Chit Chat
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
21 Jan 15
13:55
Joined:
Date Joined:
05 Apr 06
Will be Great !
Three Card Trick Part 1 of 6 - New series.
Henry VIII is desperate to end his marriage to Katherine of Aragon, but Cardinal Wolsey's efforts to persuade the pope to grant an annulment are fruitless - much to the dismay of Thomas Cromwell, a lawyer dependent on Wolsey's patronage. The king's new mistress is rumoured to be Anne Boleyn, who has sworn vengeance on Wolsey after he refused to let her marry Harry Percy, so Cromwell visits her in the hope of swaying her to the cardinal's side. Historical drama adapted by Peter Straughan from Hilary Mantel's Booker Prize-winning novels Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies, and starring Mark Rylance, Damian Lewis, Claire Foy and Jonathan Pryce
Adapted By: Peter Straughan
Director: Peter Kosminsky
Producer: Mark Pybus
Writer: Hilary Mantel
Cast
Thomas Cromwell Mark Rylance (IMDB)
Henry VIII Damian Lewis (IMDB)
Anne Boleyn Claire Foy (IMDB)
Cardinal Wolsey Jonathan Pryce (IMDB)
Duke of Norfolk Bernard Hill (IMDB)
Thomas More Anton Lesser (IMDB)
Stephen Gardiner Mark Gatiss (IMDB)
Eustache Chapuys Mathieu Amalric (IMDB)
Katherine of Aragon Joanne Whalley (IMDB)
Rafe Sadler Thomas Brodie-Sangster (IMDB)
Harry Percy Harry Lloyd (IMDB)
Jane Rochford Jessica Raine (IMDB)
Johane Williamson Saskia Reeves (IMDB)
Mary Boleyn Charity Wakefield (IMDB)
Liz Cromwell Natasha Little (IMDB)
Richard Cromwell Joss Porter (IMDB)
Jane Seymour Kate Phillips (IMDB)
George Cavendish Robert Wilfort (IMDB)
Duke of Suffolk Richard Dillane (IMDB)
Henry Norris Luke Roberts (IMDB)
Mark Smeaton Max Fowler (IMDB)
Sir Thomas Boleyn David Robb (IMDB)
Anne Cromwell Emilia Jones (IMDB)
Grace Cromwell Athena Droutis (IMDB)
Mercy Pryor Mary Jo Randle (IMDB)
Three Card Trick Part 1 of 6 - New series.
Henry VIII is desperate to end his marriage to Katherine of Aragon, but Cardinal Wolsey's efforts to persuade the pope to grant an annulment are fruitless - much to the dismay of Thomas Cromwell, a lawyer dependent on Wolsey's patronage. The king's new mistress is rumoured to be Anne Boleyn, who has sworn vengeance on Wolsey after he refused to let her marry Harry Percy, so Cromwell visits her in the hope of swaying her to the cardinal's side. Historical drama adapted by Peter Straughan from Hilary Mantel's Booker Prize-winning novels Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies, and starring Mark Rylance, Damian Lewis, Claire Foy and Jonathan Pryce
Adapted By: Peter Straughan
Director: Peter Kosminsky
Producer: Mark Pybus
Writer: Hilary Mantel
Cast
Thomas Cromwell Mark Rylance (IMDB)
Henry VIII Damian Lewis (IMDB)
Anne Boleyn Claire Foy (IMDB)
Cardinal Wolsey Jonathan Pryce (IMDB)
Duke of Norfolk Bernard Hill (IMDB)
Thomas More Anton Lesser (IMDB)
Stephen Gardiner Mark Gatiss (IMDB)
Eustache Chapuys Mathieu Amalric (IMDB)
Katherine of Aragon Joanne Whalley (IMDB)
Rafe Sadler Thomas Brodie-Sangster (IMDB)
Harry Percy Harry Lloyd (IMDB)
Jane Rochford Jessica Raine (IMDB)
Johane Williamson Saskia Reeves (IMDB)
Mary Boleyn Charity Wakefield (IMDB)
Liz Cromwell Natasha Little (IMDB)
Richard Cromwell Joss Porter (IMDB)
Jane Seymour Kate Phillips (IMDB)
George Cavendish Robert Wilfort (IMDB)
Duke of Suffolk Richard Dillane (IMDB)
Henry Norris Luke Roberts (IMDB)
Mark Smeaton Max Fowler (IMDB)
Sir Thomas Boleyn David Robb (IMDB)
Anne Cromwell Emilia Jones (IMDB)
Grace Cromwell Athena Droutis (IMDB)
Mercy Pryor Mary Jo Randle (IMDB)
Show More
Interesting topic.
Boring, slow and over-acted series which seems to have been filmed mostly in the dark.
Waste of a good cast, imo.
1 and a half episodes quite enough for me.
Boring, slow and over-acted series which seems to have been filmed mostly in the dark.
Waste of a good cast, imo.
1 and a half episodes quite enough for me.
If ye think this is dark, best not go and see it in the theatre..
Brilliant..if not for all
This is the program the BEEB used to do so well
This is subtle all about the intricacies of power, its twists and turns
not for the computer games generation
I hope the BEEB sell this one, well done BEEB
This is the program the BEEB used to do so well
This is subtle all about the intricacies of power, its twists and turns
not for the computer games generation
I hope the BEEB sell this one, well done BEEB
I normally can't stand dark stuff, but I'm not even noticing it myself. I like the pacing of it and I like the subtle and sparing use of music. It's building nicely, heads will roll soon.
