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These 410 comments are related to the topic:
Tyson Fury - gotta love his style!
Tyson Fury - gotta love his style!
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Replies: 410
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Joshua wins, very impressive, brave fight from Whyte
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7th ko
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I am not sure the boxing game is about beauty Tommy
All Tyson Fury did was express values from a time slightly in the past now I prefer them values myself, todays values baffle me |
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Enjoyed the fight. Lot of credit to Whyte who was very game. Joshua will have learned some useful stuff in that fight. Maybe more than in all his previous wins put together.
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Bruno had a great body. Norton may have had the greatest physique of any heavy. Doesn't mean a great deal. Joshua was too caught up in the emotion of wanting to damage Whyte that he forgot the cardinal rule of creating your opportunities and he got tagged a couple of times. Even so his stamina was good and he will learn not to get emotionally engaged. Adrenaline is great for a street fight but keep your brain in the fridge in the ring. Lennox used to have a nap until it was time to warm up. On balance I'm in a better place regarding what I think Joshua can do than I was before the fight. Which may seem paradoxical but like I said it was a great fight to learn some valuable things which will help him as he moves into world class.
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Ebulgery, of course the boxing game isn't about beauty - but it appeals to our human notion of aesthetics when someone is a champ and also looks like a champ.
Ali set the trend. Some of the photos taken of him in the sixties/early seventies still stand up today as magnificent portraits of a beautiful man who was also the World Heavyweight Champion, a title once so revered by all - even non-sports fans. We also had Norton, as EO has referred to, and Foreman had the most magnificent physique in his early years. Joshua reminds me very much of Foreman body-wise. Remember the horrible 80s when so many so-called boxers were lard buckets with limited ability? It used to make me wince to see them even step into the ring. It really was a great test for Joshua last night and he came out of it learning a lot - and admitting to the fact. All good stuff. This is a purple patch for British boxers at the moment, with so many World Champs and so many other fighters bubbling under - and everyone of them are really skilled and honed. That really is something to be excited about. |
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One of the iconic photos of Ali, underwater, in 1961 before he was champ:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d2/f8/cb/d2f8cb92ab175f5020628e48789f16d4.jpg Just perfection |
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In terms of physique I'd say he's not a million miles away from someone like Cleveland Williams seen here fighting Liston. He's just about four inches taller and thirty or so pounds heavier. It puts it into context when you think someone like David Haye would have been seen as a pretty big heavy if you went back pre 80's. Even Foreman used to come in at a similar weight to Haye and he was naturally a significantly bigger man.
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Oops. Forgot the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbpM99wD2M |
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Excellent link, EO - and yes, it's amazing to think these days that most heavyweights pre 80s were around the 15 and a half stone mark (or even lighter).
But, as seen in that fight, what a far better contest it made for when heavyweights were more mobile because they weren't so heavy - even though they had the height. The link also showed just why they thought Ali (then, Clay) would be 'murdered' by Liston in their first title fight and why Clay was 6/1. What a bruiser Liston was. |
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Well yes tommy I suppose boxing has a beauty of its own
This country seems fortunate with its heavyweights at the moment We are living in the era of the 'Super Heavyweights', I think more food and better food is producing bigger people and modern training methods The old fashioned boxing divisions could be a little out of date, they all need to move up in weight a bit? That was a stiffer test for Anthony Joshua last night, but he has come through with flying colours, his future looks bright at the moment Although I still think Boxing is an extremely hard way to make a living |
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The problem with Liston is nobody had a clue how old he was and was almost certainly a fair bit older than his published age when he fought Ali. One thing which is kryptonite for the older fighter is speed and Ali had it in abundance as a young man. Marry that up with the fact that he was a prime physical specimen and a big heavy for the time and you had the perfect heavyweight.
Good point you made about the fighting. That's what they did. Not like two drunks holding each other up. The problem being that none of todays light heavies or cruisers can offset the physical disadvantages in height and weight to some of these big heavies despite their superior speed and footwork. Even arguably the greatest lighter guy to go up in Holyfield avoided the biggest guys where he could and didn't have a good record against the best of em in Bowe and Lewis when he had to fight them. |
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On Liston though people forget what a good jab he had when he worked it. Him and Holmes were a joy to watch in that respect.
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“All Jews and gentiles are devils… Blacks are no devils… Everything black people doing wrong comes from (the white people): Drinking, smoking, prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, gambling: It all comes from (the white people)”
. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/12/13/muhammad-jews-are-devils-ali-was-the-bbcs-sports-personality-of-the-century-but-tyson-fury-is-beyond-the-pale/ |
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Yes but Fury is the wrong end of the BBC affirmative action Dulux wall chart.
