r u stupid danders? he won a gold cup of course he stays! he out stayed denman and he is being tipped for the grand national for years!

I can argue because the time was faster then kauto win in 2009 and denman in 2008! yes it was officially good on GC day 2010 but i suspect it was more good to soft!

you are a fool

I am of course joking, btw

dananders Joined: 14 Jan 09
Replies: 5194 30 Sep 10 19:48 
part from the betfair last year . but ic isnt a true stayer of a true run 3miles 2f . the gold cup last year they dawdled from start to finish


Nurse

Also ICs owner, no less, has himself confirmed on this very forum that IC will run in the KG and very eloquently explained his previous under-par runs

what are the reasons? horse is terrible when not having alot of time inbetween its races?

Dananders - times of the last four Gold Cups all run on good to soft ground. Can you explain to me how the 2010 time was achieved  after walking for 2 miles ?

2007    Kauto Star 6m 40.5s
2008    Denman 6m 47.8s
2009    Kauto Star 6m 44.9s
2010    Imperial Commander 6m 43.9s

it is clear from the last 10 or so replies that dananders has been correctly pigeon holed in the "ignore everything this clown post" box.  You should hook up with claudia dananders and talk some real horses about washingmachine irvine for this years champ hurdle, he finished 4th in a derby u know...

fair play dananders for admiting it

i agree dan has talked rubbish, but forget about the over all times because they do not tell the story.  this years gold was not run at a fast pace end of. it wasn't a walk like dan says but it was hardly break neck.  just watch the race and see

Any way back to the title of the thread, anyway they jock off SWC??

An extra stone on its back b4 it starts

Brandyontherocks - I agree the time of any race is not an absolute guide, but the Gold Cup is unique as it has a defined standard in terms of the level of performance required to win. The times over the last 50 years are remarkably consistent when grouped by official going.

This could be a statistical quirk, or it could be because official good to soft is becoming increasingly softer, It would also have to apply too all types of ground from Good/Firm to Heavy. 

Having seen the last 25 renewals I would be confident that isn't the case indeed since the new drainage the ground will never be as heavy as it was. The fences are smaller and thinner, allowing recovery from mistakes which would have finished you race in former years, and the weights have been reduced by 4lbs.

Still the times remain in a very tightly knit range.

It also doesn't appear to matter how fast or slowly they go - off a fast pace the horses appear to fade, of a slow pace they quicken or hold their speed. The overall times irrespective of pace remain in the same closely matched grouping.

Sectional times at Cheltenham are difficult to achieve over the 50 year period, but what can be deciphered is first and second circuit times. This years race was run at a steady enough gallop on the first circuit, the second circuit was absolutely brutal and 19 seconds quicker than the first. That showed in how the field spread quickly as the pace was injected. The time as you can see fits within a 7 second range, that range remains the same on GS going over the last 25 renewals.

That would indicate that in order to win a Gold Cup there is a clearly defined standard you have to reach, and that the standard required takes the best horses to the limits of their abilities, (given there is no  evidence any one winner has been able to signnifcantly out perform any other)

It would also indicate that we are not in a golded age of chasers, because non of the current crop have been able to beat the standard of the last 50 years despite easier fences, better ground and 4lbs less in weight.

Quvega - that is my conclusion. The heavy boned chaser of yesterday seems as efficient as the new slimline model when facing the ultimate test. It is inevitable the breed will get lighter  still as the flat boys are obsessed with speed and the sires they are producing have less and less substance. I still preferred the old fashioned chasers though !

If I am right the times will start to decline over the next 10 years or so - at the moment I think the balance of flat speed vs stamina is in eequilibrium hence the statistical consistency of times. However with the ever increasing emphasis on speed within the flat sector the stamina quota must eventually start to diminish and impact on GC performances.

Me too - but don't know how to stop it. Everytime I go to the sales it becomes more and more difficult to find the right model.

lads, ive been reading this thread and it comes accross that you are both very intelligent people. please help me with my efforts to convince this person in the "hughes and abdulla" thread on the horseracing forum

Bobby - fewer and fewer jodami's around now. What a specimen he was. Btw, whilst i accept (and have always thought) there is no reason to believe we are in a golden age in terms of the raw materials (the horses) i think jumping is in a golden age for all sorts of other reasons. Anyway, thats not my point, and i dont know why i said it (!), but what i was trying to say is that even though the times are fairly consistent (or very consistent even), i believe there are good, average and bad renewals.

the other lad is giving out about the fact that jockeys are not trying to win for him, theyre trying to win for connections which is true but doesit matter, if theyre trying to win a race, it suits everyone..... including him

Restraining order Bobby , you get a bit unruly?

Hi RCarver - I agree there are bound to be variations in the overall quality of all races, but it seems the winners performance is consistently in the same band. What complicates the issue is the handicapper has lost the plot. Consider Best Mate and Kauto Star, excluding Best Mates win in 2002 there is less than 5 seconds between their remaining four winning times (Best Mate carried 12 stone when recording the best of the 4 times in 2003.

Best Mate saw off the likes of Truckers Tavern, Commanche Court, Malborough, First Gold, Beef or Salmon, Sir Rembrandt and Keen Leader in his two victories. Kauto competed against the likes of Denman, Exotic Dancer, Neptune Collonges, My Will, The Listener and Monkerhostin.

In the opinion of the handicapper Kauto is 28lbs superior to Best Mate - and folk law on this forum is that Best Mate won three poor Gold Cups.

Not sure I can see much difference either in the quality of opposition, or the level of the performances, especially a Denman was far from his best when beaten in 2009.

I should be clear that I think Kauto is absolutely exceptional - but he is exceptional for the brilliant consistency with which he produces championship standard performances, not because his championship performances are outstandingly better than the performances of past champions.