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These 340 comments are related to the topic:
Oscar Pistorious - Last day of freedom for some time

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Replies: 340
By:
bacontrout.
When: 12 Sep 14 15:44
^ That's exactly my point - one female witness was adamant she heard a female's 'blood curdling' scream, followed by some bangs...the judge said to her (and I believe others), you are outright wrong, you're mistaken, and you've become confused due to outside influences such as other witnesses and media reporting!? It seems the judge allowed herself subjectivity when assessing the witnesses, but Oscar was beyond reproach - again, despite her admitting she found his testimony implausible.
By:
mafeking
When: 12 Sep 14 15:47
just cos he burst into tears after doing it realising what he'd done doesn't mean he didn't completely lost the plot beforehand and killed her in blind rage

the tears were more likely to be for the situation in which he found himself than for her
By:
DartsnBooze
When: 12 Sep 14 16:20
Have Reeva's family made a statement? Sad

To all the blokes on here (and around the world) who are out on the razzle this weekend - Watch out! There's going to be a lot of pissed off women on the warpath looking to bring fury down on the male species. Especially men who brought hurt and humiliation to an ex, had better be extra vigilant.

Enjoy your weekend Devil
By:
A_T
When: 12 Sep 14 17:59
There was evidence that supported the prosecution's claim that he deliberately killed Reeva - the cries heard by neighbours, the text from Reeva saying Oscar scared her at times. Together with the unlikely idea that you assume someone in your toilet is a burglar and not your partner who you share a bed with and ought to notice if she's not there  - it makes a compelling case for murder.

For some reason the judge has chosen to dismiss all this and take the word of a man who she admits is unreliable and inconsistent. Bizarre...
By:
A_T
When: 12 Sep 14 18:01
I was not reassured either listening to the judge this morning - who seemed to struggle to construct a coherent sentence.
By:
Crisp77
When: 12 Sep 14 18:07
Sentences aren't her thing.
By:
fool proof
When: 12 Sep 14 18:10
They BBC were all over the judge a couple of days ago fawning because she is a black woman,But that's the BBC for you.
By:
Injera
When: 12 Sep 14 18:15
Guess I'm naive but I reckon he'll get 10 years...

A guilty verdict of murder is a mandatory (no parole) 25 years.

I don't understand why an athlete, albeit famous should be give this much favour and grace by the system and the Judge. The break (was it 6 weeks??!) to see if he was mentally stable was truly bizarre.

Fire 4 shots thru a locked door and you've chosen to kill...
By:
guinness2dear
When: 12 Sep 14 18:17
3 years max for me.

And wouldn't be at all surprised if he walked with community service..

I await the prosecutions response..
By:
Facts
When: 12 Sep 14 18:33
A_T

She was the same yesterday, and she reading from prepared sheets of text. You'd think the least she would do is to check all the sheets are there, and that they're in the correct order. She's on a world stage here, and completely drops the ball more than once. Embarrassing as well as insulting to the legal profession and to the relations and friends of the murder victim
By:
A_T
When: 12 Sep 14 18:34
most he'll get is a couple of years (halved with time of for good behaviour) in some cushy prison hospital type place. but would not surprise me if he doesn't see one single night in jail.
By:
Injera
When: 14 Sep 14 11:53
3 bullets hit the poor lass.

Not just any bullets...Dum Dum bullets, invented by the British and then outlawed from warfare. Designed for maximum and of course fatal damage to human tissue.

They spread and mushroom on impact. Passing thru the wooden door they would also have carried splinters into her body...

Sad
By:
Facts
When: 14 Sep 14 13:13
Yep, but the judge has decided he was only being very ' negligent '  !!
By:
Facts
When: 14 Sep 14 13:15
She said OP had no way of  knowing that 4 bullets of such nature, fired through the door, would actually kill the person in the toilet. Unbelievable statement !
By:
minardi
When: 14 Sep 14 13:28
I dont think her sheets were reading from were in wrong order she just had another browser open on screen for holiday / retirement homes .. the reason she adjourned so abruptly on day 1 was to get a deposit down on a place that had just come on the market ... South Africa is notoriously corrupt and this would not suprise me in the slightest.
By:
Injera
When: 14 Sep 14 13:31
Indeed. SA 'justice' system on trial here, not just OP.

Regular bullets often exit the body after impact. These ones slow up on impact (hence the 'mushrooming') so they stay inside the person for maximum damage.

The SA police are not allowed to use expanding bullets but the public can buy them.

