New Leader, new what?

No one can , its simple economics , not that any of the cabinet would know anything about economics , the outgoings exceed the incomings and it is only going one way .

Agreed. Someone needs the balls to run the country within its means -- without borrowing £150 billion a year!

all the candidates are neo liberals , all sing from the same hymn sheet. This is why corbyn was banned for labour, he sang from a different hymn sheet. You won't get any change from these other new labour people. Burnham ? for gods sake the man is a complete drip, same goes for miliband. Streeting is more right wing than thatcher.

What is the tangible difference between the current position and the single market? (Aside from, I'm assuming, handing over more cash)

There are some things that have no solution , this country will just get poorer and poorer .

customs paperwork

that would be customs paperwork demanded by the EU. I assume that is the same for the US, China, Canada et al.

so no tangible difference with that, anything else ?

no snc, that comes from not being in the customs union.

the sm offers free movement of goods, capital, people and services. not being in it results in non tariff barriers, a concept that some posters on here claim doesnt exist.

Yeah British folk with products they sold in EU with
no paperwork, can now just send it to EU or USA or China or Australia with paperwork
and vastly higher delivery costs.

Almost as if some folk simply don't care they've gone bust.

here is an example snc - some people on here said we had nothing to fear from a trade deal with the usa which would have resulted in us importing american chickens treated in a way which we didnt approve of as the imported chooks would be clearly labelled. unfortunately the usa regards such labelling as an unjustified trade barrier so such labels were a big no no from them for any trade deal to be struck. so we have a non tariff barrier in the form of a regulation (no chlorinated chicken) and a country on the other side which even regards labelling informing consumers about the standards chickens are treated as a barrier.

technical regulations, conformity assessment procedures - these types of things add significant costs.

So Burnham would first of all have to resign as Manchester mayor, fight a currently non existent by election which he will be by no means certain to win, be nominated to stand if Starmer then resigns and win the vote even though he has been abysmal twice in the past in Labour leadership elections? His price on here is totally unrealistic.

Where would we be without this level of insight.

Where would we be without this level of insight

Where would we be without this level of insight.

Stuck with our head up some right wing nutjob's bottom like you?

I'm not going to waste the whole morning listing out the Labour failures. I don't want RSI. Wasn't practically the first thing they opted to do was to remove the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. That was never mentioned in the manifesto or pre election campaigning. And this is a 'right-wing media invention' :)

The ticket was 'smash the gangs'. Erm, they remain fully unsmashed :)

One out, one hundred in :)

Calling the country far right fascists after little girls were slaughtered in a dance class.

I suppose getting booted out of Wales for the first time in over a century is another 'right-wing media invention' :)

Obviously it was quite clear that what was going to happen on Thursday would lead to liberalists losing the plot, I never expected it to be this enjoyable.

We must never lose sight of the fact that the adults are finally back in the room.

Cider, everyone gets that Labour under Starmer has been a disaster.

But Reform & Farage would be an even bigger act of self-harm than Brexit.

Liebor are now running a scorched earth policy, they know they are finished, the next government will have an impossible job.

Cider, everyone gets that Labour under Starmer has been a disaster.


Did you read what pineapple posted ?

May 12, 2026 -- 9:07AM, dpm wrote:

Liebor are now running a scorched earth policy, they know they are finished, the next government will have an impossible job.

show some evidence for that please

Very few people expected Labour to have a magic wand. But they didn't expect them to have a can of petrol, throwing it on the fire, and make everything worse.

They didn't expect the leader to be a bumbling idiot, who just about copes with reading out speeches written by other people.

The welfare bill is ridiculous. What do they do about it? Give away even more money to the feckless. At the same time, punishing pensioners, as I already outlined.

People can try to blame everything and anything. They can blame Tories, Farage, Brexit, Trump, the 'far right', Jews. It doesn't matter, the voting public know it's on starmer and the lamentable labour party.

PP you need to get out more.

How's about you don't run away, answer, and then I'll take the dog for a walk.

legal and not so legal migration are both down but you wouldnt know it from our press or people on here. welfare spending as a percentage of gdp isnt outside of the norm over the last three decades.

imo, it's already too late p or p, the public hoped labour would be better but they havent been so labour cop for all the built up resentment. there is a tremendous feeling that you do the right thing but get nowhere whilst there are plenty of people gaming the system. even seemingly little things like people getting away with shop-lifting and non-payment of tube fares have a corrosive effect on the public's perception of how unjust society is.

rayner's self inflicted housing problems resulted in the public, quite a lot of whom thought she was one of them, seeing her as just another self-interested politician. it all adds to the sense of rot.

the public dont want boring managerialism, they they think we need a new approach. plenty say they wont go back to the tories or labour, they are both fighting extinction.

personally i blame the public for refusing to accept that all policies have trade offs, its no wonder so many politicians offer simplistic solutions - telling the truth would not get them many votes.

