Slarty, I've some time for Gore Vidal, a remarkable mind. I share his disgust at the Bush regime and how it twisted American values to defend the indefensible. However, I fear this has clouded his judgement, I saw an interview with him shortly before (or maybe actually on) the night of the US elections and whilst he was still impressively passionate, he did seem to have lost the ability to look at things rationally.


I'd not heard of Alan Hart, but if you read his personal website he's clearly gone even further, it's staggeringly prejudiced  in it's nature. I'm being selective, these are the opening phrases.

Defenders of Israel right or wrong continue to assert that the absence of peace is all the fault of the Palestinians.

In one sense they are right. When the Palestine file was closed by Israel’s victory (ethnic cleansing and all) on the battlefield in 1948, the Palestinians were supposed to accept their lot as the sacrificial lamb on the altar of political expediency.

Vidal's piece was from 2002 - perhaps when he was less irrational.

I agree Hart clearly has a passionate dislike of Zionism which ought to be taken into account. But his views are still noteworthy given his background and knowledge of the Middle East.

If Gvt's are so good at keeping secrets; why are they so sh*t at everything else?

Slarty, if there's one thing that chit-chat has taught me, it's that intelligence and knowledge are rendered impotent by lack of wisdom and abundance of prejudice. David Irving may well be a talented historian, for example. Anyone, who given the opportunity of expressing their own views and making their arguments, begins by making a sweeping and false accusation to those opposing their view loses any credibility IMO.

That may be so but their prejudice does not necessarily affect the veracity (or otherwise)of their claims. Just because someone is an opinionated loon doesn't make them wrong.

Of course, but it does make their opinion less worth listening to. We have limited time.

How was Gore Vidal showing irrationality in the footage you mention sparkmaster? Do you have a link?

Let's go back to the beginning and start again.
It may be worth stating when your suspicions were first raised(or not,for the matter).
Within the first few hours - less than 12hrs,if I remember correctly - it was being reported on the TV news,that Mohammad Atta and others were the suspects in the 9/11 attacks.
I recall being shocked that they could have this information,and release it so quickly,as obviously there had been no investigation by then.
It was almost like they had the names just lying there,ready to be published.
That was the first time I thought that somethings not quite right with this.

So,thy simply got the passenger lists out and looked for any foreign looking names?
If the news media could so confidently say that they were the main suspects,that would imply that those names were known before the event.
That being the case,how did they managed to get through security with the
box cutters etc?
Why would the terrorists have checked in under their own names,wouldn't they have had some false ID?

.

I'm not going around the houses with everyone again!

We're back to the standard conspiracy theory questions that Clocky doesn't understand and aren't his own. In fairness though, I am no more an expert in the areas he mentions than he is.

We've done it all before and I haven't the energy, to be honest.




And there you have it, Ladies & Gentleman. No answers to simple questions. I've done the research Orioles - I don't just google "debunk 9/11" and C&P.



Sib - there were no passenger manifests produced. The "lists" were printed as "reported" and included significant errors, not just with passenger names but in spellings and missing names. Do you hoenstly believe that flight manifests are not accurate?



And this is the crux of the problem. People don't have time to research this properly, so dismiss anyone who has.


So, can anyone please tell me how the tip of an aluminium wing can cut through steel I beams? Or were the cartoon plane shapes in the towers created from the inside?

Can anyomne tell me the maximum safe speed of a 757 & 767 at sea level?

Can anyone tell me how much thicker the air is at sea level compared to 30,000 feet?

Can anyone tell me how a plane can breach a bomb proof wall at the Pentagon but when hitting lamp posts only knocks them a couple of feet from where they stood?

Can anyone tell me what temperature is required to cremate a human body but not paper and plastic and bandanas?


Anyone?

clockwork, if they had assumed names, you would be on here asking how could the might of the US Gvt have failed to pick up false names - proof it was a conspiracy.  You have your conclusion set before, not after, any evidence.

I've done the research Orioles

I'm sorry, Clocky, but that is simply not true.

You regurgitate material from the web, from partial sites, or having invested the information with your belief that there is a conspiracy. Rather obviously therefore, if it is invalid to reference analysis from a debunking site, then your own material is similarly useless. Incidentally, if I c&p any material, no matter what the subject, and there is any doubt as to the source, I indicate a c&p – a technique you might usefully employ.

Your questions are not genuinely searching, they are a clumsy means of setting up a 'reveal', which itself will often be an assertion, presented as irrefutable fact, that fits the story: you are working backwards from a pre-determined point, not investigating anything (it seems ironic that conspiracy theory fans often adopt sobriquets like ‘truther’, when they are using a process that risks missing the truth).

That is not investigation, it is fabrication, and a hypothesis built using such glaring dishonesty, is no hypothesis at all.

I've asked Clocky for years to show ANY of his supposed research, even before he quit the forum never to return (twice). Yet to see any.

Why?

The millions of tv channels, newspapers, websites throughout the world are owned by 'the people that stage false flag attacks'? They must be very well-off.

BonVivvy, if it were true and you knew it to be so don't you think you might be more than a little bit wary of blabbing about it? A) People would brand you a nutjob, due to the way our culture views such ideas; and B) you might be afraid of the consequences of speaking out. By way of historical precedent, there were apparently several mysterious deaths among the witnesses to the JFK assassination whose testimony diverged from the official story (ie LHO acted alone etc as per the Warren Commission).

ever heard of Jack Ruby ?

Here's something else I don't understand,taken from the Wikipedia entry for Mohammad Atta

.....Because the flight from Portland to Boston had been delayed,his bags did not make it onto Flight 11. Atta's bags were later recovered in Logan International Airport, and they contained airline uniforms, flight manuals, and other items. The luggage included a copy of Atta's will.....

eh?
So,he packed his bags for a suicide trip did he?
Why did he pack airline uniforms?....surely if his luggage had made it on to flight 11 it would have been in the hold.Not much good there really,unless he intended to get in to the hold and put one of the uniforms on?
Why he would need to wear an airline uniform to hijack a plane is unclear to me.
Seemed a bit daft to put his will in the luggage as well, 'cause that would have been destroyed in the explosion wouldn't it?
And how he managed to fly that plane without the flight manuals he felt the need to pack is another mystery I'm sure you'll agree.

Can anyone expalin any of this to me?
Sparky....Sunset....Orioles....anyone?



This does seem a bit strange, but don't see that it really proves anything.The airline uniforms could have been may be for plan b. They might have not made it through security. May be there was a plan b to pretend to be airline crew. As for the will ,yes that is a bit strange. What should he have done with it though? He couldn't be sure that he would be successful that day.


Are you going to start answering my questions at some point?

Pardon?