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General election betting

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By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 12:02
Thank Meadow,

http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Final-GMB-GE2017-V-Tables-020617TOCH-1c1d0h3-microage.pdf

So in this case on page 5 they have 1049 people likely to vote.

577 males and 472 females. This adds up to 1049 so I see how you can weight the votes to get more females than males to represent the actual likely demographics of voters.

What I dont understand is the unweighted total for leave/remain being 363/563. This only adds up to 926 in the sample. Where are the other 123 people from the unweighted total sample?

How do you weight 2 samples of different sizes? The weighted total is 1066 but the sum of weighted totals for leave/remain is 919.

I am new to this and don't understand why they are not set to the same weighted total sample sizes and how the weighting are merged to get the overall polling result.

Any explanation will be helpful for this specific poll.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 12:05
What I dont understand is the unweighted total for leave/remain being 363/563. This only adds up to 926 in the sample. Where are the other 123 people from the unweighted total sample?

What makes you think the 123 people voted in the EU referendum?
By:
thegiggilo
When: 06 Jun 17 12:07
He wasn't using political allegiance he was using canvassing returbs which were completely accurate,nothing like the polls they were clueless,i've been a labour voter all my life bar green in council elections and liberal tactical vote
and have never bacled labour.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 12:08
Not saying anyone in particular, just a general comment.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 12:10
So why dont they have a weighted total to 1066?

Why are the weighted totals after the adjustment lower and how do you then merge that weighting with the other data?

What are the actual calculations from the raw data to total weighted results when the weighted totals are different?
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 12:14
If they weight the EU vote and only 926 of the 1066 voted in the referendum why would they (or how can they) weight the folks who didn't vote in it?
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 12:41
So you are saying they did not vote in the referendum?

We are supposed to take a poll seriously that suggestions 12% of people who intend to vote in this election did not vote in the referendum?

In the referendum 72.2% of the electorate voted. In the last general election it was 66.1%.

So it does not make sense. New voters signing up will not represent 12%+likely lower turnout difference.

I am not convinced at all Labour will get 1% less votes than the Tories on Thursday based on this poll.
By:
donny osmond
When: 06 Jun 17 12:42
going at a bit of a tangent i would want my sample nearer to 52/48 in EU
vote

to deviate so far from that and weight back is asking for trouble , imo
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 12:48
Also taking out the likely voter and going to the raw data they have 377 leave and 575 remain.

This totals 952 of people in 1103 have said how they voted in the referendum.

This is 86% of the sample. 72.2% people voted in the referendum so this sample is not representative of the population.

We then add up the raw data for 2015 votes. THIS INCLUDES 'DID NOT VOTE'. The total raw number in the survey is 1028. The total people asked is 1103.

So where are the other 75 people from the raw data if did not vote is included as option?
By:
donny osmond
When: 06 Jun 17 13:08
one qualifying question for polls may be ...do you vote?


so more voters than standard in sample as dont vote is often termination of interview
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 13:15
True Donny but then it would not very well represent the likely finally numbers on the day.

The raw numbers dont add up even when they include a 'did not vote' option for 2015 election. So I cannot work out how they do the weighting even for that.

Its like they pulled the results out of thin air. Would really like to see how the raw calculations actually work.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 13:18
Insider Trader, why does the EU referendum voting weighting have a direct bearing on somehow favouring Labour? 

Put simply, you do not accept the poll because it is not what you want it to be.
By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 13:18

Jun 6, 2017 -- 12:41PM, InsiderTrader wrote:


So you are saying they did not vote in the referendum? We are supposed to take a poll seriously that suggestions 12% of people who intend to vote in this election did not vote in the referendum? In the referendum 72.2% of the electorate voted. In the last general election it was 66.1%.So it does not make sense. New voters signing up will not represent 12%+likely lower turnout difference.I am not convinced at all Labour will get 1% less votes than the Tories on Thursday based on this poll.


Survation poll predicts somewhere near 90% turnout of 18-24 year olds.

By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 13:29
Yes, this "certain to vote" weighting is the difference in 18-24 age groups from Comres to Survation.
By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 13:29

Jun 6, 2017 -- 11:01AM, Meadow X1 wrote:


Good to see you here again CJ, sorry you are not feeling so grand today. The Scottish Labour party are making up ground quickly. For that reason yesterday I placed small amounts on Labour in all the Glasgow seats and some in the central belt.  Strictly I don't expect them to win any of them but at prices up to 20s I am ok with that.  East Lothian is Labours main target but the betting value has all but gone (it's 3/1, was much higher). I am fairly sure Labour will retain Edinburgh South.The Scottish Labour surge threatens to derail Conservative chances in some of their target seats.  Effectively, any seat they are after where there is a significant Labour vote now looks a far less likely gain. East Renfrewshire, Aberdeen South and Stirling come into this category.Jo Swinson would make a great Scottish MP in parliament but she has a tough task. The Conservatives voted tactically in numbers for her in 2015 and she still fell short. You have to feel many of those folks will vote Conservative this time.As you will see from my original post on this thread I am in heavy on the LibDems having a bad night. Less than 10% and less than 10 seats would be the icing on the cake.


