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breaking news-pilot locked out of cockpit
breaking news-pilot locked out of cockpit
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i think there is a risk of too much being made of the so far very limited info we have and maybe time for a breath and a recap of the facts we have .
not many questioning any of the info ,normally an air accident investigation takes over a year ,this one everyone knows and has made their mind up very quickly ,maybe too quickly lot of stuff still to be established and some problems with the deductions that have been made ,the FDR is still to be found ,could be very revealing imo . also if people on the plane were not that aware an emergency was playing out there would be every chance they would have done what most people seem to do when they see summit odd or unusual these days ,get there phone out and record it , many would have their phones in their hands as events unfolded ,must be a chance that info will be retrievable from the phones once recovered . they are saying the co-p was not being treated for depression at the time but it could be a play on words as this could prove very costly for this airline if transpires that they allowed a co-p (if its proved he was in the cockpit ,conscious and in control of the plane ) who had mental issues to fly . |
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lufthansa already trying to buy off possibility of charges by look of it
french prosecutors might not be so happy to look other way |
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French prosecuters have disgraced themselves since the start. Leaking CVR, the Marseille prosecutor acting as judge and jury 1 day after the accident. Must not be forgotten that France have a massive interest at stake with the plane being an airbus.
Until a full thorough investigation is completed, nothing can be ruled out. Media baying like wolves outside copilots parents house. genuinely feel sorry for them, they are victims as much as anyone |
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Yes, I'm afraid that this has absolutely ruined the lives of his family...and you have to add that on top of the fact that they have lost their young son.
 Its just a damned sad business from start to finish. |
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Totally agree with that last post naydam.
Basically in a twelve month period we have.... MH 370 still missing without a trace. MH 17 shot down in unbelievable circumstances. Now this. Impossible to imagine how all the families and friends are feeling. |
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Airline co's saying for some flights it is too costly having a third pilot - but why does it have to be a pilot ? as long as that person is strong ,and can regain control while opening the door .
don't get it  |
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........also if people on the plane were not that aware an emergency was playing out there would be every chance they would have done what most people seem to do when they see summit odd or unusual these days ,get there phone out and record it , many would have their phones in their hands as events unfolded ,must be a chance that info will be retrievable from the phones once recovered ........
Recovering intact mobile phones ? |
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Kinda catch 22 situation. If the 3rd person is strong but a bad'un then you've got a problem.
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The statement that the passengers only knew in the last seconds what was going off is obviously bollox to sugar coat it for the families. In the A320 they would have seen and heard everything, a horrendous ordeal to have to go through. RIP to all those lost and thoughts to the families, a sad sad situation.
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akabula 28 Mar 15 14:05
Kinda catch 22 situation. If the 3rd person is strong but a bad'un then you've got a problem. By making it three different people in the cockpit instead of two may have its pluses but you are increasing the chances by 50% that someone somewhere at sometime is going to lose the plot again. |
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yes,but at least there would be two present - gotta be better than one present ,nutter or no nutter .
this story basically mirrors the 9/11 plane that went down . Except the madman was driving the bus . just wondering if passengers tried to help break the door down |
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It is not suggested there are are three people in the cockpit. Just that there must not be just one left in cockpit. So if either the pilot or co pilot leave the cockpit, a flight attendant ? steps in to ensure nothing untoward occurs, and that the door will be able to be safely opened from inside.
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Solid metal plate doors designed to withstand any attempt to break them in.
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having 3 people in the cockpit would not increase the chances that someone would do this, I think that when lighthouses were first manned it was only 2 people...until one of the lighthousemen killed his colleague and then it became law for there always to be 3.
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Ryanair have had one of the cabin crew sit in the cockpit whilst one of the pilots goes to the toilet for a while.
I became aware of it on a flight last year when that very thing happened. Not sure I like the idea much because for any would be terrorist it's far easier to become a member of the cabin crew than it is to become a pilot. When all's said and done I think I'd rather take my chances that the pilots are sound of mind rather than opening up more possibilities for budding terrorists. |
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*if the captain did leave the cockpit
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of course the delay can be overridden via the three way switch in cockpit ,what i am getting at is captain could have used incorrect number via keypad ,they change every day
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Sky report now says medical treatment was for vision problems.
