Chit Chat
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
These 209 comments are related to the topic:
WOLF HALL - BBC 2 - 9PM
WOLF HALL - BBC 2 - 9PM
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 209
|
By:
Cromwell's theme on Classic fm now
|
|
By:
ebul I think he became chancellor because he thought he had no choice. Henry VIII wasnt someone to say no too.
He would have surely known that conflict would arise over the act of supremacy. Rather a tad foolishly he also thought if he kept his views on this to himself then he would be safe, as he couldn't be convicted for something he hadn't said. Maybe he thought if he continued to excel in his role and kept quiet over certain issues then his "friend" the king would accept this. Don't think he thought Cromwell would bring in his stooge Richie rich (someone whom more did not like or trust so would never reveal any of his thoughts on the matter too) to lie under oath to get the conviction. |
|
By:
You may be right maleuki01
But you see Henry's idea of friendship was rather different than Mores, he though as a friend More would do anything Henry wanted else he was no friend...Henry II and Becket all over again. More recognised Ann Boleyn as Queen, but you see this had to be legitimate for Ann's offspring to succeed to the throne, The only way this was possible, was if Henry was head of the Church. If all the clergy had to acknowledge Henry as head of the church, then so did More, otherwise why should they? The real battle going on here is the future of England's religion, were we going to be Catholic or Protestant, of immense importance then Many individuals were consumed in this battle, including More. More could not be left, he was too important, it stood out like a sore thumb, he had to be brought down by whatever it took. I agree he was fitted up. |
|
By:
The Holbein doc was superb - another entertaining art effort from the ever entertaining Waldemar Januszczak.
|
|
By:
Sadly I forget to record it, hopefully it will be on again.
|
|
By:
Flower
|
|
By:
You can watch here ebul for the next 29 days:
. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0513ghb/the-culture-show-holbein-eye-of-the-tudors-a-culture-show-special |
|
By:
ta flower
|
|
By:
I will give a bit on this maleuk01
Perhaps Foxe was hard on More But he still burnt six more men than Wolsey ever did....must be considered more hard line May well have been pressured by Henry into taking position as Lord Chancellor Was prepared to accept Ann Boleyn as Queen, probably thought Henrys first marriage should have been annulled and an act of Parliament made Ann Boleyn Queen which he accepted. But I think he still hoped to persuade Henry not to become head of the Church....this led to conflict with Henry Perhaps we should wait for episode two tomorrow, to see what happens. |
|
By:
Inevitable conflict I should say...More was a man who could not back down on his principles
He was brave |
|
By:
ebul we don't have to wait until episode 2 lol, we all know the storyline :)
There where 6 burnings of which 3 can be directly linked to more.  However he didn't actually go to any of them (contradicting the story he was a masochist)More genuinely believed he was saving their souls and others who may be tempted to go down that path. Its abhorrent to us today, but burnings took place on both sides and its difficult for us in the 21st century to understand these times. Wolsey was very pragmatic and chased the money and power and was quite happy to alter his views/opinions on anything. He was also excellent at diplomacy, primarily because he thought wars are too expensive. Cromwell was prob even worse, he simply was a fixer for Henry over anything and would sell his own soul if he could. His execution has always seemed a bit odd to me considering at this stage Henry could always annul the marriage and would Cromwell really have known Henry would really dislike Anne of Cleeves apperance. I think he had upset too many people at court. And I can imagine them all sticking the knife in given the chance, and this was their opportunity to get rid of him. Winding up Henry as to what he was going to do about it. Without any allies he was done for. More had much more integrity about him and was respected a lot more not just in the court of Henry but throughout Europe. Cromwell was of similar ilk, he was |
|
By:
Thomas Cromwell's real crime was his low birth
You have no idea how important this was at that time Court was for aristocrats only.....this the real hate towards him These were tremendously important times, Henrys obsession for a son or what was it 'legover' had opened the door for Protestantism in this country There is a real power struggle at this time over religion, this is the backdrop to everything. Would we be Protestant if it was not for Henry VIII, an interesting question. |
|
By:
You see if Henry VIII had stuck to one wife, Catherine of Aragon, and accepted her daughter as his successor
and had his mistresses for his pleasure, accepted at that time, History could well be different Mary would have succeeded Henry VIII, no Elizabeth she would not have been born it would then have been Mary Queen Of Scots I assume, an interesting what if history |
|
By:
ebul think you are getting confused slightly.
