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These 273 comments are related to the topic:
Fake or Fortune - BBC1
Fake or Fortune - BBC1
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Replies: 273
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Very good programme , the so called expert wasn’t prepared to admit she had made a mistake
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@GLASGOWCALLING -- not sure how she stands with the auction house that sold it in the first place ?
It was a dealer that sold it, not an auction house. Browse & Darby, founded by the earlier Nicholson expert, Lillian Browse, the current owner's aunt. |
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Are they starting to manufacture stories just for the sake of making a programme ?
Ok the painting was left out of a book and this particular expect says she is doubtful, Why not take it to another expert |
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ok ramruma, thanks i thought she bought it via an auction house, i saw the browse and darby connection but for some
reason thought it was bought at an auction . ! |
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Why not take it to another expert
Well that sounds sensible, lfc1971. But this is the art world. And there, at any one time, there's often one expert in the world who is allowed to say what's real and what's fake. If that key authority says no, the rest of the art world tends to turn away and your painting becomes almost valueless. Completely nuts, but sadly the case. I'm not sure you could sue an auction house or a dealer for selling you a fake, just as long as the auction house/dealer had been selling it in good faith, and had disclosed all that they knew regarding provenance etc. If some 'authority' then comes along and decrees it to be a fake, that's not really the fault of the auction house or dealer. |
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@lfc1971 -- the book it was left out of was the artist's catalogue raisonné.
A catalogue raisonné is basically a list of all the artist's paintings, so if it is in the book then it is genuine and if it is out it is either a forgery or by someone else -- and that is how the big dealers, galleries and auction houses play the game. In this case it is the difference between a £200,000 William Nicholson still life, and a £500 chocolate box picture by an unknown artist. So that is why it was important to convince not just any expert but Patricia Reed who compiled the catalogue raisonné. |
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I watched someat called the Repair Shop yesterday for the first time. This Dutch fella came in with a pocket watch from his late grandmother. She was captured by the Japanese during the Second World War and had sewn the pocket watch into her dress. The only possession she managed to keep. They did an amazing job repairing it and get it working again and you could see how much it meant to the Dutch family to preserve the piece in her memory, when it was prsented to them fully repaired. A real feel good piece of tv.
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I hadn't realised that there was a new series until I saw this thread last night.
I've just watched the programme and with the amount of evidence collected I find the verdict baffling. It is theoretically possible that a student painted it using Nicholson's materials and with his blessing but no artist would then allow the trademark thumbprint signature unless he wished to claim it as his own. Effectively, it has Nicholson's stamp front and back. Although many of the great artists of antiquity used a studio full of apprentices to paint the boring details and do the donkey work on big paintings, the work is still attributed to the principal artist. This painting looks to me to have been so well executed, it really is gorgeous, even better than the Ottawa museum one, that it seems inconceivable that he didn't paint it. |
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Agreed. And the so called expert didn't have the strength of her convictions to turn up !!
It's obviously the genuine article, all the ' technical ' contributors were convinced. The evidence was irrefutable . |
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bloody silly way to sign your painting , what’s all that about
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I wonder is it possible that it was forged by the artist himself
Perhaps came across a trial painting left by one of his students in the studio , maybe partly finished , or even almost complete , and Nicholson decided well I can’t be bothered to do another I’ll touch this up a little or even rework it quite a bit here and there and that will do No point wasting thevcanvas and most of the hard work has been done |
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Maybe he just said oh to pot with it and didn’t do much more than stick his signature on it : )
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‘Artist forged his own work’ that would make a nice headline
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It is the 'value' attributed to the artist that determines the value of a painting. This to my mind is illogical ;surely it is the end result regardless of the name of the artist that should be the driver of the value.
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An artist becomes great ( and valuable ) because he or she is unique and has their own individual way of doing things
A way no one else has though off before Of course once someone else has thought of it it becomes fairly easy for a competent artist to copy |
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There are tens of thousands of very good artists but the painting they are painting is always the same painting
They are not unique and do not find a way to see the world in a new way they don’t have any new ideas That’s the difference a great painter does , that is difficult to do , there are very few who can do that |
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“ She’s got everything she needs
She’s an artist she don’t look back She can take the dark out of the nighttime And paint the daytime black “ |
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lay lady lay ??
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She belongs to me!!
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There are two things about a painting which may have value, the image and the object.
