Cheltenham Festival
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The cult of Don Poli
The cult of Don Poli
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I really hope that DC gets round for a start so there's none of this oh yeah he'd have won 10l.
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John's Spirit
 now rated 145. Was he a little bit lazy in the Ryanair?Anyway like I say I really hope he stands up in the GC and then we'll see. |
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Another difference I think with the laziness is that I think that DC responds pretty quickly when the jockey asks him, DP takes longer.
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clutching at straws @john, JS was 160 rated that season almost won the PP GC carrying top weight and wasn't far away in the KG.
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Slower
i am sure an excuse could be found for Sir Dons poor Ryanair run just like you have given for all Cue Cards |
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I'm not making excuses for CC I'm only stating what I thought was common knowledge?
Wetherby ( 24 Sft ,RPR170 ) After last year when \bCue Card\p was troubled by a trapped epiglottis, which was so bad he could hardly trot up our gallop without gurgling, it is wonderful to see him back to something like his best. We brought him in a month early this time and he´s been brilliant all the way through. We couldn´t risk bringing him here unless we were convinced he was fit. He´s in the Hennessy, and on Tuesday morning he´ll also be entered in the Betfair Chase, so we´ve got options - Colin Tizzard, trainer. There are enough for you to make excuses for DC for the Ryanair he seems to have plenty when gets beaten apart from he's simply not good enough. The KG that John's Spirit ran okay in was hardly a classic renewal? When it comes to the crunch personally don't think DC winning form adds up to much, some of the horses he's beat are woeful and on 3 big occasions in the Ryanair, the KG and the Sun Alliance he's come up short. Just think he's a flat track bully and until he wins a KG or GC I won't change my mind. When the going gets tough DC gets done. |
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The operation didn't transformed him into a wonder horse, he always was a top class performer, that operation only helped him with staying trips as at the end of 3 miles he chocked. No one wants you to change your mind, its a discussion where the best argument prevails. You came forward with some sketchy ones denigrating Don's form and accusing all the rating organizations forgetting that in your initial post you were applauding them and pointing fingers at the novice ratings of Poli and Cossack. You can't have it both ways.
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So you just dismiss a Punchestown Gold Cup a race the great Kauto Star tried and failed in.
All Cue Card has done is smashed up the same old grade 2 two an half milers that Conti normally does.Cue Card has failed more times than Sir Don on the big stage,Supreme Arkle also thrashed in three King George's until he burgled one. Yes he is a good horse but Sir Don holds him on all form especially that King George run. |
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burgled one
 like that |
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Where does this Sir Don business come from? Pretty quick journey to the poor house getting emotionally involved in that way. You can debate it both ways regarding the King George but to say anything definitively like "especially" about the race is too much in my view. Cue Card is clearly a different horse this year. Beating John's Spirit by a few lengths in that Aintree race is illustrative enough of that.
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"Sir Don holds him on all form especially that King George run."
Just LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL |
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Not sure why the Supreme and Arkle are getting mentioned,hardly big failures,especially finishing 2nd to Sprinter over 2 miles!!
Also a tad confused re DC holding CC on all form especially the KG?? CC wins and DC falls when in 3rd place and no way of knowing what would have happened had he not fallen. I know which one I would rather have in the Gold Cup, especially at the prices. The one whose favourite track is Cheltenham. DC is obviously a big danger though, his ratings consistently achieved tell us that, but this CC is a different horse this season. |
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The question that always spins in my mind when posters seem to be so incredibly intent on winning arguments by points about the relative merits of horses is whether the same posters have confidence in their own reading of the form book. It just seems odd to write so many argumentative posts and replies if you actually believe what you're writing! This is a game of opinions, so I think it's unreasonable to expect to sway someone with an argument when they clearly view the same form lines differently.
For what it's worth, I don't think either of the Dons win this Gold Cup . |
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That is the point bud. A different horse THIS season. People become set in their ways when opposing horses and stubbornly don't back down. Also, these same ilk are keen to continue backing horses who have consistently failed them.