Truly excellent. So many subtle touches, like Cromwell's son's shame and irritation because of the black greyhounds...the way the son dropped his head...then later, we see him playing with two white greyhounds in the garden. His sons are spoiled. Heartbreaking scenes with the Cardinal. Hellish scenes at the end, with the celebrations of the old man's death.
This is the best UK series since I, Claudius.
This is the best UK series since I, Claudius.
The Most Dangerous Man In Tudor England - Tynedale.....BBC4 at 8pm tonight.
Velasquez - "his sons are spoiled". He only had one son
Velasquez - "his sons are spoiled". He only had one son
Yass...but...Richard Cromwell (nephew) asked to become a son by adoption when his father died (Ep.1)...as Guinness says, "2 now..." 
Velasquez • February 4, 2015 7:02 PM GMT
The Most Dangerous Man In Tudor England - Tynedale.....BBC4 at 8pm tonight.
Yes that was very good Velasquez, he translated the Bible into English and sadly died for it
Henry VIII...despite making himself head of the English church, and even authorising English Bibles be placed in churches
still thought of himself as Catholic??????????????????????????
He was in fact Protestant whether he liked it or not
Most of the classic King James bible is copied from Tyndale's bible, yet he gets not credit in it, sad
The Most Dangerous Man In Tudor England - Tynedale.....BBC4 at 8pm tonight.
Yes that was very good Velasquez, he translated the Bible into English and sadly died for it
Henry VIII...despite making himself head of the English church, and even authorising English Bibles be placed in churches
still thought of himself as Catholic??????????????????????????
He was in fact Protestant whether he liked it or not
Most of the classic King James bible is copied from Tyndale's bible, yet he gets not credit in it, sad
As good as ever tonight
Thomas More beheaded, Henry VIII did make some concession for their friendship,
his sentence was a good deal more painful, Henry said the beheading will do
Ann Boleyn seems vindictive, but she has staked a lot on producing a male heir, too much
Thomas More beheaded, Henry VIII did make some concession for their friendship,
his sentence was a good deal more painful, Henry said the beheading will do
Ann Boleyn seems vindictive, but she has staked a lot on producing a male heir, too much
Being married to Henry VIII must have been the most dangerous job a woman could have in Tudor England
I am amazed he had any takers
Oscar Pistorius had nothing on Henry
I am amazed he had any takers
Oscar Pistorius had nothing on Henry
He never got his own hands dirty though.
Or his knees..
Or his knees..
Me too. Well i watched the 1st one.
No spoilers plz..
No spoilers plz..
Velasquez - "Yass...but...Richard Cromwell (nephew) asked to become a son by adoption when his father died (Ep.1)...as Guinness says, "2 now..." Grin
But he didn't did he?, in fact as it turned out he was rather glad he didn't. Sorry, I was relying on what little history I had read, rather than using what is portrayed in this excellent drama
But he didn't did he?, in fact as it turned out he was rather glad he didn't. Sorry, I was relying on what little history I had read, rather than using what is portrayed in this excellent drama
Excellent again tonight...Mark Rylance superb
Henry III showing his unpredictability, dangerous to get too near him
but also his dependence on Cromwell, he wants rid of Ann, he has his eye on Jane Seymour
Ann Boleyn was foolish to make an enemy of Cromwell, made it easy for him to do his job
One more episode
I hope the BBC dramatize Hilary Mantel's second novel, 'Bring Up The Bodies'
and she has a new novel due out this year 'Mirror and the Light'
completing her trilogy on Thomas Cromwell
Henry III showing his unpredictability, dangerous to get too near him
but also his dependence on Cromwell, he wants rid of Ann, he has his eye on Jane Seymour
Ann Boleyn was foolish to make an enemy of Cromwell, made it easy for him to do his job
One more episode
I hope the BBC dramatize Hilary Mantel's second novel, 'Bring Up The Bodies'
and she has a new novel due out this year 'Mirror and the Light'
completing her trilogy on Thomas Cromwell
ebul, anne and Cromwell had a huge fallout over the distribution of the monasteries wealth. The version for their fall out in wolf hall I find quite pathetic really. The version as in "wolf Hall" doesn't really show this as it doesn't look good for Cromwell.
As the monasteries effectively doubled up as social services, anne wanted this money or a large part of it to be used to cover the social services aspect that was taken away through the destruction of the monasteries. Cromwell wanted to take all the money for the crown (and no doubt a little for himself). And basically sod the poor.
How the next episode is going to get round the facts of Cromwell fabricating most if not all the evidence against her should be interesting. As well as the fact of the torture methods he used on Smeaton. Forcing a false confession admitting sex with anne on a day he couldn't have even done it as she was away at the time in Richmond.
As the monasteries effectively doubled up as social services, anne wanted this money or a large part of it to be used to cover the social services aspect that was taken away through the destruction of the monasteries. Cromwell wanted to take all the money for the crown (and no doubt a little for himself). And basically sod the poor.
How the next episode is going to get round the facts of Cromwell fabricating most if not all the evidence against her should be interesting. As well as the fact of the torture methods he used on Smeaton. Forcing a false confession admitting sex with anne on a day he couldn't have even done it as she was away at the time in Richmond.
