Cheltenham Festival
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Altior
Altior
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I vehemently disagree: Altior (pure class) walked all over Min in the Supreme last season, the same result in the Arkle this season. Of the present novice chasers Yorkhill will be the most likely for the CH if Faugheen and Annie Power are absent - also a good reason to avoid Altior, and Min could go the JLT.
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min injured early in the race you refer to. min way better over jumps..bring it on i say!!
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I keep hearing that Min was injured during the race, does anyone actually know how serious it was? if it was that bad Ruby would of pulled Min up and it wasn't as if Min was stopping at the end. Altior beat him fair and square in my eyes. Visually Altior looks a chaser who will win over any trip and Min looks a 2 miler and that's it. Yorkhill on the other hand looks just like Altior trip wise. I think he could give Altior the race not min. That wont happen tough
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Altior was very professional today but another long odds on romp doesn't really tell us much other than he still deserves to be favourite and is the one to beat - just as he was before the season started.
Given his main market rivals (Yorkhill, Min, BVD, Top Notch etc) have been equally impressive in their early chases not much has changed since the season started. Also Sprinter Sacre was well beat in the Supreme by Al Ferof yet pee'd all over him in the Arkle - not saying it will be the case with Altior and Min but closing your mind to the possibility purely based on hurdles form is very simplistic. |
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Altior beat Min, Willie's talking horse/hotpot and Buveur D'air in the Supreme by an easy 7 lengths whereas Douvan beat Shaneshill who does not possess the pace to win over 16f the season before. I hope Willie will allow Douvan to take on Altior next season in the QMC.
However, I do not envisage Yorkhill will do battle with Altior in the Arkle next March but be glad to be proven wrong; Min might not either if Yorkhill goes the CH route similarly to Yanworth if Faugheen and Annie Power are absent. Even if these two make it to Cheltenham it is unlikely neither would improve and/or be as good as prior to their respective time off/injury. |
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Agree entirely Unclepuncle. Apart from finding out that Altior and Min can bully largely inferior opposition, I'm not sure we are any the wiser than before the season started, yet both are much shorter.
The best performance has been Altior's beating of Charbel, who to be fair, is a decent yardstick. Opposition to these two does seem really thin on the ground though, so I's have to pick Min at the prices, but with the stingy 1/5 odds ew most bookies are doing antepost, I couldn't back him at 7/2. |
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Will he a other run before Cheltenham
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Henderson said he would probably go straight there - did the same last year after he won the novice hurdle on Boxing Day.
I expect Min will run once more in the Irish Arkle in late January - Douvan won it last year on his way to Cheltenham. |
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Sure I read Henderson quoted as saying he may run Altior in the Game Spirit.
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^I based my post on his post race interview on Ch4.
Iirc he did go for the Game Spirit with Sprinter Sacre when he was a novice. If Altior went and beat some decent older horses easily would they be tempted by the Champion Chase - especially if something went wrong with Douvan? TBH take Douvan out and the Champion Chase looks a hell of a lot easier than the Arkle. |
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If Altior takes the Game Spirit Chase route and wins handsomely then reroutes to the Champion Chase I'd gladly tear-off my antepost voucher of 5/1 for Altior in the Arkle as I believe come 2018 connections of Douvan will do whatever possible not to engage Altior in any 2m chases until Champion Chase day; Thistlecrack will be waiting for Douvan in the King George 2017 and Gold Cup 2018, no hiding place for Douvan much longer.
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PP gone 8/11 Altior
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not one bit afraid of Altior
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not sure douvan will ever go up in trip myself...proper 2 miler, so normal nonsense post from the glue sniffer 123
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Jesus I got very aggressive there, Harry!
I could see Mullins happy to rattle off 3 champion case wins as well myself and he'd be hoping that they'd find another Gold Cup horse more organically. I'd say Valseur Lido blowing out will relieve him as I doon't really think they truly believed in Outlander. He'll feel gigginstown haven't really taken a star from him. Blow by Blow went off a big enough price at punchestown to suggest they maybe didn't think he was a superstar. |
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"If they were so convinced about Altior in Henderson's, why did he go off 4/1 for the Supreme"
Have you not heard of difference in stable towards betting or a stable very prone to housing "talking horses" eg Min.If in doubt, please check what price Sprinter Sacre (SS) was in 2016 Champion Chase? Who trained SS? Whose runner did SS beat? Was SS favourite? Douvan beat a sacrificial lamb in Shaneshill (S) who was not a 2m horse. If in doubt, what distances have S been running over since that defeat by Douvan? 2m? Also, L'ami Serge, 2nd fav to Douvan in the Supreme had a nightmare of a race; check also what those behind Douvan in the Supreme had done since? Every Douvan's victory since the Supreme had been long odds-on (shortest 4/7); if Douvan was so good he could have run in the Tingle Creek (2016) against seasoned 2m chasers ie those that ran against S, but connection chose not too. I dearly hope in 2018 Altior and Douvan will meet at least once, and I'd certainly put my money where my mouth is! |
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You're comparing a horse coming back from problems that hadn't impressed at Kempton over Christmas with an unbeaten novice hurdler!