Be wrong, its fine. Just don't be wrong over and over when there is no need to be. |
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CC always a high class horse but over staying trips he chocked near the end, at least thats what his trainer keeps saying. The wind op and the fact that he relaxes more this season means he handles 3 miles better but stamina concerns for the GC trip still exist - not from his connections but with some punters. Thats right he failed and failed over and over in the KG, yet some people still were on him this time around. I guess new evidence like his Betfair Chase performance meant those people could still hold faith.
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timtin I don't want it both ways, all I was saying that the DP cult could take comfort in the fact DP was a better novice chaser regardless of what official mark he had, he achieved more that's hard to argue.
Official ratings have CC 176 DC 175 Vautour 174 Djakadam 170 DP 167 so even on that DC isn't the top. Marks are only expert opinions are open to errors personally in a GC I wouldn't look at the OR it wouldn't come into my consideration. I just don't think DC form is that much to write home about, the Aintree form I treat with utter caution as CC did not run to his best and if you think he did you are kidding yourself. No doubt his Punchestown form is by far his best performance but imo Punchestown form sometimes can be slightly dubious because some horses are over the top. The jasey comment "Sir Don holds him on all form especially that King George run." That's convinced me DC is the best horse and I apologise for ever thinking otherwise. |
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Eternal you're a ballax,ye got there b4 me,this SIR business must come from the same ejits that christened that other ejit from ATR,not aftertiming but had 40/1 winner £10er ew in 3m graded hurdle sp 14/1 trained by FAHY I think and GODS OWN £20ew @ 25/1 and then 20/22 @50 and 20/22 @ 5.5/6 2pl both these with BF at PUNCHESTOWN GODS OWN that is the 1st with BV the reason behind these bets were never travelled to the festivals those year's and thought as others have done that horses can be over the top come PUNCHESTOWN so there may be credence in the argument about the SIR'S end of season form,and if I have to can cut'n'paste the god's own thing only not tonight dying with the cold and enjoying the hot BUSHMILLS
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I'm drinking Elijah Craig so I understood every word of that.
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Good lad
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Cumon the "Sir Don" is just a bit of fun.
Slower: no need to apologise you have been Donverted and seen the light nothing wrong with that. OK some of the stuff i put about Cue Card is just mischief making but i still can't have him and i expect his well to be dry come GC day although i do think he should be fav. The only horse i fear is the mighty Vautour. |
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Maybe jasey but an awful lot of skin is placed in the game when you personalise it? How often have we heard of people following a specific horse over a cliff? To quote from De Niro in Heat (kind of) never have so much emotional involvement that at any point you can't walk away.
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Big fan of the poli simply becauce I backed him at 14/1 for the Martin Pipe and again last year for the RSA. If there is a cult around it has to be Don Cossack, has never won at Cheltenham, his extradionary rating is based on Aintree and Punchestown, love his followers after the King George, if he stayed up he'd have won, but he didn't, jumping is the name of the game. If the Poli is there at the bottom of the hill with a chance he'll come up it the best, have a look at both his wins especially when he hits the hill.
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I think the race was conclusive.
Some of these posters may need to look at their views afresh. |
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It's a shame the race was inconclusive,after never been put in the race Don poli finished full of running up the hill,for what it's worth I backed both the don s!
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He was always going to finish full of running up the hill.
He simply never had the pace to get competitive unfortunately. |
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He may well not have but what does a jockey do to encourage a horse? I repeat O'Leary described him as a big lazy bugger. Look at his previous races. The horse takes the mickey out of his jockey. Look at when he beat Many Clouds. He was being pushed and shoved for a mile before laughing at that horse in the last furlong. I don't recall any of his winning races where the jockey hasn't had to encourage him to switch on. The issue being raised is Russell sitting still throughout the race until it was way too late. That can work for some horses. Not this one.
And I was one of those who was convinced the horse would lack tactical speed to do the job. I never for one minute thought he'd be jumped off at the back and left there. |
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The issue being raised is Russell sitting still throughout the race until it was way too late.
I disagree with this. He is asking the horse plenty early enough imo. He isnt sitting still from about a mile and a half out. |
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The difference this time was that for once he had proper grade 1 horses in front of him with more class to boot and equal amounts of stamina (certainly in DC's case) to get by, so although he made ground, it had little effect.