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Good point you made about the fighting. That's what they did. Not like two drunks holding each other up. Yes EO, and that's what was so sickening come the 80s when that's what the majority of heavyweight contests tended to be. It really saddened my dear old dad who would tut and holler when ever he saw such an abuse of the skilful art. It's so much better this last decade or so - but I agree with you that because of this era of the 'super-sizers' it's very rare that a fast 'normal' heavyweight can get the better of one of the monsters by sheer skill. Which is a pity - but terrific when it comes off. |
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BB
I forgive Ali, I really liked him, I don't care if he has a few weird views As for Tyson Fury, well I agree with him, so no problem there with me Also these are only WORDS remember that |
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tommy when you talk about how bad the 80s heavyweight scene was you're forgetting one mike gerard tyson.
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I agree freddiek, awesome at his best, I have never seen a fighter who was able to generate so much menace is this man did
A great many of his opponents were beaten before they ever got in the ring with him Later on he was not quite so good, Evander Holyfield did a job on him. But at his best, he terrified the lights out of anyone else, and he always had his big punch |
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No I'm not, Freddiek - as he was the one bright light of that miserable decade - and by heck, when he came on the scene it was like a throwback to the glory days - or even something even more special
But,on reflection, it's probably because the heavyweight division was so inferior then that he looked so magnificent. |
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I think it is sad Mike Tyson is not allowed in this country now
Of course he did wrong but he has served his sentence My usual complaint, our society is being ruled by women, who are nothing if not vindictive  |
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You're not wrong ebulgerry, William Congreve had them sussed.......
"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned .. |
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People romanticise Tyson burnishing his many attributes and glossing over his flaws.
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His flaws have little to do with his boxing have they?
Yes he is a flawed man, but you must realise the sort of environments these boxers come from? Very much from the underclass and often very violent environments, don't expect Saints We all make mistakes, he did |
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He had one major flaw. Like all bullies, he didn't like getting hit back and didn't know what to do when he was. You mention Holyfield. At the end of the first round of their first meeting, Tyson punched Holyfield clearly after the bell. The ref jumped between them but Holyfield hit him back anyway. As he sat on his stool, his trainer Don Turner said to him "all you gotta do is stay calm and it's you... you the bully in here, he ain't the bully." It may not be as memorable as Angelo Dundee's "you're blowing it now, son," or Eddie Futch's "it's all over. No one will forget what you did here today," but it is to me. 14/1!
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Well that is your view Mikael
But in Boxing I should think everyone gets hit back...part of the art of Boxing is to defend against or avoid this or I don't think anyone would last long in Boxing Also I don't think anyone would win many fights if they were not prepared to 'Bully' their opponent..I do not think Tyson differs from any other boxer in this respect. Tyson projected himself as a 'Bully' in order to psyche his opponents out. If an opponent doubted his confidence and/or courage it made Tyson's job a lot easier. This is quite common in boxing and other sports. It is to Holyfield's credit he did not allow this to happen. He also worked out how he could beat Tyson. I did not see the fight. I don't know if it is on the Web anyway? Tyson's biggest complaint after the fight was that whenever Tyson got in close enough to unload his punches, Holyfield was holding on to him. Tyson felt the referee should have stopped this.. Holyfield does not appear to have had much trouble hitting Tyson. There was a rematch but I don't Tyson was fairing any better than first time round, when he resorted to the 'Luiz Saurez' defence biting off part of Hollyfield's ear. I thought Tyson should been banned for life, he may claim to be an animal, but he really cannot start attacking opponents with his teeth. It is not in the rules. I think on his ability, he can be thrown into the ring as one of the better heavyweights. As for his crime and other character flaws, I can live with them myself But everybody has to make this decision for themselves |
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Also I don't think anyone would win many fights if they were not prepared to 'Bully' their opponent..I do not think Tyson differs from any
other boxer in this respect. You've obviously never seen Floyd Mayweather (49-0) fight. |
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For tommy.
[ This image is no longer available. ] |
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His flaws had everything to do with his boxing ebul. Some men are made in the furnaces of hell and will claw their way out if necessary. D'Amato created a monster in terms of his abilities but also contributed to him being a weak man mentally. That was a problem which was exploited by all the people who beat him and some of those who didn't. Tyson was a great on top fighter and completely hopeless at turning fights around where he was struggling. Which is often the case with those fighters who project the aura of menace instead of truly being menacing. I lost count of the fights where people had the temerity to wack him back and he had that little boy lost look on his face. Even in the first Bruno fight he didn't like Bruno roughing him up and looked completely sorry for himself sat in his corner before Bruno ran out of steam.
Non of the great fighters from history would have been in the least intimidated by Tyson and once you took that away from him he was a much diminished fighter. |
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I remember watching a fighter interviewed who worked with all three of Tyson, Holy and Lewis and his assessment closely corrolates with my own views of their merits. Tyson had the strongest single punch power. Lewis was the best boxer. Holyfield was the toughest man.