I hope the BBC dramatize Hilary Mantel's second novel, 'Bring Up The Bodies'
They already are and you've been watching it, it's just going under the title of Wolf Hall over all, but we're well into 'Bodies' now. They've done well as it isn't exactly fast and furious but have managed to get the tell the story in a satisfying way imo.
They already are and you've been watching it, it's just going under the title of Wolf Hall over all, but we're well into 'Bodies' now. They've done well as it isn't exactly fast and furious but have managed to get the tell the story in a satisfying way imo.
Oh I see Flower
maleuki
History is interpretive
I think it is reasonable to believe that Henry wanted rid of Ann Boleyn, and Cromwell was given the job. It would
hardly have been his own idea.
Now I am not happy with the dissolution of the Monasteries either. But Cromwell genuinely believed they exploited the poor,
the other view is they helped the poor. I accept the latter may have been true.
I do not see Ann Boleyn as a martyr here, she played for high stakes, normally she should have accepted being the Queen's
mistress as her sister did. She gambled and lost. If Henry lost interest in Katherine of Aragon he could lose
interest in her...she placed a lot on being able to produce a son.
I think it is also reasonable to believe Henry would have wanted the money from the monasteries for himself, Cromwell tempted
him with it, but in the end it was the King's decision.
Ann idea of reform and helping the poor seems better to me. But what evidence is there for this? One must also remember Ann Boleyn
was not universally popular as Queen, she may have seen this as a way to curry popularity.
To understand History you need to see this as a game of power, not right or wrong these are subjective.
maleuki
History is interpretive
I think it is reasonable to believe that Henry wanted rid of Ann Boleyn, and Cromwell was given the job. It would
hardly have been his own idea.
Now I am not happy with the dissolution of the Monasteries either. But Cromwell genuinely believed they exploited the poor,
the other view is they helped the poor. I accept the latter may have been true.
I do not see Ann Boleyn as a martyr here, she played for high stakes, normally she should have accepted being the Queen's
mistress as her sister did. She gambled and lost. If Henry lost interest in Katherine of Aragon he could lose
interest in her...she placed a lot on being able to produce a son.
I think it is also reasonable to believe Henry would have wanted the money from the monasteries for himself, Cromwell tempted
him with it, but in the end it was the King's decision.
Ann idea of reform and helping the poor seems better to me. But what evidence is there for this? One must also remember Ann Boleyn
was not universally popular as Queen, she may have seen this as a way to curry popularity.
To understand History you need to see this as a game of power, not right or wrong these are subjective.
Why do you think the King favoured Thomas Cromwell, because he needed someone who get things done
and not be too squeamish about it, without troubling the King overmuch with the details, otherwise why use him at all?
He describes Cromwell to his face as his serpent in the last episode.
and not be too squeamish about it, without troubling the King overmuch with the details, otherwise why use him at all?
He describes Cromwell to his face as his serpent in the last episode.
Hilary Mantel has shown Ann Boleyn in a poor light I agree, it is her interpretation.
Others have been kinder to Ann Boleyn. We were not there, who knows?
Others have been kinder to Ann Boleyn. We were not there, who knows?
to be fair he was married to katherine for 25 years. it's not like he didn't give her every chance to produce a male heir
seems self evident he wanted rid of anne by the end rather than it being some sort of plot hatched by cromwell. he just had the job of fitting her up. the fact he married jane seymour less than 2 weeks later backs that up
seems self evident he wanted rid of anne by the end rather than it being some sort of plot hatched by cromwell. he just had the job of fitting her up. the fact he married jane seymour less than 2 weeks later backs that up
Seems likely Mafeking
I would not have thought Cromwell would have been hatching plots of his own??? far too risky
Also of course, as with Thomas More
When Cromwell asked the King what would happen if Thomas More was found innocent at his trial?
The King replied it was in Cromwell's own interest that More was not found innocent
I think Cromwell was in the same situation with Ann Boleyn, if it was not Ann Boleyn's head then it would be Cromwell's.
Henry was a zero tolerance employer, one failure and you are dead.
Actually the case against Ann Boleyn may have been true, since Ann must have been desperate to get pregnant again, by any means.
But since torture was used to get confessions, no can say, historians are unconvinced about any unfaithfulness.
I think her body betrayed her, she was at an age she could not hold a child.
Henry was also a zero tolerance husband.
I would not have thought Cromwell would have been hatching plots of his own??? far too risky
Also of course, as with Thomas More
When Cromwell asked the King what would happen if Thomas More was found innocent at his trial?
The King replied it was in Cromwell's own interest that More was not found innocent
I think Cromwell was in the same situation with Ann Boleyn, if it was not Ann Boleyn's head then it would be Cromwell's.
Henry was a zero tolerance employer, one failure and you are dead.
Actually the case against Ann Boleyn may have been true, since Ann must have been desperate to get pregnant again, by any means.
But since torture was used to get confessions, no can say, historians are unconvinced about any unfaithfulness.
I think her body betrayed her, she was at an age she could not hold a child.
Henry was also a zero tolerance husband.
you do have the understand the times they were living in. henry's own father stole the crown on the battlefield so he more than most would appreciate that a king in medieval and tudor times might have to fight for the crown and there was just no concept of a woman being able to do that
of course the irony of ironies is that anne boleyn did produce perhaps the greatest monarch in english history
of course the irony of ironies is that anne boleyn did produce perhaps the greatest monarch in english history
Yes you are right..but we had had some strong women before that during the Plantagenet era.
and if any one were real men the Plantagenet's were.
