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Latalomne 16 Apr 13 11:06
Isn't Lurka's point that there are occasions where the fastest pictures available to the majority are insufficient to allow bets to be cancelled at the conclusion of the point? That stops me from leaving money in match markets between points. I don't think the suggestion is people are circumventing the delay. indeed lurka's point is not that people are beating the delay, but that it's not sufficient. but the truth is that it is sufficient for someone or some group of people. and if you're not in the business of competing to be first, it's not important. if you are then it's your business to understand whether it is or not. |
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So it would be better there was no delay then at all?
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that's my opinion jimmy.
i'm not going to retype my arguments for that again, but i've posted it before. |
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That's the crux of Lurka's point: either have no delay or make it long enough for [b]the majority[/b] to be able to cancel their bets if they wish.
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Shanghai 5 years ago on the Sky feed a couple were berrating on air the lack of early doors liquidity (a thought I was having too myself, but obviously more agitating for them as they were 7-8 seconds in front of the masses and I).
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the delay disadvantages every price taker to the benefit of the price makers.
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the problem latalomne, is that you must fairly define what the majority is.
and as i've just said, the longer the delay the better it is for those at the front of the queue and the worse it is for price takers. |
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It's different nowadays as they used to steam money in either way the point was won, but now you can tell 5 seconds quicker as the chumps who have a wall either side of their set price take away the one which becomes good value and leave up the one which comes up even worse value.
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My personal feeling is that, given the fact that BF is almost certainly milking 60% from the people with this huge advantage, there's no short-term reason for them to do so - even if it's to the detriment of their product in the long-term.
DStyle - BF is making pictures available for a lot of sports nowadays. IMHO, if you are going to provide a delay (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't), it seems fair that BF should ensure that said delay tallies appropriately with those pictures. |
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What's the point in the delay if it doesn't tally.
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i couldn't agree more.
providing the enetpulse score feed or the best live feeds and managing delays from that would be the best thing betfair could do to improve liquidity across the board. BUT in the absence of their doing that, it becomes debatable at what point to decide what the delay should be. The other solution would be to give people visibility of pending bets (i.e. those in the 5 second queue) that way you could, if you were worried about being hoovered, see the dyson from a distance and dodge it, if you'll pardon my language. |
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RMB © 16 Apr 13 11:26
It's different nowadays as they used to steam money in either way the point was won, but now you can tell 5 seconds quicker as the chumps who have a wall either side of their set price take away the one which becomes good value and leave up the one which comes up even worse value. and they do that to take advantage of price takers and the delay. i'll get matched at the **** out of date price if i submit a bet which hits the market when they've taken their price down but not had time to put the new one up. |
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and the longer the delay the more chance of that happening
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Yup. It's not nice. They're ****** price takers in real time but it's the gift that keeps giving.
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of course there's a balance of arguments, and no doubt, each interested party will argue their case.
it's interesting reading California here we come's posts. because to me, he's saying, he's either cleaning up being first, or he's behind and not having masses of joy. and ultimately the competition for being first in the queue is presumably a big price for the winner but peanuts for being runner up. looking at betfair's interest, i wouldn't surprise me, if as the OP suggests, that people or group of people, are paying betfair 60% for the privilege. |
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*big prize for the winner
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if you look at the 3.65 site scoreboard (enetpulse) that seems to be 2 secs ahead of these slow pics
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They are effectively betting in real time. It just pains me to see price takers in mid-point as it's just donating money away. I'm personally happy with the delay as I'll only bet immediately post point and in between games. There's of course a small buffer where a retirement could screw me, but surely without any delay that buffer would increase (or am I being tired/dense?).
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if you cancel your bets when you see the money disappear you can avoid being hoovered but you need to use trading software for this
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Exactly lurka, it's a wonderful real time score update for those using their noggin, but it's a complete trap to hoover money in real time against the price takers who can't resist punting just before a point is about to be played, or god forbid, during it.
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i'm happy to go mid point if i know i'm still getting value if the point goes against me.
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Fair enough. I'd need more details to understand the logic behind that (I'm not doubting there isn't, in fact I'm all but assured there is).
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Hanescu 40*-0 4-4 1.45 to lay.
to run through to the end of set. |
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End of the game you mean? Got you.
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I do that too. My god forbid comment was aimed at the majority of points which involve far bigger swings. Wasn't it Troy who once boasted of a £15k lay at 1.4 when A Rod saved a MP vs Johansson.
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not necessarily even end of game.
"unimportant" points you could say. but no, never a penny on "important points" |
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i have seen matches start for a game or two before the market has turned in-play, ie real time with no delay. Obviously a mistake by BF to allow it. If there was no delay then at a retirement the fastest guy would hoover everything down to 1.01 with no chance to cancel and make huge money. That already happens every match at match point but the market should suspend before there is even a chance to do that, ie less than 5 secs after MP and especially retirements. when the match is over, no more bets should be matched and BF should really reverse any bets at MP/retirement which defeat this.
The coursiders here are not beating the 5 sec delay really. If you watch the market or use 3.65 scoreboard you can tell who has won the point before the new price settles and cancel your bets. Normally you can do this from the standard live feed too but not in this tournament (or any of the masters). So, in short, if you are using the standard video feed to trade point to point you are going to get hoovered. You need to adapt and use 3.65 and watch the market as opposed to the video. Probably need to alter your trading strategy too for these events. Trading point to point is more difficult, so perhaps trade longer term. But it appears that there is a group of people manipulating the speed of the feeds at these events and that is something that BF or the ATP should look into. If i were one of the people paying £700 a month for Perform fast pics I wouldn't be a happy camper but don't feel sorry at all for them, take your medicine! |
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i have seen matches start for a game or two before the market has turned in-play, ie real time with no delay. Obviously a mistake by BF to allow it. If there was no delay then at a retirement the fastest guy would hoover everything down to 1.01 with no chance to cancel and make huge money. That already happens every match at match point but the market should suspend before there is even a chance to do that, ie less than 5 secs after MP and especially retirements. when the match is over, no more bets should be matched and BF should really reverse any bets at MP/retirement which defeat this.
given that betfair now make a very pretty 60% shaped penny out the hooverers can you really see them bringing an end to this revenue stream. |
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i can if overall liquidity is down so much that they make less money, but not really otherwise. No idea if that is the case here though
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There was a lot less awareness back in the day, and no internet streams then. You'd have high rollers (who liked to donate money away) spunking £10k+ bets onto the market watching Eurosport.
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You get that now too.
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Of course, but to my mind, it's far less frequent.
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It should be clear to BF which account(s) are doing this at these events, but it's been going on for a while now and they haven't stopped them, so you'd have to assume that they are not at a loss because of it
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Why would BF stop them? Are they doing anything illegal?
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They're not doing anything wrong lurka.
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Short-term, it suits them massively! How many times would money need to be churned over to guarantee them a 60% take-out under the original commission structure? Given that a few people do withdraw, they might never actually expect to see as much as 60% of every £ deposited.
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i'm not saying it's illegal, I assume it's not but there may be different laws in certain countries. Whether it is illegal or not is irrelevant - it is open to BF to suspend any account they want and if that account is causing lower liquidity/commissions overall then that is the only reason they would. The fact that they haven't despite it happening for quite a while now indicates that they not at a loss because of it
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Why would BF suspend any accounts which are legally making them money?
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The premium charge was bought in to take 60% of these chumps money along with the horse racing crew and no doubt the old La Liga crew. It's been going on since the beginning of time, it just took a while for BF to realise how they were going to get their lion share.
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Do we know these chumps are paying PC?
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