If Russell had spent the whole race pushing and shoving him non stop, which is what he would have had to do to keep tabs, he'd have bottomed him when the race really started anyway, all horses have their comfort zone to race at (monkey or not) force him the whole way and he'd have been fooked. If he'd have had the likes of many clouds to catch he'd have been plenty close enough and with the exact same ride would have had Russell nudging him past to victory with all his fans saying bravo Don Poli, only does just enough. |
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Spot on Duffy.
I think that was Don Polis best performance to date as well. |
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There was a point on the 2nd circuit where the pace steadied and the ones behind including DP momentarily closed, I bet at that point his supporters all thought "here he comes", the trouble was dc and djak, were too classy to get back.
Agree with jasey he ran his race, but he would have been killed trying to go the early pace and would have been beat out of sight , on his own was outpaced from the word go remember with his jockey trying to lay up with them, even brennan decided to lay off from it for a good while. |
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Smad Place is another example,a very similar thing happened to him as what he suffered in the KG, although this time he led he was still going faster than he was comfortable with and this impacted on him late on, yes he stays but he was still going backwards at a rate of knots at the end, why?, because he was emptied through the race being forced to run faster than he was comfortable with and it hurt him, just like the KG.
The class of DC was able to lay up with the pace, stay there and then finish it off. Russell got DP precisely as close as any jockey would have done, that's as good as he is. |
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I suggest some of you go and have a look at the ride McCoy gave a very similar type in Synchronised. The horse was never in his comfort zone with McCoy always several lengths off the pace but constantly nudging and pushing the horse and thus coming down the hill close enough to go by when the horses stamina kicked in. I can understand people saying Russell rode the right race even if I disagree with them but I simply cannot accept what the evidence of my eyes tells me and that is that it was a quiet ride which is the exact opposite of what the horse needs. Coming down the hill for the last time is when Russell starts to get serious with the horse. I'd have thought given he was running alongside the stone inferior Irish Cavalier that alarm bells would have been running much earlier than that. Jumping the horse off at the back had nothing to do with lack of pace and everything to do with a judgement call.
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He thought about the Lord Windermere race I bet,Eeternaloptimist you sum it up perfectly,never got stuck into the horse and all these people saying it would have finished like o'faiolins boy and smad place are simply guessing,as are we but they should have found out.
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be interesting to see Poli at Liverpool. Running apparently.
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Yesterday presumably saw the end of any pretensions held by supporters that Don Poli is top class. "He's slow' from his new trainer summed it all up.
Thinking about this horse and my reason to instigate this thread, led me to some thoughts which I shall share. This is not to gloat - strongly opposing a 9/2 shot can hardly be termed a major coup. More, I'm thinking that the incomprehensible support he received ties in with the spirit of the age. Michael Gove's famous, pre referendum quote, "we've had enough of experts" summed up what others have referred to as the"post-factual age", one where sound and fury extinguishes logical argument. Where the screaming of the media - not only social media - convinces in blind disregard of facts. A world where Brexit supporters reckon our population has 15% immigrants when it has 3%. Where they bay to "take control" yet hurl vile abuse at the judiciary when it does just that. A world where Donald Trump may become president. A world where people increasingly stick their fingers in their ears, not wanting to hear anything that ruffles their well worn prejudices. I was struck on my way to Warwick on Friday by the staggering ignorance displayed on a local radio phone-in concerning the judicial decision on Brexit procedures. Yes, those selected to appear may be those expected to provoke a reaction, but it was not the positions of those who spoke that astonished me, but the failure to be able to engage in any dialogue without resorting to random abuse of positions which those they were abusing had never even taken up. Some of those people, perhaps, backed a horse demonstrably unsuited to racing in the top class for the Gold Cup, but more astonishing was that Pa... Po... had Bryan Cooper odds on to choose him over Don Cossack, Cooper himself appeared to be dithering and Channel 4 agonised over his "nightmare decision". Many of life's decisions cannot be taken by looking at facts and often facts are unclear. But my experience of the cult of Don Poli shows me that there are times when they do stare you in the face and you can gain a distinct advantage over those who disregard them. Only which I'd been bolder. As my old trainer used to say, "You'd only have to KNOW once". |
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*Only wish I'd been bolder.
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