The comment re talking horses is so inane it isn't even worth debating. |
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Apologies if it appears I'm slagging you off, here. But the idea that Mullins is hiding Douvan from the best 2 milers is f$cking crazy.
Leopardstown, Cheltenham, Punchestown is where he goes with his best horses. He would've pissed up in the Tingle Creek and you know he would've as well. |
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Henderson's is the biggest punting jumps yard in England. Sprinter Sacre was not fancied.
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Any Altior Arkle backers concerned by the Champion Chase entry? Henderson seems to be considering it. Really hope it is only a precaution should Douvan not line up and he isn't thinking of taking him on.
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Also is anyone concerned about Hugh Bonneville coming back from injury and breaking up the partnership Altior has formed with Fehily? I know Bonneville rode him over hurdles but Fehily knows him well over fences now and I'd prefer him to keep the ride.
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I'm not a backer but I'd say there is absolute zero chance that Altior would be allowed anywhere near Douvan in his novice year.
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It is always concerning but nothing any of us can really do about it. Another reason why i am never a one bet pony kinda guy lol and prefer to build up a nice book.
I am not a fan of switching jockeys though, horses get to know their pilots well and vise versa and i personally don't think it is fair on either party whatever the reason! |
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"Henderson's is the biggest punting jumps yard in England" - what a load of tosh!
Talking horses from Mullins' stable: in 2015 it was Douvan; in 2016 it was Min; in 2017 it was supposed to be Senewalk (?). I do have a voucher for Altior at 5/1 for the Arkle but would gladly forego if he goes the Champion Chase route should Douvan not make it; Altior is all class, and it also sends a message that horses are for running and not "managed" to win easy races at all costs. I hope Altior will meet Min in the Arkle to show the connections of the latter, once and for all, the 2016 Supreme Hurdle result was no fluke. |
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Min was never held in the same esteem as Douvan, they were never happy with him last year and I for one was told categorically he would not win at Cheltenham.
I see you don't address the fact that you said they were 'hiding' Douvan, if you believe that you are completely wrong. Mullins is on record as saying that the horse was not pleasing them in his work early season. So do you suggest they run the horse when he is not right? |
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And I don't know how you haven't figured that the Henderson yard is a humongous punting yard, gargantuan! Do you actually follow the sport?
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for an example of a Henderson horse that was fancied in the Supreme novices, My Tent or Yours is one.
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I'll tell you how highly they rated Altior as a novice hurdler in Henderson's, he went off 2/1 against Maputo at the open meeting.
He is a horse that has gotten better with racing and I'd say they are very surprised at how good he is turning out to be. He is not in the league of a horse like Douvan, though. |
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Altior (2/1) had only two races prior to meeting Maputo (5/2, rated 115 on the flat and five hurdle races) who was unfortunately injured in the race and retired as result
Min was never held in the same esteem as Douvan (really?) yet he was backed into 15/8 compared to Douvan's 2/1 for the Supreme - please check your facts prior to posting! My Tent Or Yours: who owns it? JP, and what does JP like to do? Backed his horses, and has been doing so including his recent races but to no avail. If I get a penny for all the misinfo/half-truths that permeate from Mullins' mouth/stable/associates I'd be a very rich person - the debacle prior to the ill-fated Vautour late gatecrashing of the 2016 Ryaniar was the mother/father of them all! When Altior and Douvan do meet in 2018 I'd back the former with confidence, and I believe the bookies would make him fav over Douvan - Douvan beat little in the 2015 Supreme! |
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That was just punters latching onto mullins after Vautor and Douvan, he was not fancied within the stable. they were never happy with him the whole season. Mullins could've run the stable cat and it would've gone off favourite such was the fervour built on the previous 2 years. That wasn't stable money.
Nothing whatsoever wrong with my facts. If I recall correctly, you were berating Tony McFadden on the main forum as being a poor journalist when your own facts within your own post were incorrect. you then went on to say that you shouldn't be held to the standards of a journalist. Maputo was considered by nobody to be a serious novice hurdler, 115 on the flat or not. Trained by John Ferguson, need I say more. If you really think My Tent or Yours was backed in the Supreme just because he is owned by JP, you're dead wrong again, Henderson never hid his admiration for the horse and he pissed up in the Betfair Hurdle, that was why he was backed. And once again, do you still maintain that they are 'hiding' Douvan? Frankly, I don't care whether you think Altior is a better horse than Douvan, it was your original assertion that they were 'hiding' Douvan that was completely ridiculous. |
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The reason why Douvan must be a top-class horse is because the best jockey who has ever lived and has ridden the likes of Kauto Star, Denman, Masterminded, Big Bucks, Vautor, and Hurricane Fly says he is one of the best he has ever ridden. Walsh has absolutely no reason to lie.