That would be the end of his career as a pilot if it is true. |
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yea ,and his medical cert to fly ran out in june .....apparently he had been a trolly dolly for a while as he waited for a position as a pilot and he had a nickname apparently ,anyway still not an excuse to murder 149 people ,he bought a couple of Audis recently and had girlfriend probs ,was prob earning 60k ish imo ...poor soul ,the shame of it .
captain prob asked him to fetch a tea for him on the way out and the red mist fell . apparently(heresay) his last job on the day in question was flying into london . |
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not many questioning any of the info ,normally an air accident investigation takes over a year ,this one everyone knows and has made their mind up very quickly ,maybe too quickly
It normally takes longer for a very good reason. The primary reason i.e mechanical failure is usually determined relatively quickly and then the investigation centres around what kind of mechanical failure it was. All of that involves inspection of tiny pieces of wreckage so is obviously going to be time consuming. In this case the controlled way the plane came down made mechanical failure unlikely from the word go. The details of what happened could pretty much be exclusively obtained from the voice recorder so the retrieval and testing of various pieces wasn't required. Therefore, the next stage of this investigation is to find an explanation of why the co-pilot did it as opposed to the usual next stage of finding the explanation of what failed and/or why it did. |
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and the red mist fell
_________________________ there was a similar incident in 1972 - Heathrow airport .Fatalities . surprised no one has mentioned it ,Captain was apparently in a foul mood 1972: UK's worst air crash kills 118 All 118 people on board a flight from London Heathrow to Brussels have died when the airliner crashed minutes after take-off. The British European Airways plane came down in a field in Staines, missing the town centre by just a few hundred yards. It is the worst disaster in British aviation history. The Trident jet - which had been involved in another accident in 1968 - left Heathrow at 1708 BST and was only three miles (4.8 km) from the airport when witnesses said it "dropped out of the sky". The airline said it did not know what had caused flight BE548 to crash, but BEA chairman Henry Marking told reporters there was "no reason" to suspect sabotage. There was a thud like a clap of thunder Witness Adrian Bailey Witnesses said the three-engined plane broke into two as it fell - the fuselage ploughed into trees bordering a reservoir and the tail section landed 50 yards (45.7 m) away. "I heard the plane circling overhead and there was a spluttering sound as though the engines were cutting out - then there was a thud like a clap of thunder," said 15-year-old Adrian Bailey. Rescuers pulled two people alive from the wreckage of the airliner - a young girl, who died at the scene, and a Dublin businessman who was taken to a local hospital where he died a few hours later. Heathrow airport Catholic chaplain Father Peter Knott reached the site of the crash within 10 minutes and said it was a scene of total devastation. "There was chaos inside the aircraft - it looked as if everybody had been killed instantaneously," he said. |
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the Tenerife disaster was partly caused by the mood of the pilot - wasn't prepared to wait for the go ahead to proceed as he was running late .
More recently the cargo flight that crashed in Essex (2000 time?) was due to pilot error and captains failure to take notice of subordinate |
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The reasons for Heathrow have never been fully known. Knew I'd remembered reading about it a while back. Note the comments of the captain's daughter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/june/18/newsid_3001000/3001756.stm |
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thought the trident was flap settings / stall and the failure of co pilot to challenge capt?
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In this technological age surely it should be possible to design a gizmo that allows air traffic control to unlock the cockpit door in an emergency situation.
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Marcce ,a dont agree with what you are saying ,there is a strict protocol for dealing with air accidents ,they dont jump to conclusions for a reason and keep an open mind for a reason .