Some women were extremely politically aware, and used their knowledge to manipulate men, one sees great influence
being exerted in this era, by some Queens.
Perhaps Henry had been brought up to believe he had to have a son?
We have had worse Rulers than Henry but I don't think he was a particularly good one
He allowed himself to be controlled by his emotions far too much for me, he seemed to have an addiction to the sins of the flesh,
notably sex, food and drink. Kings were not meant to be in love with their wives, because these marriages were often politically
arranged while they were children. If they wanted love and sex, well that is what their mistresses were for. Wives were business.
Physically impressive was Henry, but sadly far from that between the ears I feel. Which I think is more important.
Just my impression of Henry, he seemed like a child at times, albeit a very spiteful child
Elizabeth I was a good ruler. She kept herself aloof from any entanglements. Perhaps she was afraid it would undermine her if she married?
Although Mary I had married. Her husband Philip of Spain was seen as her consort, but that may have been because he was Spanish.
But it worked well for Elizabeth I, she kept men with sound judgement around her, but no physical stuff, she was greatly loved
by the people.
and if any one were real men the Plantagenet's were.
Some women were extremely politically aware, and used their knowledge to manipulate men, one sees great influence
being exerted in this era, by some Queens.
Perhaps Henry had been brought up to believe he had to have a son?
We have had worse Rulers than Henry but I don't think he was a particularly good one
He allowed himself to be controlled by his emotions far too much for me, he seemed to have an addiction to the sins of the flesh,
notably sex, food and drink. Kings were not meant to be in love with their wives, because these marriages were often politically
arranged while they were children. If they wanted love and sex, well that is what their mistresses were for. Wives were business.
Physically impressive was Henry, but sadly far from that between the ears I feel. Which I think is more important.
Just my impression of Henry, he seemed like a child at times, albeit a very spiteful child
Elizabeth I was a good ruler. She kept herself aloof from any entanglements. Perhaps she was afraid it would undermine her if she married?
Although Mary I had married. Her husband Philip of Spain was seen as her consort, but that may have been because he was Spanish.
But it worked well for Elizabeth I, she kept men with sound judgement around her, but no physical stuff, she was greatly loved
by the people.
Elizabeth the 1st was a man. The real Elizabeth died young.
The Queens in the Plantagenet era were not Queens in name. Although Isabella of France may as well have been
at times.
Arguably Queen Matilda was in name in Norman times, although she was always at war with her cousin Stephen.
But was politically aware enough to let Stephen have the throne if her son Henry II succeeded him.
A very good decision.
at times.
Arguably Queen Matilda was in name in Norman times, although she was always at war with her cousin Stephen.
But was politically aware enough to let Stephen have the throne if her son Henry II succeeded him.
A very good decision.
Not my theory ebul. Ive no idea whether its true or not but thats the view of some historians.
i think Elizabeth I could well have been a hermaphrodite. I think there is strong evidence to suggest this.
Of course Henry wanted rid of anne Boleyn. The fall out between Cromwell and anne prob meant if she stayed he was a dead man from Anne if henry changed his mind and still wanted her and from henry if he did not get rid of her.
The problem I have with wolf hall is the sugar coating of a man (Cromwell) who would stop at nothing to achieve the kings aims. Whether that be torture, or getting people to lie on oath in court. We know well over half the acts anne was charged with and found guilty off could not have possibly happened (due to timings). Yet this series promotes him as a "nice" guy. Baffling.
Anne was definitely unliked by the people as they always saw Catherine as the queen who was very popular.
Of course Henry wanted rid of anne Boleyn. The fall out between Cromwell and anne prob meant if she stayed he was a dead man from Anne if henry changed his mind and still wanted her and from henry if he did not get rid of her.
The problem I have with wolf hall is the sugar coating of a man (Cromwell) who would stop at nothing to achieve the kings aims. Whether that be torture, or getting people to lie on oath in court. We know well over half the acts anne was charged with and found guilty off could not have possibly happened (due to timings). Yet this series promotes him as a "nice" guy. Baffling.
Anne was definitely unliked by the people as they always saw Catherine as the queen who was very popular.
You do not have to see him as a nice guy maleuk01
Hilary Mantel has made him sympathetic, others do not see him like that
Without actually knowing him, who knows for sure?
Politics or the game of power, is never a nice game then or now.....
It is too important for that
If something has to be done for the good of the country, or for whoever rules, somebody has to do it.
Cromwell's job was to serve the King, the morality was actually Henrys.
I admire Cromwell because of where he came from a son of a blacksmith, to very close to the top of society.
In fact he was de facto ruler for a time.
That was unheard of then. Cromwell was a very clever man, a man of ability, but also ruthless when needed.
Yes he was very streetwise, somebody had to be.
He was also a strong Protestant believer. Him and Cranmer drove Protestantism, without Henry being aware tbh.
Did not say a lot for Henry as King.
Cromwell destroyed the base of Catholicism the Monasteries. I feel this is his crime if he has one.
Henry never had better servant than Cromwell. One mistake downed Cromwell and it was a mistake. His judgement failed him for once.
Norfolk and others who hated him for his low birth pounced. Low Birth was the most heinous crime of all then.
