***The Official MMA v Boxing Thread***

What if Velasquez quits to take on the Klitschkos [;)]

When DeGale etc are fighting boxing becomes even less competitive.

Not picking / blaming DeGale - just last time that crop of talent fought - they were all very very short.

A little like cricket ?
Boxing is possibly going the way of test cricket - loved by the purists and remaining strong in it`s core markets. MMA is like 50 over cricket being better marketed & having a product w/much more growth potential. Sooner or later we might get the 20/20 version , there is always going to be new challenges to boxing because of the enormous amounts of loot to be plundered

I've just stumbled across this, which was rather interesting.  It's the highest selling PPV events in the US for 2009.  The highest selling PPV last year was UFC 100 and six of the top 10 were UFC events.

Off the top of my head, the highest selling PPV this year will be Manny v Margarito but I expect that like last year most of the top 10 will be the UFC.  You'd have been sent off to the loony bin if five years ago you said that this would be the state of affairs.

What's most interesting is the variety of fighters in the UFC which attract large PPV sales whilst boxing, in the US, is reliant on just two fighters: Manny and Floyd:

http://squabbles.com/2010/02/the-top-ten-ppv-buys-for-2009-lesnar-vs-mir-leads-the-parade/

Top 10 PPV buy figures for 2009

1. UFC 100: Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, July 11, 1.6 million

2. Boxing: Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto, Nov. 14, 1.25 million

3. Boxing: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Juan Manuel Marquez, Sept. 19, 1.05 millon

4. UFC 94: Georges St. Pierre vs. B.J. Penn, Jan. 31, 920,000 buys

5. UFC 101: Penn vs. Kenny Florian/Anderson Silva vs. Forrest Griffin, Aug. 8, 850,000

6. Boxing: Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton, May 2, 825,000

T7. UFC 107: Penn vs. Diego Sanchez, Dec. 12, 650,000

T7. UFC 97: Silva vs. Thales Leites/Chuck Liddell vs. Mauricio Rua, April 18, 650,000

9. UFC 98: Lyoto Machida vs. Rashad Evans/Matt Hughes vs. Matt Serra, May 23, 635,000

10. Wrestling: WWE WrestleMania 25, April 5, 582,000 buys

Some interesting facts/estimates I've read over the last few months.  I'll start with the UFC:

UFC 129 - sells out the 42,000 capacity Rogers Centre in Toronto on the first day of pre-sale.  Pre-sale.  This card isn't for another 2 1/2 months.  They're going to have to extend the capacity.

http://www.tsn.ca/mma/story/?id=353297

UFC 127 - Sydney's Acer Arena with a capacity of 18,000 sells out within 30 minutes. 

http://mmajunkie.com/news/21812/ufc-127-penn-vs-fitch-in-australia-equals-fastest-sellout-in-ufc-history.mma

Pacquaio v Margarito was expected to attract 60,000 - 70,000 fans.  It attracted 41,734.

http://blogs.****/Low-attendance-at-Cowboys-Stadium-throw-cold-water-on-Bob-Arums-projections-a42042

Amir Khan v Marcos Maidana - only 4,632 scattered around an arena that holds twice that number

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/dec/12/amir-khan-marcos-maidana-fight

Devon Alexander v Timothy Bradley - was held in a stadium but just a little corner of it.  They put up some curtains to make it a 9,000 capacity.  Only half of those seemed filled yet the 'official' attendance was 6,247 which included members of the military, police officers, firefighters, emergency medical service personnel and military veterans who were admitted free!

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=6072913

So the biggest fights in the US for the last few months are about half-full, whilst the UFC is selling out in minutes around the world.  Now I know some countries (Germany, the UK) may be able to sell out some huge boxing cards, but it's pretty clear that this isn't the case in the US.  I expect just one fight could sell 40,000+ tickets on the first day of presale in North America when it comes to boxing, and that's Manny v Floyd.

When will boxing fans get real and acknowledge the sport is in trouble, even if it's only to admit it is so in North America?