you are saying the the primary reason ie mech failure ,mech failure is not that common and often ,take off and landing is pilot error ,been loads of times they knew stuff early but keep it under their hat ,go over it countless times ,corroborate it and then release an initial report after several months ,then a final and full report taking anything up to two years .This time was very diff ,they found the box very quickly ,but no sign of the important part of the FDR .You say they know ,well tell me what exact eveidence they actually have who was in the cockpit ? and who was banging on the door ? how can they say for sure the pilot was conscious ,they say he was breathing but that does not mean conscious ,pilot could have entered wrong code and thats game over ,does not explain why plane was descending but their is a great deal of deductions going on ,without the FDR to prove it they have deduced and made public a hell of a lot . its not how they usually operate ,but not saying its not good just saying its very diff ,of course a leak has forced their hand but they have continued dripping it out but its not quite a open and shut case by a long shot . who is to say the pilot opened and shut the door and did not leave the cockpit ? could have been a passenger banging on the door ....lot still to be explained |
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who is to say the co-p did not have a brain tumour ect ect ect ect ect ...he could have passed out ,there was no convo from him ,
if they come out and say the captain was calling his name well fair enough but they have not have they ? FDR is still needed imo ,its always been talked of as unbreakable .....but this one is broken ,,,,and missing |
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there was something about the pilot called out to the co pilot using his name when asking to be let in, the squitter data showed the change on auto pilot from 38k to 100ft, a manual change in effect when the pilot was out of the cockpit
there's probably more to come but i don't think they would release their views unless they were sure of the man in control |
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re the name my take was he used his own name to say it's me let me in but i may have misread it
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The evidence they have breadnbutter is that the captain was heard to ask the co pilot to take the controls. Immediately after that request they heard a seat go back and the cockpit door open. It's never going to be possible to determine 100% that the captain did indeed get up and leave the cockpit but I think it's possible to be 99.9% sure that he did. Now I would suggest it would be an extraordinary coincidence if the co pilot had suddenly fallen unconscious in the time it took the captain to have a slash. I would also suggest that it would be remarkable for the co-pilot, before he fell unconscious, to disable the entry code for the cockpit door.
The FDR ceases to be that important when almost every single indicator tells them this wasn't due to any mechanical failure. It's not going to give them any information as to whether the captain did actually leave the cockpit. As in any incident like this there's a clamour to know what happened as soon as possible. In most aeroplane crashes it's not possible to be this specific this soon. The very rare circumstances that have caused the tragedy have also contributed to the speed of being able to release information as to the almost certain cause. |
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yea ,not sure what other data is out there and not so sure about how they know what the dial was set too ,but playing devils advocate who is say he has not blacked out ,woken up with blurred vision wondering what the fck is going on and set the controls for landing ,only got the alt dial and nowt else and was in some sort of frozen incapaciated state ,panic stricken ect ....you see they need to put out a bit more if they know it and not sure how they even know what the alt dial was set to .
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This from flightradar24
We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more dat We have analysed the raw data from the transponder of #4U9525 and found some more data apart from the regular position/altitude data. These are the decoded ModeS (Downlink Format 20) frames which contain replies to interrogating radar requests (Upling Format 20). 09:30:48Z.651 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:48Z.936 T,3c6618,43.115341,5.671181,38000,GWI18G 09:30:49Z.496 T,3c6618,43.116028,5.671692,38000,GWI18G 09:30:50Z.076 T,3c6618,43.117381,5.673065,38000,GWI18G 09:30:50Z.111 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:50Z.553 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:50Z.619 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:50Z.626 T,3c6618,43.118408,5.673736,38000,GWI18G 09:30:51Z.127 T,3c6618,43.119095,5.674247,38000,GWI18G 09:30:51Z.636 T,3c6618,43.120453,5.675092,38000,GWI18G 09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G 09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G 09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G 09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G 09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G 