I don't agree with a lot of that, but I think - basically - a lot of the problems lie at Starmer's door rather than Labour's. As you've said, immigration is down on what they inherited, though obviouly in a right-wing media (both kinds) environment you'll never see that acknowledged. But they've got ministers who have quietly gone about their business and done their jobs. The issue is in the big picture and selling that to people. Starmer is good at a lot of things but he simply hasn't got the charisma to be front and centre. He's no Barnum. And you need a bit of that in this day and age.

Fancy having to leave No 10 and be confronted by that pack of wolves! Cabinet members need a thick skin and have a lot of responsibility but none of that can compare to having to get past that bunch of rude and nasty people who represent our media. I am not a Labour supporter but I am ashamed to see this sort of thing going on. Not in my name.

Migration statistics
Research Briefing
Published Monday, 01 December, 2025

How stupid do you have to be to believe that as immigration is down compared to what the state and the Tories did in 2020-2022, using lockdowns as cover is acceptable.

Also don't need to be a data scientist to identify where the Blair and new labour project started, and continued by the uni party subsequently.

It needs to go back to where it was before the mass immigration project started, as a minimum.

Shows a graph showing stark downward trend. Argues that it DOESN'T show immigration came down under Labour.



Orwell would be amazed at the chutzpah.

I'm not arguing it hasn't come down since Labour took office most recently.

I am arguing that using 2020-2022 as the benchmark is palpably absurd and ridiculous. But not unexpected.

The literal point of Brexit was that it's now in our absolute gift to issue as few or as many visas as we want. No longer the excuse of open borders with the EU. But the politicians have deliberately done the opposite of what has been voted consistently for, for more than a decade. And ramped it up much higher than when we supposedly didn't have any control.

No wonder we now go through prime ministers like toiler paper. Why are they so wedded to mass immigration that they'd rather lose their jobs, and be utterly humiliated, than do what the majority of the country are demanding (that is rhetorical).

They made so much noise about the Tories

Again though. Chart literally showing immigration dropping quickly and yet they still say Labour are "wedded to mass immigration". Just like trained seals now. Just taught to clap and bark on command and ignore any and all evidence.

ONS

Long-term immigration

The provisional estimate for total long-term immigration for the most recent period is 898,000, a decrease of 401,000 from the updated YE June 2024 estimate of 1,299,000. This continues a downward trend from the peak of 1,469,000 in YE March 2023. Most people arriving to the UK in YE June 2025 were non-EU+ nationals, estimated at 670,000, a decline from 1,063,000 in YE June 2024. This decline is primarily attributed to fewer people arriving on work and study dependant visas, where we have seen a drop of approximately 70%.

Are you able to comprehend these numbers?

Are you trying to claim that 898,000 in a year isn't mass immigration?

Do you realise that it being lower than 2023 doesn't mean it's still not mass immigration? It's just slightly lower than the figures that ended the Tories.

You think they're just getting it down to zero in a year? You think Bangkok Nige would manage that?

B R A I N W A S H E D

by yootube, remarkable, Iranian ministry for disinformation stuff.

Most people arriving to the UK in YE June 2025 were non-EU+ nationals, estimated at 670,000

Bizarrely they only appear to give an estimate for Starmer's first year, 670,000. God knows why.

Not literally zero. As I outlined however, since we left the EU it's completely in the government's gift how many visas they issue. It's not something that needs to be gradual.

RENT BOYZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Pointless arguing with brainwashed idiots, Cider. Just enjoy their utter dismay.
They were happily dishing it out only a couple of years ago

It's delightful all right saddo!

Obviously there are other, multiple things on the periphery. But if any party did what the majority wanted, and attacked immigration (legal and illegal) with the save verve as they did people sharing their opinions on social media, it would go a long way to solidifying the position of any government.

So why don't they do it ?

damn, you lads would be amusing if you weren't such try-hards

It shows why left/right is obsolete. As stopping mass immigration is easily argued as a left wing policy.