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Boxing will never be a mainstream sport again because of PPV. Greed over legacy.
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And some men take in Syrian refugees.
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Gone quiet again sucker?
Now that was ALOFS and you'll never live it down. Ever.  |
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Well you seem to have psychologically worked him out eternal..
A fighter may seem a bully because he dominates his opponent. In fact he is faced with a man of equal weight who has been trained to fight as he has, who will hit back when he can.In that sense it is deemed a fair contest. Other fearsome heavyweights I remember who appeared very menacing were Sonny Liston and George Foreman, both having a very hard punch. Ali beat them both as underdog. Still my best Heavyweight. Floyd Mayweather was an all time great Mikael he bullied many an opponent. |
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That's what people found hard to look beyond ebul. They were dazzled by his speed. In awe of his footwork and amazed by his unorthodox combinations. They didn't and possibly even now don't truly appreciate that the cherry on top of the cake was his indomitable spirit. The quest for victory. The refusal to succumb. He had that whereas Tyson didn't.
I remember writing a piece for a boxing publication many years ago about The Rumble In The Jungle and it's something which I don't think anybody else had seen about that fight to my knowledge. It's what happened in the first round. I'm sure you can get it up on you tube to check my assertions. He comes out to destroy Foreman mentally. What you never do in boxing is out of an orthodox stance throw right hand leads. They travel much further and so immediately hand the initiative to your opponent who will throw jabs which travel a much shorter distance. He did this quite deliberately to show George that his speed would embarrass the younger man. Of course Foreman being an absolute killer at this time and a great heavyweight in his own right didn't take this lying down and he was enraged by Ali's antics. If you see the film look at Ali as he stands up in his corner after that first round. Look closely. What do you see? That's right. Fear. It's there for about five seconds as he realises that what he intended to do to Foreman can't work because he simply doesn't have the legs to carry him for long enough. That's the beauty of Ali as a fighter. He doesn't crumble in the moment. He looks inside himself and asks what does he have to win this fight and he comes up with the answer. Heart. You see him at this moment give a brief nod. That is when Rope A Dope is born. Ali tried to be too clever after the fight because had he been straight with people his legend would have been even grater for that one moment when he looked into his soul and came up with gold. |
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That is an impressive post eternal I must admit
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I do still question you over Mike Tyson though....I never saw a coward sorry
I don't think anyone who gets into a Boxing ring is a coward, although some are more steadfast than others I just watched his fight against Hollyfield on Utube was a very good fight Hollyfield looked the bigger and stronger man, was always pushing Tyson back. He did hold on a bit inside but don't think that was reason for Tysons defeat.Tyson was not at his best, but I think he beaten by a better man on the day. A couple of times Tyson landed a good punch was not able to follow it up He has lost to Buster Douglas before this and been in prison for 3 years. I don't think he was as good as he had been. He seems to have financial problems now, often happens??? Seems a very mixed up man to me, instincts govern him a lot. But I wish him well. I will remember him when he was at his best |
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Tyson weighed in 7lb heavier than Holyfield for the first fight. In the final 31 fights of Tyson's career, ie. from the time he became champ against Trevor Berbick, he only fought one fighter who weighed less than Holyfield - Michael Spinks. He'd made a career out of KOing 'bigger and stronger' men. He got his ass handed to him by a blown up cruiserweight.
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You misconstrue what I'm saying ebul. Boxing is far too important not to be precise in what you are saying. I said Tyson was mentally weak. I don't recall ever saying any boxer is a coward. I've been in the ring a lot when I was younger, even sparring it can be a lonely place and I just don't see boxers in that way. Like I said in line with my previous experiences in life I choose specific words rather than others in order to illustrate a point.
Let me explain this using another word which I think illustrates my point more clearly and that is passivity. Hang with me while I explain. I've already said that Tyson was a great on top fighter. Maybe the best three round heavyweight in history. If he could put the hurt on you or intimidated you in that time he would invariably finish you off. Totally lethal. Did he ever let anybody off the hook? I'm struggling to recall. My point is that beyond those early rounds he was more greatly subject to the laws of diminishing returns than any great fighter I can think of. He fell off from an incredibly high point fairly quickly. He ran out of ideas. By the time he got to the middle rounds if he wasn't in control he fell into a virtual non aggression pact with his rival and was happy to take it the distance. You saw it so many times even early in his career against much inferior fighters who refused to budge. I can provide a list if you like and it doesn't make pretty reading. How many times did he stop an opponent in the later rounds? I'm struggling to remember any. He had quite a few points victories and also stoppage losses on his ledger. Don't get me wrong. He usually took his beatings like a man and tried to the end but he simply wasn't the same fighter against opponents who were able to withstand his early onslaught and then fired back. |