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A massive shame. Makes the Punchestown Gold Cup lose a lot of it's interest and quality now. It's gone from being spectacular to a near non event.
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If this is the end for Don Cossack - either literally or if injury compromises future efforts - then supporters can at least be thankful that he had five almost uninterrupted seasons, through the course of which he rose to the pinnacle. Not many manage that.
My own belief is that we still hadn't really fathomed the depths of his ability; nothing had really given him much of a race over the past two seasons other than in the much discussed Ryanair and the inconclusive King George. As a true staying chaser, his runs last year at Punchestown and last month at Cheltenham were stupendous. It wouldn't be stretching a point to say he'd become as good a stayer as we've seen this century.. The regrets will be that we almost certainly won't see a meaningful decider with Cue Card and neither will The Don get the chance to repel the Mullins chosen contenders for next season's Gold Cup, nor perhaps Thistlecrack. The vibes seem a little contradictory - Elliott said he hoped to see him later next season in one quote but O'Leary's comments imply that at least a season on the sidelines beckons. We'll probably hear shortly if next season is remotely achievable. |
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It wouldn't be stretching a point to say he'd become as good a stayer as we've seen this century..
get a grip ffs |
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Your nominations, premier?
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It's all opinions cyclops but I couldn't see him putting up a performance like that of Kauto in the King George which brought him a stellar rating or a weight carrying feat like Denman's second Hennessy. He wasn't even able to prove he was the best of this less exalted generation.
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He's certainly put the best 2 performances of a staying chaser in the last 5 years and in the last 25 years there's only Kauto's `09 KG thats rated 5-6 pounds higher but if he had been around in that time KS wouldn't had won any GCs because Don would've simply outstayed him. Its a shame he doesn't receives the recognition he deserves from general public.
There's always a question mark with tendon injuries regardless how small they are at first but I tend to look positively and think that by next season GC he'll be back, already with a prep run in January or early February. Come to think about it, if his connections hadn't been so protective and sent him to Aintree like last year this might've never happened who knows. Also his trainer saying no chance going for the KG makes me think if he does indeed comes back we woulnd't have missed anything in the first part of the season anyway because he would win mickey mouse races in Ireland so hopefully he fully recovers and gets back his form by next years GC. |
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With you there, timtim, perhaps unsurprisingly.
I intentionally said "stayer", meaning in excess of 3 miles. I wouldn't claim Don Cossack would scoot around Kempton as effectively as Kauto Star but the latter's record over greater than 3 miles was two wins from 8 starts, with his best effort being a decisive win over a heart problem affected Denman in his second Gold Cup. As for next season, I think you're very optimistic; tendon always seems to mean a year off at best. |
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I'd like to see Don Cossack attempting another CGC but my head says very unlikely as horses seldom reproduce their best form post a tendon injury especially jumpers for obvious reasons. What a shame for the horse - so much potential after rotten luck last year - and all concerned. Maybe we ought to consider ourselves lucky to witness DC comprehensive win in the CGC.
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He's certainly put the best 2 performances of a staying chaser in the last 5 years
Which performances would those be timtin? |
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last year Aintree romp and this year's Gold Cup
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I wanted to give you the floor to make your case but I was fairly certain you'd cite those performances and fine ones they were to. Last year's Aintree performance was staggering but it was over a speedsters trip. Nothing staying about it. It's a flat course suited to stellar performances often by the likes of Sprinter Sacre. The Gold Cup was a good performance but what did he beat when Cue Card exited so unfortunately? Djakadam on ground not soft enough and Don Poli just ridden for a place. Both those horse were buried by Cue Card at Aintree with his cocck hanging down his leg.
We missed a race at Cheltenham which would have gone a long way to settling the issue but for me an official rating of 177 about his Gold Cup performance is about there. Could he have done more if pressed? Almost certainly but that still leaves him a good way behind the very best. |
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correct, the Melling Chase is a speedster's race but Don is in fact a stayer and I said he put the best performances of 'a staying chaser' because I wouldn't want to start comparing him to SS or MM.
The official ratings are a joke. Just in the Melling Chase, he had 1, 2, no.. 3, wait 4, no actually SIX horses with ratings ~160, beating them from 26 to 70 lengths and yet the official mark only got as high as 171 ! In every serious handicappers book that was easily an 180+ performance and it took them another 5-6 races to correct themselves and even now 177 doesn't do him justice. The official ratings are only worth as much as the individual capacity of the handicapper that assigns those ratings and they often get it wrong. They gave Cue Card an 172 rating for beating a completely out of form Silviniaco Conti by 7 lengths then raised him to 176 for beating a out of novice horse in Vautour for a head beating. Vautour who's best efforts in open company are beating Ptit Zig by 2 and Valso Lido by 6 lengths. If thats a measure of a 176 horse then Cossack should be 190+ by those same standards. But no, because Cossack wasn't surrounded by hype they're treating him very conservatively... |
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Just another point regarding handicappers. As much as I despise Timeform for what they're doing with some hype horses especially Douvan in recent times, giving him an inflated rating for beating substandard novice opposition, they are fortunately more right than wrong and I'm glad to see Cossack in the top 10-13 Chasers of all time on a 183 mark, same as Denman and Master Oats. Who knows how much bigger he would've got without the injury and if he had taken part at Aintree and Punchestown this year..