I'm laughing at Labour and idiots who support them, suck it up.

I've been watching sky news for the first time in years, since Thursday night. Quite the thing. No acknowledgment of or representative for by far the biggest political force in the country right now. I think 19 guests have been Labour supporters, and 1 wet Tory grandee. I didn't think ofcom allowed that level of bias.

by far the biggest political force in the country right now

No Labour, again, on sky, how surprising

It's a bit like eating a big cream cake, hugely enjoyable, you don't want it to end, but there's an underlying, ever so slight tinge of guilt :)

They used to love banging on about cake

hehe indeed :)

Nah, it was the swivel eyes who converted their hero's demise
to just eating cake

How delicious that they are so B R A I N W A S H E D
that they can't see it, even now.

the next Labour supporter off the rank wants Clive Lewis, and thinks Mahmood is extreme

the next Labour supporter off the rank claims that Reform represent an anti democratic threat

the kind of twisted logic it takes, party wins national elections is a democratic threat

completely unchallenged by the presenters. obviously

100 now back starmer to stay in.  84 want out.

Coates says one in one out is not good odds for starmer

Arguably a clean sweep. What about Jess a paragon of virtue or West who is conspicuously silent today. I would choose David he is the best a visionary and world leader.

Starmer actually has a decent point although i doubt he realises it.

Labour seem to see the situation like a football manager who you can punish for poor results and replacements are ten a penny and you get a bounce because you were ruthless with the last manager so theres more motivation when you bring the next one in.

But they arent following Labours process. Theyre resigning left right and centre when the simple fact is they havent found enough people to suggest someone better

So how can you have a King's Speech setting out the Government plans for the next year or more. Unless the leadership is resolved overnight, what ever the King reads out is likely to be chip paper within a few days.

That would be bad but the alternative could be worse. The torys got rid of boris without a plan and then Truss happened. This time could be much much worse. Except Labour quite sensibly make it harder for their MPs to force a PM out without a plan. Until theres a better option, hes their least worst option.

Think you nailed that yourself 10.28^

Easy to see now why the C P S has been in disarray for years and the criminal justice system is a joke after this tool was at the tiller for years, groomers, rap1sts and peados given free passes and access all areas ,thieves burglars and muggers given assurances all crimes under £200 will be ignored, security guards who cant stop crimes or get sacked for doing so,the Institutions infected with Starners cronies, people are waking up finally.

The level of economic illiteracy when 'Truss happened' is off the scale. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of people actually understood what happened. It just suited both sides of the uni party to blame Truss for everything, very convenient. She's just defeated Sunak and the Tory wets couldn't wait to get their man in position, even though he was defeated in the election. Ignoring election results when they don't go your way, it's getting pretty habitual from the establishment.

100% KK and Truss made mistakes, but it wasn't in their prescription or diagnosis. The timing was off, and they did not prepare for the inevitable dirty tricks that would come their way, especially form the bank of england. They also couldn't just promise to cut spending, but exactly lay out what they would be cutting. As they didn't, they were vulnerable to that oxymoron accusation 'unfunded tax cuts'. Yet another example of economic illiteracy, anyone trotting out that phrase to make an argument.

I didnt have an issue with Truss but something definitely happened. A generous interpretation is that the torys did not select Truss because she was a better option than boris, they selected her because they couldnt think of anything else to do and she was doomed before she opened her mouth. Labours policy seems more sensible on the face of it. Under that policy MPs would have needed to back Truss OVER boris (not after he was toast), which would have given her a better start

Personally I think it's close to impossible for anyone without a general election mandate. But there were dozens of Tory MPs who were nominally Tory only to get a seat. They genuinely preferred a Labour government than Truss. Truss is similar to Starmer in that she is very awkward and not an inspirational leader to put it mildly. I don't think she had the capability to be a great PM, but was a superior choice to Sunak.

It's still immensely difficult to believe that the Tory party did not overwhelmingly support a very modest tax cutting agenda. And very telling, obviously. The Truss/KK team misjudged that too, I bet they couldn't believe the level of kickback from their own party for trying to do what should be in the political dna of all of them.

yeah, but pretty sure it wasn't the parties but it was the markets that did for Kwarteng's and Truss's vision of public finance. He announced his budget (£50million of unfunded tax cuts, plans to further increase borrowing yet again)  and the markets just sh@t themselves. The value of the pound crashed and the BoE had to step into the bond market after foreign investors were getting the hell out of dodge.

