Cheltenham Festival
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Peace & Co
Peace & Co
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Its relevant if you think hes a bit easy on his novices and thinks a tad more than some trainers about putting a gun to their head whilst still a novice,which it appears he does.It can mean the difference between winning and placing as in some of those examples above.
Sprinter Sacre and Darlan are perfect examples of horses that have gone on to be far better than the horses they lost to as novices,My Tent or yours as well. |
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sorry forgot MTOY.
henderson wants to win at cheltenham, he isnt leaving them short i can assure you |
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You don't seem to be understanding the point Wicketd... It's not 'leaving them short'.... It's protecting them for the rest of their career. The sprinter Sacre example is surely the best one is it not?
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cheers wicketd someone gets my point jesus
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Sprinter Sacre had wind op after Supreme.
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Sprinter Sacre had wind op after Supreme.
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Well I aint so sure, and he has had some bl00dy serious horses beaten as novices...that I do know.
It does make me think twice about backing his,especially if they are fairly short prices. Anyway, that's my take on it. Only trying to help, sure people on here can make their own minds up whether its any help to them...........probably not  |
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yep, but i dont think he was doing that with vaniteux, darlan, mtoy or spirit son. all ran good races. vaniteux aside all could have won but darlan didnt jump well enough, mtoy far too keen and ruby walsh outrode them all on al ferof
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^ in response to CCM.
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Think Spirit Son would have been a serious horse as well,probable Churdle winner imo.
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I fail to see how the tent was protected in his novice campaign....
everyone wants festival winners and trainers will have them on their A game come the big day. |
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agree budd big shame that horse's aintree performance was awesome
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But they all turned out to be far better horses as seniors than the horses that beat them Wicketd.
Not talking about slightly better,massive gulf in class. |
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Well I don't think Vaniteux is or was good enough, Spirit Son clearly had plenty of issues, and you could easily argue the other two should have won, and may well have done if he had been harder on them and given them more experience for the Supreme. But that's budd's point... That day was never the end game.
You may disagree with it, and that's fair enough, but it's definitely a valid point IMO. |
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yeh it was awesome,tragic mate that was,horse could have literally been anything.
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mccoy battered darlan up the hill and did everything right on mtoy just emptied out.
henderson horses only maintain form for about 2 seasons anyway (OW aside) so you could well be right |
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Surely if Henderson doesn't want to put "the gun to their heads" as novices, then running them in the fastest, most competitive novice race all year long isn't the best idea.
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Good luck trying to force a horse to settle. You can try different things, but you cannot force a horse to settle. NJH never managed it with MTOY.
Both Zarkandar & Soldatino had 3 runs each on the flat before going hurdling btw. |
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He wouldn't have owners if he didn't though brandy. Can you imagine the likes of JP, Munir etc taking his view that it might be best to skip the Festival this year!
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Sprinter Sacre couldn't settle
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Sprinter Sacre settle through maturity, i.e a couple of seasons of racing. We're talking about a race in 10 weeks time.
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*settled
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Hurricane fly took awhile to learn to settle. MTOY never learn't.
Problem with absolute top class horses is in the earlier trials there isn't enough pace and they want to go quicker. So they end up being keen. I think Peace and Co will be pulling hard again nto and still win well. Hopefully these is enough pace in the Triumph for him to be happy enough. I'm just hoping he can gallop and jump as well as his debut and gallop to the line later this month. |
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Do a Barizan and go just 20 lengths clear and see if they can catch him.
I don't think I've ever wanted a horse to hang on so much! |
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I was on Soldatino
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Munir's battalion of novices to be kept apart
FRESH from landing their second Grade 1 since Christmas, the owners with a stunning armoury of exciting young hurdlers have made plans for their emerging stars, with JCB Triumph Hurdle clear favourite Peace And Co set for his first taste of Cheltenham this month. Simon Munir and Isaac Souede's emphatic Tolworth Hurdle winner L'Ami Serge, meanwhile, was on Sunday night clipped into as short as 4-1 favourite for the Sky Bet Supreme Novices'. L'Ami Serge will go straight to the festival, perhaps via a racecourse gallop next month, while their four Triumph Hurdle contenders, led by general 5-2 chance and Nicky Henderson-trained Peace And Co and all quoted at 12-1 or less for the juvenile crown, will get their mettle tested in separate trials. Peace And Co, who produced arguably the most impressive juvenile performance of the season when romping to a Grade 2 victory at Doncaster last month on his first start in Britain, is set for Cheltenham's Festival Trials meeting and will be kept apart from Grade 1 Chepstow winner and top-priced 8-1 Triumph chance Bristol De Mai, while Limerick winner Vercingetorix, trained by Gordon Elliott, will step up into Grade 1 juvenile company at Leopardstown. Anthony Bromley, racing manager to Munir and Souede, told the Racing Post on Sunday: "I can say, set in stone, that Peace And Co will go for the Finesse Hurdle at Cheltenham on January 24 to get a taste of the track and to see how he copes. "I have to talk to Nigel Twiston-Davies in a bit more depth but Bristol De Mai, who won the Grade 1 at Chepstow over Christmas, might go for the Chatteris Fen at Huntingdon or wait for Haydock a week later. "Top Notch, who won at Newbury, could go to Musselburgh or one of those other two races just mentioned, while Vercingetorix will go for the Grade 1 in Ireland at the end of January to see where he is." |
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Probably not relevant given the distance he was beaten but Very Intense finished 4th behind P&C lto and was well stuff again today at Kempton.
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I think you missed something sint.
Very Intense was well stuffed there, but Officer Drivel who Peace and Co beat by 55l won the race  |
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From Paul Nicholls Column - "We may be lighter than usual in the novice hurdle and juvenile division so far but we still have some cards to play there - and remember Zarkandar didn't make his debut for us until the end of February before winning the Triumph three weeks later".
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Ooh....interesting!!
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sintonian-D'OH!
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Made reference to Very Intense as he was sent off favourite.
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Can anyone tell me if anything happened to the Triumph around 2003 which would change the sort of horse winning it?
Been doing dosage profiles for past 10 winners and went all the way back to 1994 in the end. There's been a massive change since Scolardy won it in 2002 and he had a similar profile to other winners in 2000, 1998 and 1995. There's been nothing like him since |
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I know the introduction of the Fred Winter has made the triumph less of a random charge and more reliable where quality horses have won many renewals.
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That's the interesting thing - more stamina laden horses are winning it now than compared to before. The horses in 2002 etc were all far speedier types.
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Tory....just a thought,when was the new course introduced,i,e ground saved for thurs/fri,everyone says its a stiffer test,add to that watering,or a combo?
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That was my initial thought but I can't find it! I'm really hoping to find a logical explanation and that would be the best one if it ties in
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Introduced in 1967 apparently!
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cheltenhamracecoursetips.co.uk/cheltenham-new-course-guide/
1967 tory,most sites reckon the new should give an advantage to flat types,less hurdles towards end and more galloping,I can see your point.There may be one other answer thats a possible,and would affect hurdles/chases.......groundcovers if used. |
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Can you clarify what you are finding in your research Tory because I'd have thought the opposite of what you are suggesting would be happening. I remember The Triumph was always seen as a gateway race to future longer distance races and in that time frame your'e talking about I remember some stoutly bred horses running well and also winning which then went on to run well over much further. I'm thinking Commance Court and Paddy's Return off the top of my head. Given that more flat bred types have run well in the race post 2002 and which have then gone on to run well in champion hurdles and champion chases I'd have thought that more of that type are now being aimed at the race following the efforts of Well Chief, Katchit and Celestial Halo.
I'd be interested to read more of your research. |