Having communist/socialist inclinations his low birth makes a hero with me
Hilary Mantel has made him sympathetic, others do not see him like that
Without actually knowing him, who knows for sure?
Politics or the game of power, is never a nice game then or now.....
It is too important for that
If something has to be done for the good of the country, or for whoever rules, somebody has to do it.
Cromwell's job was to serve the King, the morality was actually Henrys.
I admire Cromwell because of where he came from a son of a blacksmith, to very close to the top of society.
In fact he was de facto ruler for a time.
That was unheard of then. Cromwell was a very clever man, a man of ability, but also ruthless when needed.
Yes he was very streetwise, somebody had to be.
He was also a strong Protestant believer. Him and Cranmer drove Protestantism, without Henry being aware tbh.
Did not say a lot for Henry as King.
Cromwell destroyed the base of Catholicism the Monasteries. I feel this is his crime if he has one.
Henry never had better servant than Cromwell. One mistake downed Cromwell and it was a mistake. His judgement failed him for once.
Norfolk and others who hated him for his low birth pounced. Low Birth was the most heinous crime of all then.
Having communist/socialist inclinations his low birth makes a hero with me
Cromwell's job was to serve the King, the morality was actually Henrys.
Not true ebul. You are responsible for your own actions. German soldiers participating in war crimes used this argument. They where simply following orders.
Cromwell was a fixer and as you say ruthless, but he was prepared to do things others would not
.
And just because he was son of a blacksmith doesn't make him ok, or someone to look upto as he climbed the ranks.
Not true ebul. You are responsible for your own actions. German soldiers participating in war crimes used this argument. They where simply following orders.
Cromwell was a fixer and as you say ruthless, but he was prepared to do things others would not
. And just because he was son of a blacksmith doesn't make him ok, or someone to look upto as he climbed the ranks.
In those days his morality may not have been questioned
You defending Thomas More, he burnt six people, what does that do for your morality?
Thomas More did not do this for himself, he saw himself as defending the Catholic faith. Tyndale Bibles
were poring in.
He was a brave man who died for his faith.
I do not think Thomas More was bad, although I cannot accept the his 'Man of all Seasons' image.
Even now what about 'Guantanamo Bay', water boarding, rendition, peoples imprisoned there without trial
living in hopelessness
We has ex SAS officer Chris Ryan saying we should kill all British members of IS in Syria, without trial.
It shows people do drop morality if they think society is threatened, or those in charge think they are threatened.
Cromwell did nothing Henry did not want. But Henry could not be associated with bringing down More or Anne
his image had to be kept squeaky clean.
Cromwell served his King
You defending Thomas More, he burnt six people, what does that do for your morality?
Thomas More did not do this for himself, he saw himself as defending the Catholic faith. Tyndale Bibles
were poring in.
He was a brave man who died for his faith.
I do not think Thomas More was bad, although I cannot accept the his 'Man of all Seasons' image.
Even now what about 'Guantanamo Bay', water boarding, rendition, peoples imprisoned there without trial
living in hopelessness
We has ex SAS officer Chris Ryan saying we should kill all British members of IS in Syria, without trial.
It shows people do drop morality if they think society is threatened, or those in charge think they are threatened.
Cromwell did nothing Henry did not want. But Henry could not be associated with bringing down More or Anne
his image had to be kept squeaky clean.
Cromwell served his King
More's Man of All Seasons image, was too gentle, More was never that.
your hero worshipping of Cromwell ebul is rather disturbing
One of the most cruel, vicious and vindictive men of the Tudor period. With not an ounce of fair play or morality.
One of the most cruel, vicious and vindictive men of the Tudor period. With not an ounce of fair play or morality.
In the Man for all Seasons, they should have had Leo McKern play Sir Thomas More,(He looks just like him) and had Paul Schofield (Good ol' Sussex Boy!!) play Thomas Cromwell. History would have been so different
I have enjoyed this thread, but on a serious note, you cannot make absolute judgements on people's total morality or motivation during this period. Even a little research will demonstrate this.
true Blackbarn
One of the most cruel, vicious and vindictive men of the Tudor period. With not an ounce of fair play or morality.
you are making a very generalised judgment here I feel maleuk01
Hilary Mantel is questioning your judgement of this man.
As for More, well he was Catholic, Cromwell was protestant, not only would he have seen it his duty to bring down More
for his King but also for his religion.
Anyway he only smeared Thomas More to shake More's reputation for honesty.
It was Mores failure to accept to accept Henry as Supreme Head of the Church of England which led to his own death.
If he had done this he would have been left alone.
Anne Boleyn
Well that was a tough choice.
You see if he had not brought down Anne Boleyn, Henry would have deemed Cromwell would have failed, so he would then
have suffered the same fate as Wolsey. Failing Henry was fatal.
The fact that Cromwell knew Anne was after his own head made it easier for him.
I am not defending Cromwell's morality anyway. It is his importance that strikes me.
He was instrumental in changing this countries religion from Catholic to Protestant, this was a high very stakes then.
We have to look at this man as more just a pantomime villain, we really do.
One of the most cruel, vicious and vindictive men of the Tudor period. With not an ounce of fair play or morality.
you are making a very generalised judgment here I feel maleuk01
Hilary Mantel is questioning your judgement of this man.
As for More, well he was Catholic, Cromwell was protestant, not only would he have seen it his duty to bring down More
for his King but also for his religion.