It was only after the markets lost any confidence and they had to backtrack on everything that the MP's followed suit. The Daiuly Star lettuce didn't appear till over a month after she came to office and by that time she was a national joke.



I know people like to re-write history after a bit of time has passed but let's make sure we don't ignore the catastrophe of that budget and how it was her and Kwarteng's own decisions that were pivotal in her downfall, not some shady conspiracy by THEM.

You actually don't have any idea. Is that wilful ignorance, or you genuinely don't know what happened to governments globally around that time? Have you forgotten that everyone in the UK was demanding a bailout for the huge increases in the cost of domestic energy entering into the winter of 2022? And that was a result of war?

I'm willing to put a fait bit of money on the fact that you don't blame Starmer for the recent hikes in the cost of petrol and diesel at the pumps.

I know there was stuff going on. I was there. There's always stuff going on. But simply killing the top rate of tax, so only helping the richest while piling debt on to everyone else was what spooked the markets.



You can cry and wave your little flag all you like, but unfortunately a lot of us simply remember what happened. He did his budget and then the pound crashed bigly and the markets spooked, foreign investors were bailing so much the BoE had to step in.

Yes, you are in the 95% of people who don't understand, and believe the simple lines/lies you're fed. That's why you don't understand that the Fed announced that they were hiking interest rates in the US for the first time in nearly 20 years, and there was a sudden flight to the dollar. Of that Andrew Baily decided to dump UK gilts on the market the day before the mini budget, and told the market in advance. Of course he has been buying them back recently, I wonder why.

Sell low, buy high. I suppose that's why Gordy is back on the scene.

I actually still have a copy

'subject to economic market conditions being appropriate'

you couldn't make it up. the least appropriate time on record. nakedly political from the 'independent' BoE. Costing the UK taxpayer £billions. Naturally.

Personally I think it's close to impossible for anyone without a general election mandate.

Its even more difficult for Labour given their identity crisis. If Streeting beat Starmer in a straight battle that would be one thing, but if Starmer resigns and Streeting beats Rayner, the left side of the party could do a Sunak and tank him, their party and the country in one humungous hissy fit. You know those times that it became obvious in hindsight to buy gold, this could be one of those times

I recall when it was Corbyn scraping around for plp noms and the argument was basically they needed someone from the 'left' to make it a 'balanced' competition. iirc he only had to get to 40ish. The rest of course is history.

There are very few circumstances that Streeting wins a vote with what remains of the labour membership. Only if he is up against similar 'moderates'.

May 13, 2026 -- 10:51AM, Cider wrote:

Yes, you are in the 95% of people who don't understand, and believe the simple lines/lies you're fed. That's why you don't understand that the Fed announced that they were hiking interest rates in the US for the first time in nearly 20 years, and there was a sudden flight to the dollar. Of that Andrew Baily decided to dump UK gilts on the market the day before the mini budget, and told the market in advance. Of course he has been buying them back recently, I wonder why.

yeah, just me, the BoE, the bond markets, investors...

The BoE yes. The 'bond' markets, ig you mean gilts then yes, much higher in Labour's tenure. Not quite clear what you mean by 'investors', too generic.

Here's the uk 10y gilt yield chart since 2021.

your chart at 12:35 shows just how great johnsons brexit deal has been for britain

Or the unwinding of QE around the world.

Well done on joining pineapple in the 95% club :)

The arguments that seem so logical in echo chambers don't stand
up to reality.

UK is uniquely disadvantaged by the Iran war, think brexit

That starmer may be kicked out, alongside reeves, is
causing interest rates to spike even higher,

But, that's markets for you.

Starmer should just say if you want a leadership contest , i will call a general election now , do you still want a leadership challenge ?

They can then call a vote of no confidence before he dissolves
parliament, remove him, and elect another leader by
another vote of confidence in another mp.

Would be quite a constitutional crisis if he tried that
and parliament, via its Labour majority, attempted
to stop him.

Really would be popcorn time.

The pm has power to call election at any time.

John Major introduced legislation in 1993,that he feared would
lose, so tagged on a confidence clause that if it failed he would
trigger an election,it then passed.

Under the coalition between cameron/ clegg there was
an act of Parliament that took away the power to trigger
an election, but that has since been restored to PM

sage that is the point it has been chip paper since two Tier took control.

I'm favouring windmill Ed now can you back him NR no bet?