This is backed up by Paul Townend who is also a brilliant jockey and ridden loads of top horses on the gallops and on the track. He says Douvan is the best he has ridden over fences. Again, he has no reason to make that up. Why do you think they are saying this, for his stallion career? to heap more pressure on themselves? No they are saying it because it is what they truly thing, and they are opinions as educated as you will get. If Douvan belongs in the list of horses above as Walsh and Townend think, he isn't ducking anything. |
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what they truly think*
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Let's stick to the subject at hand ie Altior against Douvan, and not McFadden which I have dealt with at length. Fyi I'd not listen to or follow the advice of self-proclaimed "tipsters" who are parasites of the industry; if tipsters would/could make a living thro' betting winners I'd be the 1st to give them enormous credit and accolade.
Ar Mad was scratched from the Arkle last year (the one that Douvan won) because of injury yet ran in the Tingle Creek wheres Douvan, despite Mullins stating he was READY to run several days earlier yet did not show, and UDS ran instead; if Douvan was such a prolific performer he'd have 'eaten' the Tingle Creek field alive just 90% fit. Douvan beat nothing of significance in the Supreme ie Shaneshill, 2nd, had been proven does not have the pace for 2m and been campaigned over 20-24f since, and the rest...... Mullins has a proven habit of "ducking" with his horses eg Faugheen, Annie Power, Hurricane Fly, etc - why he had/did not rum them against one another then?; if Gigginstown had not taken away their horses from Mullins Apple's Jade would not have run against Vroum Vroum Mag and beat her; Outlander; possibly Petit Mouchoir against Faugheen (if he turns up) in the Irish Champion Hurdle later this month. If Ruby tells me tomorrow is thursday I'd check with my laptop, mobile and calendar for confirmation rather than accepting his words as gospel! Horse racing is mainly about opinions hence the divergence in prices by bookies for instance; you are for Douvan, and I definitely Altior and should they meet in the Tingle Creek in 2017 or year 2018 one of us will be proven right or wrong, simple! |
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Mullins doesn't duck races, he keeps his horses apart - very different.
Why should he run a half fit horse in a G1, potentially risking his season? Just to prove to you that he's any good? Altior has potential, but comparing him to an unbeaten 6 times G1 winning chaser, is hugely premature. |
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I cannot see the problem with somebody comparing Altior with Douvan.
Both where unbeaten novice hurdlers both winning the Supreme Novice Hurdle, I would say Altior's festival race was a lot better than Douvan's, no fault of Douvan he can only beat what's put in front of him. Douvan went his novice chase season unbeaten winning the Arkle, at Aintree and at Punchestown after that largely beating the same horses again, again no fault of his own. So far Altior has gone unbeaten through his novice chase season. There seems quite a lot of similarities to me, I would even go as far as saying Altior's form at this stage of his career is probably better than Douvan had achieved at the same stage. They're both fantastic horses who I think will both win their respective races at this years festival and then we will surely get then against each other come March 2018 if all goes well. |
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It was a good opportunity for UDS, and the stable won the race anyway. It was not a duck.
I'm not engaging with this debate any more as it is completely pointless.I think we are having two separate arguments, now. The subject at hand was you saying Mullins was ducking with Douvan, that was what I was taking issue with. He was doing nothing of the sort, as everybody else here can see except you. I mentioned Altior in particular because he is a horse that the Henderson camp themselves clearly weren't sold on until after the Supreme Novice Hurdle. I mentioned McFadden, because you were telling me my facts were wrong. |
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No issue with someone preferring Altior over Douvan, Premier. Just the ducking point which I thought was crazy.
Mullins does everything in his power to keep his good horses apart, completely different from ducking. If Mullins runs Douvan in the Tingle Creek instead of UDS, he then has to run him at Leopardstown against UDS, making no sense to anybody in the Mullins camp including the owners as UDS takes a beating and Douvan has a harder race than a race without UDS in it. The racing public miss out, but Mullins isn't doing it out of fear of another stable's horse, he's doing it to mop up as many Grade 1s as he can in as efficient a manner as he can. I'd blame the programme book more than the trainer, too many opportunities and maybe races like the one at Ascot in January should be Grade 2's where the likes of Douvan must give weight. |
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Re Altior, he isn't the kind of horse they'd duck. If Thistlecrack were a 2miler and running in the Tingle Creek, than that might have made a material difference to running plans.
Nothing that ran in the Tingle Creek had a material impact on what Mullins going to do with Douvan, the decision was based on them having UDS in their own stable who could win the race. |
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Absolutely, plenty of bigger days for Douvan ahead of him, but for the likes of UDS it is going to be a lot more limited regards winning the top grade races, common sense to let him run in the TC instead of Douvan.
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