Some good post Templeton! The thing is with boxing its run by too many people trying to protect there fighters and being greedy! Klitschko v D. Haye now that fight needs to happen but its always stalling about the purse the tv rights the venue, Now for arguement sake them fighters were signed for MMA league they would proberly bee on there rematch by now. Its crazy how some of theses average boxers are getting World title fights! In the UFC you are getting the best against the best every show.
The thing i like the most about the MMA world is, they get extra for winning/kotn/sotn/fotn/ there going out there every time to win and win big, not just to pick up a cheque and run around a ring!

funny how you dont mention how well boxing is doin though TP

Like nearly five (YES FIVE) million viewers in germany watched a warm up fight for AA.
How strong it is in Britain at the momement,yes bit of a lull in north americia but thats because the 'aint got a world heavyweight superstar,but when the do it will pick up again.

Not a problem with your love in with MMA/UFC its all about choices,but boxing must be doing ok as you 'aint be on lately(boxing forum) trying to slag it off,your last attempt was digging sky out for having four commentators poor form TP for you.
Stay lucky and be happy

I stopped discussing the state of boxing on the boxing forum as the forumites on there quite clearly didn't like me making critical comments on the sport.  So, as requested, I started a thread here.  It appears that is now being attacked!

I have quite clearly stated on this thread that boxing is thriving in Germany.

It's fallen permanently behind MMA in the US and Canada.  It's a little naive, in my opinion, to think this is just because there's no top heavyweight.  It's because there's now an alternative, which is much better promoted/managed.  Why could Khan v Maidana, Alexander v Bradley and Pacquaio v Margarito not come close to selling out?

Sj, UFC 127 was live on ESPN last night.  As mentioned above, it broke arena records selling out the 17,000+ tickets in 30 minutes.

There were 10 live UFC fights (yes, live) on tv and Facebook (yes, they've started streaming live undercard fights (these are competitive fights, not the prospect versus bum you get in boxing) on Facebook) last night.  I believe Sky showed just two live fights last night?  Why did the promoters not stream the undercard fights live on the net? 

On the Syfy channel was the fledgling British organisation, BAMMA, having an event in the MEN Arena.  Even small British organisations are now having events in the UK's largest arenas.  I have no idea why a science fiction channel is screening MMA but I guess it makes business sense.

So last night there were 11 or 12 live MMA fights on tv and 2 on Facebook.  I believe boxing had 2 live fights on tv.

If you don't like the discussion regarding the growth of MMA and the fall of boxing then don't post here.  I've been good enough to not discuss it on the boxing forum so there's nothing else I can do.

Now, if you've got examples of the growth of boxing then this would be a good place to post them.  You clearly believe boxing will continue to thrive and outsell MMA, and I disagree. 

If you believe I'm clueless on the subject of boxing, then please feel free to correct any of my erroneous statements.

Canada looking to phase out boxing. Have you guys seen this?

The 2015 Canadian Games will feature MMA instead of boxing :o

...........

Strange Templeton, why have you not put up the Haye Klitschko fight being announced? Boxing fans have admitted that it is going through a lull in North America but as explained to your goodself the world doesnt end with North America.
Lets see how your sport attendances get on in Europe against Haye V Klitscho and PPV wise. I'm still yet to see a UFC/MMA event deemed worthy of a SKY PPV of £15, of course I may of missed it

And thats your choice mate fair play you know. But obviously the general consensus is not for yourself, thats why there has been so many english Boxing PPV's recently

I didn't put up the Haye v Klitschko fight as I don't post on here that often. 

It's the same reason I didn't mention Hatton v Alvarez (a British fighter fighting for the WBC light middleweight title against the brightest hope in boxing) not even being on live tv in the UK.  At the same time, Primetime TV (which often shows live boxing on PPV) was showing a second rate MMA card.

The Haye v Klitschko fight will be bigger in Europe than any MMA event, no matter how you measure it.  And, as you say, it will not come close to the UFC when it comes to viewing figures in North America. 