The value of the image is related to the cost of making a good copy which is not high plus the cost which the copyright holder would charge anyone who wanted to make and sell the image, again not usually very much. The value of the object is like any other object especially an antique, a market value depending on what buyers are prepared to pay for it, rarity value and fashion. An individual painting is unique and the work of an artist is limited. Dead artists aren't making any more so their catalogue is finite and usually known. At the high end, investors are buying a recognised "store of value" and an "investment value" We attribute a store of value to a banknote which cost a fraction of its face value to make and is based on trust that others will ascribe the same value to it and exchange it for goods. People invest in stocks and shares in the hope they will be able to sell them for more in the future, the same with highly rated paintings. A "bigger fool" market if you like. |
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Thank you blackbarn !
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High prices are based largely on people having more money than they can spend and wanting to show off their wealth by buying what is perceived to be the best. The best will always have a guaranteed market and as the wealth of the wealthy goes up so should the value of the best. At least the value of artwork is based largely on perceived talent, rather than number plates for example.
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Wow!
Have just finished watched this. Like lfc1971 said, the so called expert wasn't prepared to admit she had made a mistake. Fake or Fortune is television heaven, perfect Sunday afternoon viewing. I will keep tonight's episode for next Sunday  |
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Caught the episode discussing the rembrandt portrait. Very disapponting the "expert" didn't even want to see it.
Who decides that man has the final say on the matter anyway? Is there a world painting police? |
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Caught the episode discussing the rembrandt portrait. Very disapponting the "expert" didn't even want to see it.
Who decides that man has the final say on the matter anyway? Is there a world painting police? I think that was the spin-off programme Britain's Lost Masterpieces, where Bendor Grosvenor (who used to be Philip Mould's assistant) investigates sleepers in public collections (small museums and the like) while Emma Dabiri makes a rather dull social history documentary to pad the programme out to an hour. A world painting police? Interpol? If you want to sell (or buy) a painting, you go to an auction house. If they say it is a Rembrandt, it is £20 million, and if they say it is a copy then it will only make £500 if they agree to sell it at all, which is doubtful. And the auction houses and galleries rely on these academic experts who have spent their lives studying the artist. I rather get the impression that now that lots of people are looking out for sleepers and wanting them reassessed, these experts are getting overworked, especially as the BBC4 budget to pay him was probably small to non-existent. |
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very nice programme again, Toulouse Latrec sketches
daughter in law of owner seemed to have a N . Irish accent ) Lovely programme |
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Wont give the outcome in case md and others have not watched the programme just yet
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This has surpassed the Antiques Roadshow in my view. Compelling viewing!
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Any programme featuring Fiona speaking French has my vote.
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@cooperman - yes, but both presenters are perfect for the job imo. I do like programmes to be both entertaining and educational at the same time and the BBC have always had a reputation of doing that, although sadly, these type of programmes are becoming few and far between these days!
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It's good to see skilfully executed art. I wonder if they will be arguing over the authenticity of some newly discovered Emin sketches in 100 years time.
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Or even trying to decide whether an unmade bed is genuine Emin or not!
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Tracey Emin, Professor of Drawing at the Royal Academy 2011 to 2013. Foinavon- some of her sketches are really fine, I'd have bought one at the Summer Exhibition a few years back. Beyond my budget unfortunately.
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i should exhibit my 2 teenage sons bedroom ,its a work of art !
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on the show 2 weeks ago with the woman who loved the painting but it could be worth 200 quid or 650 grand,whats the problem she loves it great forget about the value or she puts it into an auction and it finds its level if enough people think the expert was wrong its hardly going to sell for 200 quid ,if it does theres your answer
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My sister's on it this week (unless she ends up on the cutting room floor), I thought it was last week she was due on, so watched the program for the first time last week and loved it!
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Yes, I know she can draw if she wants to, Blackbarn, but she discovered that obscenity sells better. I mentioned her because she's a byword for the more outlandish YBA productions. I could have mentioned the transvestite potter or the shark pickler instead.
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The painting one about "Zoffany" was very interesting, not so much because of the painting which I thought was pretty mediocre but because of what an interesting life the mad b-gger led :)
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Zoffany was on Britain's Lost Masterpieces, in case anyone wants to grab it from iplayer.
Did you spot Bendor's to me, to you which though recorded aeons ago now seems like a perfectly timed tribute? |
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Henry Moore tonight
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