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Master Oats? Oh dear.
Backing up your point about Aintree, the RP just couldn't accept the evidence of the race, nor could the official handicapper. An RP rating of 181 meant that, firstly, the other six horses in the race ran 5,6,10,20,18 and 37 pounds below form, secondly that the winning distance of 26 lengths was reduced to 23 (on the pound per length basis they always operate on) and, finally, they made no allowance at all for the fact that Don Cossack was heavily eased on the run-in, while the second and third were ding dong all the way to the line. That performance was as good as any we've seen in recent times and, yes, had a Vautour or Douvan produced it, Arkle talk would have abounded. Having ridden him at Aintree AP McCoy had no doubts as to his quality and was adamant he would win the Gold Cup. Similarly, Don Cossack has twice put Djakadam away with ease, which no other horse has done, excepting when the latter was clearly under par (5 lengths ahead of Dynaste). Three absolutely top performances, backed up by plenty of dismissals of the second division. |
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What had happened to Don Cossack was very unfortunate, but it could have been much worse had it happened during the Gold Cup race at Punchestown - the result that befell No More Heroes could have have been replicated given the speed that horses could be travelling towards at that stage of the race.
Has any chaser with a tendon injury come back and race to its previous best form once again? If no, I think it'd be best to retire Don Cossack (DC) as he has nothing more to prove having beaten Djakadam, Road To Riches and Don Poli convincingly; DC's fall in the King George after making up ground to be level with Cue Card (CC) - the eventual winner - was inconclusive as to whether he'd have beaten CC, however, on his every run towards the line when infront after the last DC had never been beaten, hence, a mighty chance DC would have beaten CC in the King George in my opinion. |
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Similarly, Don Cossack has twice put Djakadam away with ease, which no other horse has done, excepting when the latter was clearly under par (5 lengths ahead of Dynaste). Three absolutely top performances, backed up by plenty of dismissals of the second division.
That performance in The Melling was staggering but given everything else the horse has done it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that his competitors did run below form. As for Djakadam's performance at Aintree he paid the price for trying to win the race as to some extent did Don Poli. Three out they were 15-20 lengths clear of the stragglers including Dynaste. The bottom line is that Cue Card destroyed them all and Brennan was rubbing the horses ears up the run in. Don Cossack has been a tremendous performer and at his best outstanding but he was no Kauto and arguably Denman. In my view of course. |
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Didn't Simonsig suffer a tendon injury? Made a very good fist of it today although admittedly he was a 7yo when he got injured and probably would have put that field to bed on the bridle 2 or 3 years ago.
Really hope he can make it back in time for another crack at the gold cup but you can only fear the worst when a tendon goes. |
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Yes but today on ATR Gordon Elliott said he'll do easy canters as soon as October and if all goes well they'll attempt GC. We'll see but like I said I retain all hope even though it could be career ending in most cases.
@EO Kauto is also no Cossack who's developed into a outstanding stayer in these last few years, quite 2 different horses but in terms of ability over 3m+ I know who I'd have my money on. |
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I knew you'd see sense eventually. Being a stone clear does concentrate the mind and after all Don did beat a horse not as suited to the ground as last year and another ridden like the race was over 5 miles. Still a Gold Cup is a Gold Cup. You can't take it away from The Don or indeed Cool Ground.
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I see what you've done there
but Kauto only once in his career put a performance ~8 pounds better than Don and that was in the 2009 KG. The rest they have basically ran to the same ratings and beyond 3 miles there's only one winner in my mind and that is categorically The Don. |
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timtim, didn't catch the Elliott interview but sounds more encouraging. Did he say much else?
As you said, with the KG not part of the plan, anyway, a Spring campaign would be fine. Supporters can only hope its not the end. |
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not much, just that they'll know more in October how he's going with the recovery and if they're pleased then its go ahead for the GC.