The fight will give boxing a shot in the arm, but I'm not sure one-off large events are what the sport needs to help it grow. The underlying issues will continue to remain.

The news yesterday of the UFC buying Strikeforce (the distant second placed MMA organisation) is the type of thing boxing needs.  The UFC in one fell swoop now own an even greater proportion of the world's top fighters and, once the existing contracts have run their course, will mean 95%+ of the world's top fighter will be within one competitive entity, whereas it's currently about 85%.

Um, I'd expect at least having all British world title fights on live tv.  I don't think that's asking much.  With all the channels available, I'd actually expect all world title fights (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO) to be on live tv.

Of course MMA is growing more quickly than boxing, the discussion is whether MMA will become more popular than boxing on a global basis.

My argument is that it will within 10 years, yours is that it won't. 

I believe the evidence is showing that MMA is already more popular in North America, Japan, Brazil, the Middle East and Australia.  In the UK and Germany boxing is more popular.  I think it's only a matter of time before it's more popular in the UK, but Germany will take a while as they're understandably a little backward when it comes to anything aggressive.

Seven of this weekend's UFC card will be live on tv with a further two on Facebook.  The Klitschko fight is obviously an attention-grabbing fight, but the Bute v Magee one obviously isn't, considering it's on the gaelic football channel.

SJ,
Above you accuse Templeton P of "trying to tear boxing to bits".
That seems to me to be way OTT.
I can`t remember reading such a conciliatory thread on BF, the guy went out of his way to be nuetral - have you not read the entire thread ?

Sj, all the main UFC cards (i.e. the numbered events held in a time zone appropriate for US audiences) are PPV at around $45.  In the UK they're 'free' on ESPN. 

The problem isn't so much about whether Sky can afford it but that since there's nobody running the sport, Sky can't sign a multi-million pound deal to show the top fights.  They have to sign deals with one or two promoters and then bid for other major fights on a fight by fight basis, turning down those they think don't make economic sense.  That's not good for the sport in the UK and neither for UK boxing fans.

With the UFC, they control MMA and so they can say to ESPN: we'll give you exclusive rights to every single fight for £xm over 3 years.  You therefore get all five fights on the main card and two preliminary fights live on tv.

BAMMA is a third-rate promotion, you can continue to mention them if you wish but it's similar to me saying English football is better than Spanish and you continue to compare the Blue  Square league to La Liga. 

As for me, I'm more negative on boxing than I am on MMA because I find much more to be negative about and it frustrates me. 

As I continue to say, this thread isn't about which sport is 'better', that's personal taste, but the direction each sport is taking and whether MMA will become the world's most popular combat sport.

If I was trying to annoy boxing fans or be a troll, I wouldn't have started this thread in 'Other Sports'.

Shame you couldnt bring up ANOTHER Example of two great fights from last week in Katsidis and Morales, and them getting massive viewing figures in the states. You dont bring a balanced arguement to the table end of story

did you not watch ringside last night?  Dan Rafael on,saying how boxing is on the up and world wide it is booming at present.But he is probably wrong also.
Anyway what was your verdict on the big fights last week?

sj
15 Apr 11 15:26 Joined: 16 Nov 02 | Topic/replies: 8,658 | Blogger: sj's blog
did you not watch ringside last night?  Dan Rafael on,saying how boxing is on the up and world wide it is booming at present.But he is probably wrong also.
Anyway what was your verdict on the big fights last week?

A boxing journo says boxing is on the up is hardly worth noting on here.  A Sky boxing show is not going to have someone on say anything else.

Unbiased journalists are sometimes worth listening to.  For example, the New York Times article I read the other day (but didn't post on here as, despite what you may believe, I don't post every pro-MMA article/piece of data I notice and every anti-boxing) is unbiased and is interesting.  It's trying to inform the uneducated that MMA is safer than boxing.  An obvious statement but one which many can't/refuse to understand:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/opinion/02Zinczenko.html