of you. Doesn`t make sense if there is never a situation where there is more than a 100% book how can your bot still work? Could you explain this? |
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Carsten19
There is definitely no overround that bots can take anymore, My P&L says different, that is why I refuse to believe this is happening right now on a large scale. |
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IF BETFAIR TRULY ARE SCAMMING US THEN WE ARE ENTITLED TO A CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT
I have not researched this particular case, and I am sure Betfair are reading this post (in a quite concerned state I imagine) I know that this only really effects people with hoovering bots anyway, but nonetheless if it does not say in the terms and conditions that Betfair participate in their markets then they are committing fraud and should be very careful indeed they could find "punters" claiming money back off of them, since it was laundered in a fraudulent environment of falsely priced and manipulated markets however until we know: a) they are definitely taking the over round b) it says for sure in the t&c they don't participate we can not take any action |
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they might just ban you if you do something like that pk1 against it.
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i_love_bots_me
they haven't rolled it out on all markets yet - you may change your tune shortlly.. |
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hank, you may well be right. TBH it doesn't really matter, come April 14th data usage charges effectivly stop all this type of bot anyhow.
Even if it does happen, I still don't believe betfair will take the 40p in my example above - the user will benefit from the new matching in my opinion. If they wanted to make more money, they'd just up the commission% and take extra on every transaction. Up to now, it's all just hearsay |
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well, I think BF is commiting a huhe strategic error by skimming the markets, and they are in danger of killing the golden eggs hen ... they each day look more as a normal bookie ... perhaps this is the idea ... and they will merge with billyh and back all happy, only that the big markets will evaporate or migrate to a true exchange ... think about it, BF
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I have read some of the earlier posts and if my under standing is correct all that is happening is the new matching system will convert the bet into say a back of the other player say in a tennis player instead of a lay if the odds are correct.
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have you seen the new rules for inrunning?
Customers should be aware that: 1. transmissions described as "live" by some broadcasters may actually be delayed; 2. the extent of any such delay may vary, depending on the set-up through which they are receiving pictures or data; and 3. Betfair reserve the right to use their processesing and data feed speed advantages to match inrunning bets. :-) |
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All I want to know now is if Betfair will put up an OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT before this thread hits 10k posts? we've pretty much exhausted all possible discussion. It's just the odd new poster showing up and saying "But hey...." and then he;s corrected with arguments since page no 2.
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hazel
That would be funny if it wasn't true :) |
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i went to check the conditions on an NHL hockey match. I wasn't 100% sure if that's a joke.
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zeeny
You know it's bad when 1000 posts on there hasn't ben an official statement by bot. |
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I noticed something when I tried some test which maybe some other people can confirm here.
When I tried to create a less than 100% market by providing the best prices for both runners in a 2 runner market. The market can actually be less than 100%. Meaning the bet matching program will not match/arb your bets against yourself |
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What i find amusing is that we have probably all been playing on these adjusted markets and nobody even noticed a difference.
Now we know everyone in uproar , yet the only people suffering are the evil bot operators who have been skimming our money for years |
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Which will be first?
5/4 Racing Post will write about this 9/4 There will be a Post on service annoucnements about this 9/2 Bot will post on this thread 13/2 this thread will reach 2000 posts [102% book no bots or betfair monsters allowed all winning bets are palapbale errors] |
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If I place a request for 1k 2000 posts @ 15/2 will I automatically be matched if the book is unbalanced?
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Only if betfair are about to post about it imo
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Just to sum up we have the following questions bf still really need to answer?
have bf informed their customers they were planning to move the goalposts? have bf moved the goalposts? are bf taking advantage of their position? do bf have an unfair advantage? do the bf management know how much of an effect this change carries? do the current management have absolutely no idea of how this impacts users? have the bf management actually used the exchange for anything other than 2 bets to see how the new matching system works? did they even realise the new matching system affects every user, not just those with the old 2 way bots? is the current perogative to maximise short term revenue at any cost? is bot not talking because he realises how much of a ** up this was? |
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this will not die i notice that the people who are posting on here are the 1% who now make betfair pay to a greater or lesser amount i doubt very much that the other 98.5% of losers care and of course the other 0.5% of position takers think they have found the holy grail but they are in for a shock imho.end of rant.
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who gives 2 shiny sh its? its only pennies
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Pennies? lol. It will make Betfair millions every year as long as it is allowed to continue. Millions straight from OUR pockets.
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I think bf have taken their customers for fools.
What are all the things that people most hate, or have expressed most suspicion or vehemence over in the past? 1) Trap betting; 2) Clock-beating, or the appearance thereof; 3) Hoovering; 4) Overround scraping; 5) Cross-runner arbing, giving the bettor the worst poss. price. Supposing that bf are skimming the spread and denying either side best execution, then this 'matching' procedure (in being equivalent to a bet but not subject to a clock has elements of ALL of these. I only hope the stink is so great that it never gets implemented on the horse IR markets. Give me choice between the chance of my mistake, the chance of my counterparty's mistake and the likelihood of the bots sopping up both OR the certainty of bf giving me no more than what I ask for and profiting from the slips of all, then please, please give me the first. |
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im never going to read all 1100 posts on that threads.. are you basically saying:
if i put a bet on at 1.5 when 1.7 is available before i press submit.. i get matched at 1.7 if i put a bet on at 1.5 when 1.7 becomes available during my 5 sec delay i get matched at 1.5 and betfair keeps the 0.2 if i try to back player a at 2.0 but player b is available to lay at 1.9 i will be matched with the lay of 1.9 and betfair keep the 0.1 difference? i've probably completely missed the point(no tennis jokes please) |
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Another thing it looks like they are doing is using this to scoop up all the wrong price keep bets after a goal in football matches.The concerning bits for me is by making a mistake bet the option to cancel and looks like zero and the fact that people placing bets in-running are being denied the best price due to the lack of 5 second delay for the machine which is a bot in all but name.