Anyway he only smeared Thomas More to shake More's reputation for honesty.
It was Mores failure to accept to accept Henry as Supreme Head of the Church of England which led to his own death.
If he had done this he would have been left alone.
Anne Boleyn
Well that was a tough choice.
You see if he had not brought down Anne Boleyn, Henry would have deemed Cromwell would have failed, so he would then
have suffered the same fate as Wolsey. Failing Henry was fatal.
The fact that Cromwell knew Anne was after his own head made it easier for him.
I am not defending Cromwell's morality anyway. It is his importance that strikes me.
He was instrumental in changing this countries religion from Catholic to Protestant, this was a high very stakes then.
We have to look at this man as more just a pantomime villain, we really do.
I caught this weeks episode after missing a couple. I quite like it, it's nice and atmospheric.
I really like the main characters voice, it's velvety pleasing on the ear, he should do voice overs and audio books!
He's also a fantastic actor, I'm surprised I've not seen him in more things.
I really like the main characters voice, it's velvety pleasing on the ear, he should do voice overs and audio books!
He's also a fantastic actor, I'm surprised I've not seen him in more things.
Just Checking - I always work on the basis that wind-ups are best met head-on and in full - Are you unfamiliar with the actor Mark Rylance and/or his work
It's almost become a regular thing - watch Wolf Hall then come here for the debate and breakdown of the period via ebul and maleuk.
I actually am . Looking at things he's done I can't remember seeing any of it, and I'm not known for reading theatrical reviews. Just Philistine-ing 
But he is very good, so I know what I like :)
. Looking at things he's done I can't remember seeing any of it, and I'm not known for reading theatrical reviews. Just Philistine-ing But he is very good, so I know what I like :)
FlowerMyth • February 20, 2015 12:02 AM GMT
It's almost become a regular thing - watch Wolf Hall then come here for the debate and breakdown of the period via ebul and maleuk.
It's almost become a regular thing - watch Wolf Hall then come here for the debate and breakdown of the period via ebul and maleuk.
I should say that this is a work of fiction, so as such there can be no winner
Hilary is sticking to known facts, but the story she has created, we may as well be debating over the murder of Lucy Beal
Hilary is sticking to known facts, but the story she has created, we may as well be debating over the murder of Lucy Beal
Just Checking - Glad to learn you are not a wind up merchant but just an excellent judge (imo!) The bloke's nailed on for a Bafta best actor - been said elsewhere but he can act just with his eyes
Early Warning for those interested - there's some sort of thingy with Mark Rylance and Hilary Mantel on BBC4 at 10pm, after the last part of the series tonight.
ta Flower, I shall watch
and then probably come on here giving my historical interpretation as usual
and then probably come on here giving my historical interpretation as usual
There was an extract from the interview "thingy" on Newsnight last night. Quite illuminating, the bit I saw, particularly one of the sources for the stare/eyes. Defo worth a watch.
I loved this series.Mark Rylance was brilliant. He delivered his lines artfully and spoke volumes with his silences. What it lacked for me was backround, the gossip, the skulduggery ,the plotting for influence was largely absent and we never got the sense that Cromwell was in the kings trust,that he was working at the kings bidding or that the king favoured him at all.
I don't understand the complaint that it was "dark". Every shot was like a period painting.
I don't understand the complaint that it was "dark". Every shot was like a period painting.
Yes it was very interesting, it was with Mark Rylance and director Peter Kominsky
I thought the final episode was well done
The argument over whether Thom as Cromwell was good or bad, remain.
If he was bad then downing Thomas More and Anne Boleyn remains small crimes compared to the destruction of the Monasteries
If he had not downed Thomas More or Anne Boleyn then someone else would have done, it was Henry's wish.
Whether he did right in destroying the monasteries depends if one regards them as helping the poor or exploiting the poor.
I take your point Dobbo about showing more of the plotting that went on all round Henry.
But then this have would have made this series much longer.
They were working to Hilary's Mantel books, which I have not read.
I think Hilary Mantel is working on the last part of the Thomas Cromwell trilogy 'The Mirror and The Light'
and I assume in time it will be televised.
I like Thomas Cromwell because he rose from nothing to be the most powerful man in the Kingdom besides Henry himself.
Yes he was streetwise and brutal, but he had to be more than that, a very good judge of people a very intelligent man.
I thought the final episode was well done
The argument over whether Thom as Cromwell was good or bad, remain.
If he was bad then downing Thomas More and Anne Boleyn remains small crimes compared to the destruction of the Monasteries
If he had not downed Thomas More or Anne Boleyn then someone else would have done, it was Henry's wish.
Whether he did right in destroying the monasteries depends if one regards them as helping the poor or exploiting the poor.
I take your point Dobbo about showing more of the plotting that went on all round Henry.
But then this have would have made this series much longer.
They were working to Hilary's Mantel books, which I have not read.
I think Hilary Mantel is working on the last part of the Thomas Cromwell trilogy 'The Mirror and The Light'
and I assume in time it will be televised.
I like Thomas Cromwell because he rose from nothing to be the most powerful man in the Kingdom besides Henry himself.
Yes he was streetwise and brutal, but he had to be more than that, a very good judge of people a very intelligent man.