They were outlawed by the Hague Convention in 1899
By:
Facts
When: 14 Sep 14 13:59
'........So although Judge Masipa surprised us with the speed with which she adjudicated on evidence and witnesses it's difficult to see legal mistakes in her analysis of why premeditated murder had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

That, unfortunately, is where the praise for sound legal reasoning must end. Unlike in many other jurisdictions around the world, you can also be found guilty of murder in South Africa if you could have forseen that your action that you performed could kill someone, but you still performed that action, in effect reconciling yourself with the eventual outcome - death - that will result from your action.

That is what is meant by that pretentious piece of Latin doing the rounds, 'dolus eventualis'. So if Pistorius did not kill Steenkamp as a result of premeditated, unlawful action, it doesn't yet follow in law that he is not guilty of murder.

In between premeditated murder and culpable homicide - which rests on proving the negligent killing of a person - we have two other murder categories in our law: indirectly intending to kill someone (and doing so) or foreseeing you would kill someone and reconciling yourself to that outcome (and then doing so).

We can set aside the idea of 'indirect intent'. It's not at issue in this case. It refers to a case in which, say, I walk into a packed restaurant and I intent to kill my lover and so I shoot at her. She is sitting with her friends and I fatally injure not her but her friend next to her. That kind of scenario is not at play in the Pistorius case.

The nub of the issue today is that 'dolus eventualis' business. And that's where Judge Masipa got it wrong.

Could Pistorius have forseen that shooting at the bathroom door four times would kill someone behind the door? Yes. Did he, knowing that, refrain from shooting? No.

Did he shoot only once, maybe accidentally, such that we might say it's reasonably possibly true he did not reconcile himself to killing the person behind the door? No, he fired four shots, not in rapid succession either, and while controlling the firearm.

He didn't suffer an epileptic seizure that can be described as a loss of voluntary control over your body. Things didn't happen to his body. He acted. Deliberately, intentionally with a view to landing bullets in the body of a person behind that door. All of this by his own testimony and in light of the evidence of shots fired, the number of shots fired and time lapses between each one. He should therefore have been found guilty of murder.

It is a textbook case of dolus eventualis and if this was a criminal law exam Judge Masipa would barely pass: she stated the law correctly (though even this is a generous description since she failed to flesh it out in adequate detail appropriate for such a complex case) but then hopelessly failed to apply the legal standard accurately to the evidence before her, including the testimony of Pistorius himself.

So why did Judge Masipa, you might wonder, think the requirements of dolus eventualis was not met? Here it gets embarrassing I'm afraid. This test in law is a subjective one. We have to ask what Pistorius was thinking. Pistorius told us he thought Steenkamp was asleep in bed. Judge Masipa believes him and takes this as proof that Pistorius did not desire the death of someone behind that bathroom door.

But that is blatantly a misapplication of the law. Who cares if Pistorius sincerely believed Steenkamp was in the bedroom fast asleep? The question is whether he foresaw any human being behind that door - Xolani or Piet or Marita or nameless intruder - dying if he were to shoot at them through that door four times? So it's not legally relevant that Pistorius genuinely didn't think Steenkamp was in the bathroom. The murder charge holds so long as he believed SOMEONE was there, foresaw that four shots in that direction could kill them and reconciled himself to that outcome. And he did.

It gets worse: Pistorius' defence is that he intentionally shot at the door to neutralise a perceived threat. He just didn't think his voluntary shooting was unlawful. But by the standards of dolus eventualis, properly applied, he committed murder in South African law.

Nel can start filing his appeal papers. His prospects are surely good. Judge Masipa won't be the last judge to have a verdict overturned.......'
By:
A_T
When: 14 Sep 14 14:17
Also her interpretation of the evidence was bizarre. Why would anyone assume a person in their toilet was an intruder - when their partner was in the house? Why would you think your partner was asleep next to you when she wasn't? OP's story made no sense.
By:
mafeking
When: 14 Sep 14 14:25
in the UK doubt the jury would have taken more than 3 or 4 hours to find him unaminously guilty
By:
Wesdag
When: 14 Sep 14 15:39
I'm really at a loss as to why the judge pretty much dismissed the prosecution case but yet found in favour of OP's intruder story when there was absolutely no facts supporting this version other than his courtroom performance.

Also amazed that she found him an evasive and unreliable witness but yet believed his account.
By:
Injera
When: 14 Sep 14 17:04
Facts - that's a pretty damning summary.

Reeva's whereabouts is irrelevant to the whole case. OP knew SOMEONE was behind that door and he fired 4 times in such a way and with such bullets, to kill.

As an aside it never helped the State that the crime scene was contaminated. A copper stole one of OP's watches and the gun was handled without gloves, by a ballistics expert!!!!
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