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timtin
Given your comments about pounds and ratings it confuses me somewhat you taking exception to the mark he's been given. The bottom line is he's racing in a slightly higher than average era for staying chasers and as top dog his rating of 177 is fully warranted. However, Kauto regularly exceeded that rating and as the yanks say that's all she wrote. Don is good but Kauto was just different class. Maybe Don could have stepped up and given Kauto a race but we'll never know. What we do know is he'll be virtually forgotten in ten years time but Kauto will be remembered for decades. |
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@EO, I hope you're not confusing the official mark(attached to the horse) to the performance individual race ratings. I remember Matt Champan also had a hard time understanding the difference and BHA's Paul Smith was the one doing the explanation :)
In any case I already argued the major flaw of the official rating for Don Cossack which is simple and can be seen on how long it took them(5-6 races) to get near his real current rating, even though Don put up couple of 180+ performances along the way starting with Aintree last season. |
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Kauto may be a popular horse but he got beat alot of times and Don in the last 2 seasons only once got beat. I don't see much difference in their class over 3m+ and like I said over the GC trip I'd have my house on Don every single time.
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He did get beat that's true. Don has been an admirably consistent horse but you do have to question what he's beating. There's no Denman, Imperial Commander etc and the form of the Gold Cup is looking a bit leaky. That was a golden age. At a push this may be a bronze one. Shame we didn't get to see him and Coneygree going at it but then maybe the ground would have been more in favour of Don and he could have won anyway.
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The best and most competitive race that Don Cossack ran in was the King George last year when he fell when upside Cue Card and challenging. He probably would have won had he stayed up because he would have gone past Cue Card - the eventual winner - and challenging Vautour coming to and/or after the last - Don Cossack had never been beaten when infront after the last. In the Gold Cup (Cheltenham and Punchestown) Don Cossack beat Djakadam and RTR comprehensively.
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I don't remember Imperial Commander being a world beater, certainly not in the class of Cue Card for instance. Denman was a bit of a freak but it only lasted up to his injury when he beat the crap out of KS, after which it took him another full season to come back somewhat to his best to win the Hennessy under top weight, which again took something out of him and never regained his pre-injury form.
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Speaking of flawed official ratings, I like how 7-8 years ago the handicapper hyped anything that had 4 legs and raced against Kauto, spiking ratings 10-15 lbs up or down, nowadays they rarely exceed 7 pounds when putting a horse up, normally 4-5 pounds, presumably the damage control is cleaner if they get something wrong which probably happened alot in those days. That handicapper either got fired or has learned his lessons by now
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On his day Imperial Commander was very special. He just wasn't that consistent. Cue Card has been admirably good but the Gold Cup form has taken a dig following Aintree and now Punchestown.
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Depends how you interpret it.
Carlingford Lough and Irish Cavalier could be viewed as underpinning it. |
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According to Michael O'Leary in today's Times, Don Cossack is unlikely to race again.
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That's a great shame. If so, Happy Retirement Don Cossack!
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cyclops • April 29, 2016 9:53 AM BST
Depends how you interpret it. Carlingford Lough and Irish Cavalier could be viewed as underpinning it.....absolutely.///After Cheltenham they are knackered imo you cant trust Punchy form. |
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Can't say bad things about Punchy form on this thread Howdi.
Also Don Cossack over Kauto Star? I'm not sure if I've just read that correctly? Don Cossack? Over Kauto? Now I think I have read everything. |
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Don't think anyone's said that wellchief.
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I don't see much difference in their class over 3m+ and like I said over the GC trip I'd have my house on Don every single time.
timtin is like St Peter. Not once did he deny Kauto. Not twice but three times. |
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did you just compared Kauto with Jesus ?
I think you're proving my point reg. his fans who think he was unbeatable, he wasn't, he got beat lots of times and Denman at his best kicked his ass... Happy Easter! |
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Not at all. I'm comparing you with St Peter.
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It's a long time til jumping takes centre stage again so I thought I'd check out whether my assertion that Don Cossack was as good a stayer as we've seen this century stood up.
There have been 40 performances this century that have been rated 175 and more by the Racing Post (I've included the Betfair Chase when it was only 2m7f and the odd other one just short of 24f). It's possible I've missed the odd one. 191 Kauto Star 185 Kauto Star 184 Kauto Star, Denman 183 Denman (Twice) 182 Kauto Star, Don Cossack, Imperial Commander 181 Kauto Star, Don Cossack, Long Run (3 times) 180 Kauto Star, Denman, Don Cossack, Cue Card (3 times), Long Run 179 Bob's Worth 178 Kauto Star, Denman, Don Cossack (Twice), Cue Card, Best Mate, Coneygree, First Gold 177 Imperial Commander, Kicking King (3 times) 176 Kauto Star, Denman, Cue Card, Best Mate 175 Kauto Star, Coneygree So the only horses to appear more than twice are: Kauto Star 9 Don Cossack 5 Cue Card 5 Denman 5 Long Run 3 Kicking King 3 So I think Don Cossack has very much earned his place at the top table. |