I missed tonight as I had a chess match ... but here's a thing - does anyone remeber a BBC play/film in the 1990's caled the Grass Arena about an alcoholic boxer - John Healy - who became a strong chess player once he sobered up in prison ? you can get it on you tube - i was fascinated by it at the time .. the guy who plays John Healy is Mark Rylance
I swa the Kaminsky / Rylance thing on Newsnight last night ... he does apppear a bit "effected" .. i cant watch these actors actors talking about "brave" and "pain" without thinknig of Team america and the Federation of Actors Guild !
Quality - 15/17 fer me...wonder what happened to his sons? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Cromwell,_1st_Baron_Cromwell#Death_and_succession
Died of Natural causes although only 31
Died of Natural causes although only 31
Ta!
Watched ANNE OF THE THOUSAND DAYS last night - utter cheesefest compared to Wolf Hall...cinema (now) can't compete with telly IMO. This has got to be the best time for telly ever. I was thinking to myself, "Jeez, only 6 episodes..." but every one was great...whereas I couldn't wait for ANNE OF THE THOUSAND DAYS to end. It was ponderous and overblown.
Apparently, Catherine of Aragon had reddish hair, fair complexion and blue eyes, but was played by black haired, dark eyed Irene Papas in the film...and I think Wolf Hall went down that route too, didn't it...?
Watched ANNE OF THE THOUSAND DAYS last night - utter cheesefest compared to Wolf Hall...cinema (now) can't compete with telly IMO. This has got to be the best time for telly ever. I was thinking to myself, "Jeez, only 6 episodes..." but every one was great...whereas I couldn't wait for ANNE OF THE THOUSAND DAYS to end. It was ponderous and overblown.
Apparently, Catherine of Aragon had reddish hair, fair complexion and blue eyes, but was played by black haired, dark eyed Irene Papas in the film...and I think Wolf Hall went down that route too, didn't it...?
Despite several suggestions on here, Gregory was Thomas Cromwell's ONLY son and despite dying young managed to survive the demise of his father, marry Jane Seymour's sister and leave the families finance and status in very good order. It appears he was very well prepared by his father.
Despite several suggestions on here, Gregory was Thomas Cromwell's ONLY son and despite dying young managed to survive the demise of his father, marry Jane Seymour's sister and leave the families finance and status in very good order. It appears he was very well prepared by his father.
Watched 2 episodes of The Six Wives series - Ye Olde 70s series - very different - stagey - but really quite good. The woman who wrote the first episode is still alive in her 90s...she was writing for the Indiana Jones series in her 80s.
Never heard of that, but I see it was where Keith Michell originally played Henry. Every time I click at random on a clip he seems to always be saying "Now, Madam". Glad to see Henry 8 had his own catchphrase.
Wolf Hall was excellent, I can't imagine it would have worked, though, with the state of technology at the time of the above TV series.
Wolf Hall was excellent, I can't imagine it would have worked, though, with the state of technology at the time of the above TV series.
I have two episodes left to watch. I'd just like to say (for now) that the humour has surprised me. In fact, it's cracked me up..
Guinness - are you talking about Six Wives or Wolf Hall?
Yours,
Confused of Slamannan.
Yours,
Confused of Slamannan.
Then you both need to watch it again. Below is a small extract from a critics review after just episode 1 (seeing as you think i'm a pie short of a picnic)
The dash of humour is what makes Hilary Mantel’s two Booker-winning novels Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies, set in the maelstrom of Tudor politics, so entertaining.
The dash of humour is what makes Hilary Mantel’s two Booker-winning novels Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies, set in the maelstrom of Tudor politics, so entertaining.
And as i said, i've two episodes left to watch yet. Who knows. i may well be giggling uncontrollably by then..
It may be in the books, but I can not see it the TV version, what is actually funny?
Ebel: the critics review below (even though the books are mentioned) was about the tv drama. Now i don't normally quote critics, but as my chuckle button was brought in question, i thought i'd mention it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/reviews/article-2920805/Wolf-Hall-review-plots-murky-cast-simply-dazzling.html
There is humour a plenty, for instance, the tête-à-têtes between Rylance and Mr Kiplings granddaughter (stunning performance) are hilarious.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/reviews/article-2920805/Wolf-Hall-review-plots-murky-cast-simply-dazzling.html
There is humour a plenty, for instance, the tête-à-têtes between Rylance and Mr Kiplings granddaughter (stunning performance) are hilarious.
Well, Shakey used to have the odd funny bit in the middle of tragedies, to release the tension.
One critic compared Henry VIII and Cromwell's walk n talks to Ted and Sir from The Fast Show.
One critic compared Henry VIII and Cromwell's walk n talks to Ted and Sir from The Fast Show.
Watched the final episode last night. A terrific series.
I see it's out on DVD at £18 -- shouldn't License Fee payers get a big discount - buy it for 5 or 6 quid? Feckin' paying for it twice.
HENRY VIII: Tell me Cromwell, do you like Tina Turner?
CROMWELL: Well, I really wouldn’t know about dat kinda ting, sir.
CROMWELL: Well, I really wouldn’t know about dat kinda ting, sir.
I noticed a trailer the other day for a film with Rylance in it, he's getting a taste for the screen?
He came across a little lovey and affected in that newsnight interview.
But still, a great performance, I won't try to take that away from him!
He came across a little lovey and affected in that newsnight interview.
But still, a great performance, I won't try to take that away from him!
