***The Official MMA v Boxing Thread***

David Haye has his say on the matter:

http://www.fightofthenight.com/news/wba-boxing-champ-david-haye-cant-wait-for-ufc-120/

In brief:

- “I think MMA has helped boxing, as it’s made promoters put on serious fights,” Haye says.  “All these big recent fights involving Shane Mosley, Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao have happened because the UFC has forced boxing to raise its game.”

- “I know that when I sit down and watch a UFC show I’m going to get five or six competitive, quality match-ups. You’ll be lucky to see two of those if you go to your average boxing event. That’s why I’m a UFC fan.”

What if Velasquez quits to take on the Klitschkos [;)]

From my point of view oddschecker says it all when looking at the price of the favourite.

Boxing - 34 fights - 6 favs under 1.1, 12 under 1.2

MMA - 21 fights - 5 favs under 1.2

When DeGale etc are fighting boxing becomes even less competitive.

unfair on degale, when book was out on smith fight it started at 2/5, it just got smashed in.

Not picking / blaming DeGale - just last time that crop of talent fought - they were all very very short.

very early on in their career though, degale is being fast tracked, not be more than a year or so til he's at world level

A little like cricket ?
Boxing is possibly going the way of test cricket - loved by the purists and remaining strong in it`s core markets. MMA is like 50 over cricket being better marketed & having a product w/much more growth potential. Sooner or later we might get the 20/20 version , there is always going to be new challenges to boxing because of the enormous amounts of loot to be plundered

Yes, I have often used the cricket analogy. 

Boxing is test match cricket - seen by many as the 'purer' version of the sport, contest last a relatively long time, there's not much structure to it (there isn't a World Cup, Champions League), the fans tend to be a little older.

MMA is twenty20 - more extreme, seen as crass by the establishment, matches don't last as long, younger fans and there's more structure to it (the IPL, the World Cup, the Champions League).

I've just stumbled across this, which was rather interesting.  It's the highest selling PPV events in the US for 2009.  The highest selling PPV last year was UFC 100 and six of the top 10 were UFC events.

Off the top of my head, the highest selling PPV this year will be Manny v Margarito but I expect that like last year most of the top 10 will be the UFC.  You'd have been sent off to the loony bin if five years ago you said that this would be the state of affairs.

What's most interesting is the variety of fighters in the UFC which attract large PPV sales whilst boxing, in the US, is reliant on just two fighters: Manny and Floyd:

http://squabbles.com/2010/02/the-top-ten-ppv-buys-for-2009-lesnar-vs-mir-leads-the-parade/

Top 10 PPV buy figures for 2009

1. UFC 100: Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, July 11, 1.6 million

2. Boxing: Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto, Nov. 14, 1.25 million

3. Boxing: Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Juan Manuel Marquez, Sept. 19, 1.05 millon

4. UFC 94: Georges St. Pierre vs. B.J. Penn, Jan. 31, 920,000 buys

5. UFC 101: Penn vs. Kenny Florian/Anderson Silva vs. Forrest Griffin, Aug. 8, 850,000

6. Boxing: Pacquiao vs. Ricky Hatton, May 2, 825,000

T7. UFC 107: Penn vs. Diego Sanchez, Dec. 12, 650,000

T7. UFC 97: Silva vs. Thales Leites/Chuck Liddell vs. Mauricio Rua, April 18, 650,000

9. UFC 98: Lyoto Machida vs. Rashad Evans/Matt Hughes vs. Matt Serra, May 23, 635,000

10. Wrestling: WWE WrestleMania 25, April 5, 582,000 buys

And 2008 is quite similar:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-ppvbuys121208

Top 10 North American PPV buy rates, 2008

1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao, Dec. 6, 1,250,000

2. UFC: Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture, Nov. 15, 1,010,000

3. Wrestling: WrestleMania, Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Paul “Big Show” Wight, March 30, 670,000

4. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch/Lesnar vs. Heath Herring, Aug. 9, 625,000

5. UFC: Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, Feb. 2, 600,000

6. UFC: Quinton Jackson vs. Forrest Griffin, July 5, 540,000

7. UFC: St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 19, 530,000

8. Boxing: Felix Trinidad vs. Roy Jones Jr., Jan. 19, 500,000

9. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Rashad Evans, Sept. 6, 480,000

10. UFC: B.J. Penn vs. Sean Sherk/Tito Ortiz vs. Lyoto Machida, May 24, 475,000

Some interesting facts/estimates I've read over the last few months.  I'll start with the UFC:

UFC 129 - sells out the 42,000 capacity Rogers Centre in Toronto on the first day of pre-sale.  Pre-sale.  This card isn't for another 2 1/2 months.  They're going to have to extend the capacity.

http://www.tsn.ca/mma/story/?id=353297

UFC 127 - Sydney's Acer Arena with a capacity of 18,000 sells out within 30 minutes. 