Thank you! There's nothing wrong with me in general, but spluttering over people is not conducive to convincing them to vote!

Now I defer to you on Scottish matters, but I'm not seeing where these Labour numbers are coming from in England. Now if we extrapolate that the Scottish polling is seeing the same Labour trend as England then I assume Lab figures are heavily over-estimated. Of course being a different situation north of the border the polling may well be picking up something totally different.

I like Jo, she's a far better politician than her husband, but I doubt she's a 1.66 shot for some of the reasons you mention.

What I'd also suggest is that Scotland might have lower turnout this election as the SNP wave reduces while England may have higher. That is just speculation on my behalf, but it is how I'm looking at the Scottish seats.

By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 13:35
On the rise of the Labour vote in England, perhaps the tuition fee issue is having a direct effect on young voters and their parents/guardians.  In Scotland we already have free tuition fees so the surge is not as dramatic?

You could well be right on the Scottish turnout.
By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 13:41

Jun 6, 2017 -- 11:58AM, thegiggilo wrote:


I also remember that poster earlier cj saying several days in advance of last election that the labour vote was getting decimated by ukip from some canvassing that he had recieved,he's put up the 1.1 and 1.4 today,so i presume he's hearing the same again and he will be putting up bets against labour again.He was right as well as the polls didn't reflect anything that he knew from the doorstep..


I'm tied by what I can say as I'm actually working this time around. Many people who are canvassing are recording that the UKIP vote is being squeezed this time, mostly to Con but some blowback to Lab. Also pro-leave Lab voters are going Lab -> Con to complete the process of leaving the EU. If you add those issues to strong Lab voters refusing to vote for Corbyn you have a lot of previously safe Lab seats in play at pretty juicy prices.

The only place I've genuinely heard optimism for Labour is within London. I suggest that demographics will play a bigger part of predicting those areas than following the polling.

By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 13:52

Jun 6, 2017 -- 1:35PM, Meadow X1 wrote:


On the rise of the Labour vote in England, perhaps the tuition fee issue is having a direct effect on young voters and their parents/guardians.  In Scotland we already have free tuition fees so the surge is not as dramatic?You could well be right on the Scottish turnout.


Perhaps so, but the voters/non voters which that enthuses would likely to be Lab in the first place. What I'd say is that younger voters see Corbyn as edgy and cool, but don't really engage in politics. So while the doling out freebies appeals its the cult of Corbyn and fitting in with social groups rather than Lab policy that's driving polling IMO.

Is that likely to change the woeful turnout figures among young voters? Young voters would swing it for Miliband, AV, Remain, Yes and Hilary directly before those elections. We know how well that went.

I suspect there will be a lot of disappointment among young voters that they can't vote for Corbyn.

By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 14:05
If you are a parent /grandparent/guardian of a child who is likely to be beginning university this year or next year then that £9k per year you will save under the Labour free tuition fees plan must be tempting.
If you are the family of elderly relatives who may need professional care in the foreseeable future, the thought of losing your inheritance through the "dementia tax" must be deeply worrying.
On UKIP, initially I was seeing more than half of UKIP switchers intending to vote Tory and Labour in single figures. Now it seems it's around 35% Tory, 20% Labour, 25% UKIP, 20% Don't know.

These are factors in my mind why Labour are closing the gap.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 14:12
Yougov Scotland poll...

SNP 41% (-1) Con 26 (-3) Labour 25 (+6) LibDem 6 (nc)

Fieldwork 1st-5th June.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 14:12
Meadow X1
06 Jun 17 13:18
Joined: 07 Mar 05
| Topic/replies: 2,357 | Blogger: Meadow X1's blog
Insider Trader, why does the EU referendum voting weighting have a direct bearing on somehow favouring Labour?

Put simply, you do not accept the poll because it is not what you want it to be.


...

No I am not saying that. I have not looked at the Comres one. I am sure there are flaws with that as well.

I am looking for an explanation on the weighting calculations. I thought you would be the person who would know as you have made good predictions on the forum before.

Did you work out the 2015 sample numbers when they include 'did not vote' the same only adds up to 1028 when the total raw sample is 1103?

...

On your point :

why does the EU referendum voting weighting have a direct bearing on somehow favouring Labour?

That is my point we dont know how they do the calculations. Or if you do know you not sharing it with us. The numbers they provide come with no explanation.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 06 Jun 17 14:15
CJ70    06 Jun 17 13:41 
Jun 6, 2017 -- 11:58AM, thegiggilo wrote:

I also remember that poster earlier cj saying several days in advance of last election that the labour vote was getting decimated by ukip from some canvassing that he had recieved,he's put up the 1.1 and 1.4 today,so i presume he's hearing the same again and he will be putting up bets against labour again.He was right as well as the polls didn't reflect anything that he knew from the doorstep..

I'm tied by what I can say as I'm actually working this time around. Many people who are canvassing are recording that the UKIP vote is being squeezed this time, mostly to Con but some blowback to Lab. Also pro-leave Lab voters are going Lab -> Con to complete the process of leaving the EU. If you add those issues to strong Lab voters refusing to vote for Corbyn you have a lot of previously safe Lab seats in play at pretty juicy prices.