I enjoyed the interview nearly as much as the series, I mean I don't mind the luviness so much as it was a series worth talking about. The idea to light it with candles worked really well, it probably wasn't technically possible back in the days of Keith Michell and videotape.
Yes FlowerMyth I don't want to sound too negative don't get me wrong, just, I was a little disappointed as he went down a tiny notch as I wasn't expecting him to be so .. thespeian, but he is a brilliant actor, no mistake.
When my life story is filmed, I want Rylance to do it. There is no higher recommendation :)
When my life story is filmed, I want Rylance to do it. There is no higher recommendation :)
I'm sat ere chuckling just thinking about Yosser ("gissa job: go on, i can do that") dressed as the Duke of Norfolk having an Anglo-Saxon rant at all and sundry.
I know what you mean, it was a bit, but it was probably the fact that the director was with him. I think he'd be interesting on his own, just an interview about his life and career. If he started calling anyone other than his wife darling though, it'd be time to lock and load.
Yes Guinness, it was Norfolk's "By the thrice be-shitten shroud of Lazarus" made me laugh when I read it, glad they kept it in.
Flower Myth - it just about WAS possible, back in the day, as Kubrick did it in Barry Lyndon, but it was probably very expensive.
"To achieve photography without electric lighting for the many densely furnished interior scenes... meant shooting by candlelight, which is known to be difficult in still photography, let alone with moving images...
The production got hold of three super-fast 50mm lenses (Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7) developed by Zeiss for use by NASA in the Apollo moon landings
which Kubrick had discovered in his search for low-light solutions. These super-fast lenses with their huge aperture (the film actually features the lowest f-stop in film history) and fixed focal length were problematic to mount, and were extensively modified into three versions by Cinema Products Corp. for Kubrick so to gain a wider angle of view..." WIKI.
The production got hold of three super-fast 50mm lenses (Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7) developed by Zeiss for use by NASA in the Apollo moon landings
which Kubrick had discovered in his search for low-light solutions. These super-fast lenses with their huge aperture (the film actually features the lowest f-stop in film history) and fixed focal length were problematic to mount, and were extensively modified into three versions by Cinema Products Corp. for Kubrick so to gain a wider angle of view..." WIKI.
Re candles etc : The advances in techology are incredible, a few years ago you needed a big lens and an expensive to get good results in low light, now, not really, and it's always moving forwards.
There's a bit of a fuss at the moment with drones and privacy. Mark my words (), when in 10-20 years time pretty much every cheap camera is so sensitive everyone has a night vision camera .. I think it may be worse.
There's a bit of a fuss at the moment with drones and privacy. Mark my words (
), when in 10-20 years time pretty much every cheap camera is so sensitive everyone has a night vision camera .. I think it may be worse.
I see, Val, the clip on youtube confirms it worked really well.
Gottfried Schalken...and Georges de la Tour...notorious candle fiends...Kubrick was only about 40 years ahead of his time by the looks of things...
But kubrick was of course working with chemical film technology, not modern technology.
You don't need F0.7 lenses now to film in low light.
You don't need F0.7 lenses now to film in low light.
In Six Wives they have a few banquet scenes that look deliberately artificial as you can see strong shadows on the wall, cast from each side by studio lights. They must have done that as an artificial, stagey way to get around the problem.
Fair enough Guinness...I am not tuned in to humour as much as I think..I thought you might mention Norfolk
Interesting program on BBC 4 just finished... Saints and Sinners..covered the dissolution of the Monasteries.
From studying bones of Monks from the time it was found they both eat and drank better than most ordinary people at the time.
There was also a high occurrence of Syphilis, so a fair bit of sex was going on, sodomy but also plenty of women.
One Abbot had 8
on the go, and it is a long way from the ideal of a monk's life of austerity
They were rich, sold false relics and indulgences, owned lots of land
They had been centres of knowledge, but by Henry VIII's time, the printing press had been invented, so not so much a need for scribes.
Also early universities like Oxford were appearing, so one could be educated without entering a monastery.
All this supports Cromwell's view of the monasteries of the time.
Interesting program on BBC 4 just finished... Saints and Sinners..covered the dissolution of the Monasteries.
From studying bones of Monks from the time it was found they both eat and drank better than most ordinary people at the time.
There was also a high occurrence of Syphilis, so a fair bit of sex was going on, sodomy but also plenty of women.
One Abbot had 8
on the go, and it is a long way from the ideal of a monk's life of austerityThey were rich, sold false relics and indulgences, owned lots of land
They had been centres of knowledge, but by Henry VIII's time, the printing press had been invented, so not so much a need for scribes.
Also early universities like Oxford were appearing, so one could be educated without entering a monastery.
All this supports Cromwell's view of the monasteries of the time.
The dissolution was efficiently handled by Cromwell. Henry VIII of course had to approve, but the riches persuaded him.
Less than 20 monks were actually killed, most were given small pensions or other jobs in the church. The monasteries
were systematically looted for everything of value. A few monasteries were spared and became Cathedrals.
There was rebellion in The North but this was suppressed by Cromwell. It only took 5 years 1536 to 1541.
Less than 20 monks were actually killed, most were given small pensions or other jobs in the church. The monasteries
were systematically looted for everything of value. A few monasteries were spared and became Cathedrals.
There was rebellion in The North but this was suppressed by Cromwell. It only took 5 years 1536 to 1541.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539