09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G 09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:55Z.453 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:55Z.636 T,3c6618,43.128367,5.681109,38025,GWI18G 09:30:56Z.186 T,3c6618,43.129211,5.681656,38025,GWI18G 09:30:56Z.707 T,3c6618,43.129898,5.682167,38000,GWI18G 09:30:57Z.267 T,3c6618,43.131626,5.683201,38000,GWI18G 09:30:57Z.312 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:57Z.836 T,3c6618,43.132507,5.684020,38000,GWI18G 09:30:58Z.050 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:30:58Z.296 T,3c6618,43.133011,5.684403,38000,GWI18G 09:30:58Z.767 T,3c6618,43.134559,5.685425,38000,GWI18G 09:30:59Z.216 T,3c6618,43.135397,5.685948,38000,GWI18G 09:30:59Z.746 T,3c6618,43.136261,5.686575,38000,GWI18G 09:30:59Z.988 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:00Z.146 T,3c6618,43.137451,5.687149,38000,GWI18G 09:31:00Z.165 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:00Z.676 T,3c6618,43.137817,5.687660,38000,GWI18G 09:31:01Z.676 T,3c6618,43.139866,5.689022,38000,GWI18G 09:31:02Z.027 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:02Z.238 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:02Z.496 T,3c6618,43.141402,5.690199,38000,GWI18G 09:31:03Z.030 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:03Z.456 T,3c6618,43.143494,5.691429,38000,GWI18G 09:31:04Z.376 T,3c6618,43.145731,5.692945,37975,GWI18G 09:31:04Z.943 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:05Z.346 T,3c6618,43.147430,5.693984,37975,GWI18G 09:31:05Z.558 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:05Z.993 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:06Z.466 T,3c6618,43.149828,5.695365,37975,GWI18G 09:31:07Z.164 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:07Z.346 T,3c6618,43.151367,5.696539,37950,GWI18G 09:31:08Z.256 T,3c6618,43.153427,5.697752,37950,GWI18G 09:31:08Z.776 T,3c6618,43.154111,5.698308,37925,GWI18G 09:31:09Z.276 T,3c6618,43.154995,5.698962,37925,GWI18G 09:31:09Z.712 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:09Z.960 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:10Z.326 T,3c6618,43.157364,5.700307,37925,GWI18G 09:31:11Z.312 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:11Z.467 T,3c6618,43.159607,5.701713,37900,GWI18G 09:31:11Z.876 T,3c6618,43.160660,5.702415,37900,GWI18G 09:31:12Z.102 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:12Z.386 T,3c6618,43.161512,5.702885,37875,GWI18G 09:31:12Z.846 T,3c6618,43.162211,5.703408,37875,GWI18G 09:31:13Z.316 T,3c6618,43.163049,5.704128,37875,GWI18G 09:31:13Z.896 T,3c6618,43.164597,5.704970,37875,GWI18G 09:31:14Z.401 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:14Z.493 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:15Z.536 T,3c6618,43.168030,5.707201,37825,GWI18G 09:31:16Z.416 T,3c6618,43.169380,5.707921,37825,GWI18G 09:31:17Z.028 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:17Z.266 T,3c6618,43.171288,5.709294,37800,GWI18G 09:31:18Z.196 T,3c6618,43.173019,5.710144,37775,GWI18G 09:31:19Z.166 T,3c6618,43.175385,5.711648,37750,GWI18G 09:31:19Z.262 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa 09:31:20Z.176 T,3c6618,43.177277,5.712891,37725,GWI18G 09:31:21Z.216 T,3c6618,43.179202,5.714068,37700,GWI18G Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 we can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the "open descent" autopilot setting. The reason why the selected altitude is 96ft is that least significant bit for altitude setting equals 16 ft, and we suspect that you can’t set autopilot to 0000 altitude, so the minimum would be 100ft down rounded to 96ft in binary representation in BDS40h register. Any comments or thoughts about this? Playback: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/fl...u9525/#5d42675 This data has also been handled over to BEA 2 days ago. |
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9.30.52 to 9.30.58
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then the captain enters wrong code or just plain panics and starts axing the door ,thats why i was wondering if the FDR will record inputs from cockpit door switch and keypad
if access was denied from cockpit then fair enough |
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when did captain leave the cockpit and when did he try and gain access ,again did he just knock or did he use keypad ?
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coincidence you say Marcce ,but the guy is seeing a doctor not a optician for vision probs ,,,so a bit odd ,could have had a panic attack or the stress of being in control brought on a seizure ,as i said he could have had a brain tumour ....as a said devils advocate ,noone else is asking questions ,some coont gotta do it
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,could have had a panic attack or the stress of being in control brought on a seizure ,as i said he could have had a brain tumour
No blackout, altitude changed to 96ft at 9:30:55 |
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In this technological age surely it should be possible to design a gizmo that allows air traffic control to unlock the cockpit door in an emergency situation.
if so, they should be able to override settings and return aircraft to correct altitude too, and perhaps land it if necessary |
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