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Andy Murray,read Knight Rider's examples on the soccer forum thread at the bottom of the page.
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Andy Murray, your first and third claims seem right. On the third you will get the price you asked for, not best execution in an overbroke book, which is what is angering many people.
On your second point, there is dispute over whether the cross-market matching algorithm is beating the clock or not. When the matching procedure works in an unorthodox way pairing up cross-market prices, it is not subject to a delay in that it executes instantly as soon as your 5 secs. are up. This strikes some people as unfair as it can be deemed to be placing a synthetic bet on behalf of bf. In your e.g. (as I understand it; I bet on horses only) the better offer is some way behind yours in the queue, and provided you could be filled in on your own runner market or through the equivalent prices on the other runners, then you would get what you asked for, not the better price. |
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Sorry, misunderstood the timing of the other bet in your second example. Perhaps someone else could say who has queue priority here--the first matching bet in the single runner market or the earlier prospective matches for the other options.
Your bet is only referred to the other runner markets when you can't be matched in your own at the point of the bet hitting the queue. |
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The implications of this have only really hit home since last night as it took some time to wade through the thread.
There's some very knowledgable people making contributions on this thread so i'd like to know what are we going to do about it. Roll over and accept it or try and instigate some form of consultation with betfair and find a way round this. In its current form i think its unacceptable and betfair doesn't appear to have grasped the consequences of their actions here. |
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Would BF be allowed to get away with this sort of activety if they were regulated by the FSA? Somehow I think not. The fact they have introduced this using stealth tactics would also suggest that some of the powers that be know the bad feeling this would cause and that on the face of it what they are doing is unethical. Talk about showing contempt for your client base!
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I wonder how long it will be before bot or another bf representatve appear on the thread.
I fear that they will hide behind semantics distinguishing a 'matching engine' from a 'bot' and the exchange having a 'position' from its having a 'liability'. If they gave best execution to at least one side of the bet and redistributed their skim to charity or towinners pro rata, I wd accept it as having some benefits and some drawbacks on pre- in-play markets. |
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OK, how about this that I have noticed.
Boro v Cardiff. Boro to back bets are up as follows; 20 at 1.73 300 at 1.72 In the past, if you put in a back of 200 at 1.72 you would have 20 matched at 1.73 and 180 matched at 1.72. Now the bf bot sees your bet coming, takes the 1.73 first, and matches your bet at 1.72 entirely. Try it if you don't believe me. A few years back a numpty tried to back a no-hoper for $4 at 1000 in golf, but put in 1000 at 4 instead. His fall was naturally broken by all the lay bets from 1000 downwards - but now the bf bot would take these first, and match his $1000 only at 4. I am seething. |
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Manchild. That doesn't happen on the bets I have tried. You still get 1.73 we are talking about betfair arbing when the lay side of the opposition team is at a better value than 1.73 and you cannot be fully matched on the back side.
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Roger, I understand and agree about that.
On football markets I have recently noticed that I miss out on the higher prices when putting in a big back at a lower price. |
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roger is correct,that's the real issue at stake here,bets on the other side are being taken by betfair and redistributed to match your request at only the price you requested,not the true odds if it happens to be higher.
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I went to a BF 3 hour training the other week, and we were told if say you wanted to back in running and get matched it was best to enter 1.01 and you would automatically get matched at the best available price. Looks like that does not apply now then?
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You were really told that? Even without this new system in place that seems like a suicidal way of going about your punting...
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glad i never bothered with any of that betfair training. what if all other bets are cancelled and you match at 1.01?
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Saluting Darren Lockyer 08 Mar 08:19
roger is correct,that's the real issue at stake here Apologies - I was not belittling the implications of your point. I agree that it is scandalous - and the only solution I can see is to use only one side of a tennis match (player a or b). I just think there is more to it. Too many coincidences. |
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What is really scandalous is that the opportunity for an overround to occur in a two runner market is only possible because Betfair have a strange and unnecessary representation of the market. Instead of back and lay for A and B the market would be better represented by just a back and lay for A.
There are two reasons I guess why we don't have this representation: 1) it's simpler to understand if A and B are both there 2) it allows granularity at certain prices (1.01/1.02 does not give you as many options as backing laying at all prices from 51 to 100) Now this is how Betfair are currently exploiting it: Market A: 1.2(2000) 1.25 (5000) B: 5.2 (400) 11 (300) This is a very common kind of market in running. The purple site would mirror the prices (represent 5.2 to back as 1.24 to lay and represent 1.2 to back as 6.0 to lay) and you would see there: A: 1.2(2000) 1.24 (1680) B: 5.2 (400) 6.0 (400) Of course the whole market (best prices) could be represented by: A 1.2 (2000) 1.24 (1680) The Betfair representation of the market is the only one that allows them to arb their customers. Any punter who lays B @ 6.2 or more is going to get skimmed. This is despite the fact that 400 @ 6 IS available in the market - you just have to know that backing A @ 1.2 is IDENTICAL to laying B @ 6. Betfair profit by knowing this. They match the foolish layers 10s at 10s and arb it with the 6s (1.2) the other side. |