His son Edward succeeded Henry but died young. His daughter Mary (daughter of Catherine of Aragon) did then become Queen Mary 1 Also known as Bloody Mary. |
|
By:
not including lady jane grey of course as 9 days doesn't really count.
|
|
By:
Yes I know
Edward drove Protestantism...tragically died young. I think you fail to see this is all about power, not good or bad The struggle for Religious power Catholic or Protestant, the biggest power struggle of all at the time The lesser struggles for power in King Henrys court, as people struggle to gain Henrys favour. This is why it is so interesting Good or bad or subjective values we make ourselves, we pick sides You have picked More, I have picked Cromwell, his low birth does it for me but I by no means give him a clean sheet You will enjoy this better if you see it from see point of view |
|
By:
this point of view
|
|
By:
more wasn't high birth himself (his father was a lawyer) and therefore he should have been hung drawn and quartered due to social standing, but the king said just a beheading would suffice.
I think some historians and authors such as this wolf story are rallying to Cromwell to be different. The "More" side has been done for nearly 500 years! If going to sell books or get on telly they have to offer a different view. Doesn't make it right though. And im surprised people are believing it or going along with it to be honest. |
|
By:
I agree with you. Having a father who is a lawyer is enough to justify being hung drawn and quartered in my book.
|
|
By:
 |
|
By:
|
|
By:
Well I suppose you believe what you say Maleuk01
I have to disagree, there was more to Cromwell than you would think, he was the son of a blacksmith not much more I can say I have taken my side, you have taken yours History is interpretive |
|
By:
Im not an expert on history but I do know Cromwell was more than a match for Charles the first.
|
|
By:
|
|
By:
loved it,fab acting,very much looking forward to next one
|
|
By:
I have only just read this thread. Everything was fine until EbulGery's post about midnight on the 24th.
He stated that death was very common 'in those days'. This is absolutely NOT true and should be considered very misleading!  |
|
By:
|
|
By:
I should have said death from disease was very common in those days, there was little proper medical treatment.
Cromwell's wife and children all died in the first episode, this was not uncommon. If all ones children made to adulthood you were lucky then. We associate death with old age now, in those days people were lucky to make it to old age. Death was a constant companion, why they were so religious, they could be moving on at any time. |
|
By:
Also it must be remembered no one knows for certain what happened in those days, we were not there ourselves.
Historians have had to research this from records and other evidence. They do often come to different conclusions, they disagree, we are allowed to on here History is always interpretive |
|
By:
I admire Cromwell for his ability, that is all, this man could have been ruled himself
For a while to all intents and purposes he did, Henry left it all to him Problem was Cromwell was always Protestant although he wisely kept it quiet, along with Cranmer he drove Protestantism behind Henrys back Cromwell's crime with me....destruction of the Monasteries, and what this did to the people. It took away a safety net , an early social services if you like, for the poor, why they rebelled. This was covered in the 'Tudors'. Also an appalling act of destruction in itself, but I wont go on I do not want to give away the ending. |
|
By:
It's on.
|
|
By:
Interesting topic.
Boring, slow and over-acted series which seems to have been filmed mostly in the dark. Waste of a good cast, imo. 1 and a half episodes quite enough for me. |
|
By:
Reading a book is 10 times slower.
|
|
By:
If ye think this is dark, best not go and see it in the theatre..
|
|
By:
It's excellent.
Well done bbc for once. |
|
By:
Brilliant..if not for all
This is the program the BEEB used to do so well This is subtle all about the intricacies of power, its twists and turns not for the computer games generation I hope the BEEB sell this one, well done BEEB |
|
By:
I have got used to the lighting..it works
|
|
By:
I normally can't stand dark stuff, but I'm not even noticing it myself. I like the pacing of it and I like the subtle and sparing use of music. It's building nicely, heads will roll soon.
|
|
By:
literally!
|
|
By:
Truly excellent. So many subtle touches, like Cromwell's son's shame and irritation because of the black greyhounds...the way the son dropped his head...then later, we see him playing with two white greyhounds in the garden. His sons are spoiled. Heartbreaking scenes with the Cardinal. Hellish scenes at the end, with the celebrations of the old man's death.
This is the best UK series since I, Claudius. |