The only place I've genuinely heard optimism for Labour is within London. I suggest that demographics will play a bigger part of predicting those areas than following the polling..

As i suspected yet again the polls are total bollox..
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 14:16
Insider, you seem to want to pick the tiniest holes in the Survation poll simply because it is not what you want to see. If you feel their methodology is flawed and you want the exact details to the decimal point you would be best speaking to a professional psephologist at Survation.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 14:31
Meadow if you dont understand how the numbers in that poll work thats fine. I dont and nor does anyone else on here. I was only asking if you knew why the unweighted sample totals didnt add up.

Looking at the Comres one and all their unweighted totals seem to add up.

To state the obvious the key to this election is if young people vote this time.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 14:32

Jun 6, 2017 -- 2:15PM, thegiggilo wrote:


CJ70    06 Jun 17 13:41  Jun 6, 2017 -- 11:58AM, thegiggilo wrote:I also remember that poster earlier cj saying several days in advance of last election that the labour vote was getting decimated by ukip from some canvassing that he had recieved,he's put up the 1.1 and 1.4 today,so i presume he's hearing the same again and he will be putting up bets against labour again.He was right as well as the polls didn't reflect anything that he knew from the doorstep..I'm tied by what I can say as I'm actually working this time around. Many people who are canvassing are recording that the UKIP vote is being squeezed this time, mostly to Con but some blowback to Lab. Also pro-leave Lab voters are going Lab -> Con to complete the process of leaving the EU. If you add those issues to strong Lab voters refusing to vote for Corbyn you have a lot of previously safe Lab seats in play at pretty juicy prices. The only place I've genuinely heard optimism for Labour is within London. I suggest that demographics will play a bigger part of predicting those areas than following the polling..As i suspected yet again the polls are total bollox..


No, you are hoping they are.

By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 14:33
Its not a question of 'picking holes'. If that report was anything like accurate we would all be piling on Labour to win the most seats at 10.0
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 14:35
It's not a report, it is a poll, a snapshot at that time.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 14:38
Ok if that poll was anything like accurate we would all be piling on Labour. The fact is the market does not trust it as a forecast of the future.
By:
Captain Wurzel
When: 06 Jun 17 14:42
I suspect that in reality the Tories are 6 to 8 points in front of Labour. Also there is a big chance that Labour is piling up votes in the wrong

seats while losing support in its typical working class heartland seats.
By:
thegiggilo
When: 06 Jun 17 14:48
Spot on thats the exactly the way i've seen it since the start,just seems like common sense to me you don't need polls..
Meadow you are wrong about me wanting the polls to be wrong,i have a poster in my window with Dr laura davies on it..
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 15:09
I think the gap is something like 42-38.
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 15:31
I don't subscribe to the view that Labour is simply piling up votes in the wrong seats.
By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 15:33

Jun 6, 2017 -- 3:09PM, Meadow X1 wrote:


I think the gap is something like 42-38.


I can't see Corbyn doing better than Miliband. The current polls have them giving Blair in '97 a run for their money.

Should be good money making opportunities for one of us.

By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 15:44
Miliband got 30.4% of the vote. I would be astonished if Corbyn got less than that.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 15:56
Both should get higher with Lib Dems, UKIP and Greens dropping like flies. who will get the UKIP vote?

Are young uni types going to vote in numbers in the holidays? Are they going to just stack up votes in uni towns by postals or vote at their parents houses? I think alot will just miss the vote and complain after like they did with Brexit... but uni fees is a big motivator.
By:
kevinglass
When: 06 Jun 17 16:04
All the Uni's are still in term time....just about finishing exams now. I think the weather may be a bigger issue. It's forecast pretty wet for Thursday.

If only you could vote by text......Maybe Labour should put that in their next manifesto!
By:
thegiggilo
When: 06 Jun 17 16:04
Didn't i read somewhere would take something like 80% of them to turn out to make a difference lol i'd be amaed iof 35% even knew what day it was never mind voted..
By:
Meadow X1
When: 06 Jun 17 16:20
If I said I would pay your £45k uni fees for the next five years would you vote for me?
By:
CJ70
When: 06 Jun 17 16:28
Problem is most uni seats and those with high levels of young voters are LD or Lab already. Lab should take Sheffield Hallam and Leeds North West from LD, but other seats are off limits.

Maybe Lab will get over Miliband in terms of percentage, but I can't see where they are going to pick up seats to beat 232? Maybe a couple off the SNP? Maybe a few off Con in Lab and Wales? Meanwhile Con will almost certainly have an increased vote share and Lab majoritys of 10k+ are in play.

There's a lot of heavy lifting needed to be done by previous non-voters to get Lab anywhere near increasing their vote.
By:
InsiderTrader
When: 06 Jun 17 16:30
Yes. It is a very clever policy to win votes. Should have offered to pay off the debts of all the people who owe money for student loans as well. Would have got more votes of people up to in their 30s.

If you said you would give everyone a gold bar they would vote for you.
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