http://mmajunkie.com/news/21812/ufc-127-penn-vs-fitch-in-australia-equals-fastest-sellout-in-ufc-history.mma

Pacquaio v Margarito was expected to attract 60,000 - 70,000 fans.  It attracted 41,734.

http://blogs.****/Low-attendance-at-Cowboys-Stadium-throw-cold-water-on-Bob-Arums-projections-a42042

Amir Khan v Marcos Maidana - only 4,632 scattered around an arena that holds twice that number

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/dec/12/amir-khan-marcos-maidana-fight

Devon Alexander v Timothy Bradley - was held in a stadium but just a little corner of it.  They put up some curtains to make it a 9,000 capacity.  Only half of those seemed filled yet the 'official' attendance was 6,247 which included members of the military, police officers, firefighters, emergency medical service personnel and military veterans who were admitted free!

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=6072913

So the biggest fights in the US for the last few months are about half-full, whilst the UFC is selling out in minutes around the world.  Now I know some countries (Germany, the UK) may be able to sell out some huge boxing cards, but it's pretty clear that this isn't the case in the US.  I expect just one fight could sell 40,000+ tickets on the first day of presale in North America when it comes to boxing, and that's Manny v Floyd.

When will boxing fans get real and acknowledge the sport is in trouble, even if it's only to admit it is so in North America?

Seems like Boxing is kind of dying.

Some good post Templeton! The thing is with boxing its run by too many people trying to protect there fighters and being greedy! Klitschko v D. Haye now that fight needs to happen but its always stalling about the purse the tv rights the venue, Now for arguement sake them fighters were signed for MMA league they would proberly bee on there rematch by now. Its crazy how some of theses average boxers are getting World title fights! In the UFC you are getting the best against the best every show.
The thing i like the most about the MMA world is, they get extra for winning/kotn/sotn/fotn/ there going out there every time to win and win big, not just to pick up a cheque and run around a ring!

That is spot on, MMA is dominated by one organisation which, despite some minor criticisms, is focussed on the growth of the sport.

Boxing is run by a number of influential promoters who are interested in making the most money they can out of the fighters they manage/promote/own.  Nobody controls the sport and so it's fragmented, difficult to follow and not managed in an optimal manner.

Hardcore boxing fans tend to refute this, they're so used to the way boxing is run that they can't/refuse to see all that's wrong with how the sport is managed.

Before the UFC, there was nothing to compare boxing with - there are no other major sports which require one on one competition which is not part of a competition/tournament - but now the UFC has shown how to manage such a sport, boxing's frailties are even more noticeable.  In fact, it was boxing's awful structure that first caught Dana White's eye before deciding investing in MMA was a better option.

With the success of the ticket sales for Toronto, the UFC are now mentioning holding more stadium events and this will be another step in breaking into the mainstream.

International 'The Ultimate Fighter' series will be a great way of getting more global exposure and growth.  There are talks of holding one in the Philippines, a UK v Australia series and even India. 

The card in Rio de Janeiro will sell out immediately when it's held in August.

Not only is MMA eclipsing boxing in many of its former strongholds but it's forging ahead in becoming the universally accepted premium global combat sport.

funny how you dont mention how well boxing is doin though TP

Like nearly five (YES FIVE) million viewers in germany watched a warm up fight for AA.
How strong it is in Britain at the momement,yes bit of a lull in north americia but thats because the 'aint got a world heavyweight superstar,but when the do it will pick up again.

Not a problem with your love in with MMA/UFC its all about choices,but boxing must be doing ok as you 'aint be on lately(boxing forum) trying to slag it off,your last attempt was digging sky out for having four commentators poor form TP for you.
Stay lucky and be happy

Seriously sweetheart LET IT GO. You're nowhere near Boxing and never will be end of story. Why do have to mention Boxing? Stick to Muay Thai Judo and Karate you're clueless on the subject mate. Ground breaking deal for MMA last night though eh? Not on Sky sports, but on the SCI-FI Channel FFS what is your "sport" doing on teh Sci-Fi channel? Jesus Christ

I stopped discussing the state of boxing on the boxing forum as the forumites on there quite clearly didn't like me making critical comments on the sport.  So, as requested, I started a thread here.  It appears that is now being attacked!

I have quite clearly stated on this thread that boxing is thriving in Germany.

It's fallen permanently behind MMA in the US and Canada.  It's a little naive, in my opinion, to think this is just because there's no top heavyweight.  It's because there's now an alternative, which is much better promoted/managed.  Why could Khan v Maidana, Alexander v Bradley and Pacquaio v Margarito not come close to selling out?

Sj, UFC 127 was live on ESPN last night.  As mentioned above, it broke arena records selling out the 17,000+ tickets in 30 minutes.

There were 10 live UFC fights (yes, live) on tv and Facebook (yes, they've started streaming live undercard fights (these are competitive fights, not the prospect versus bum you get in boxing) on Facebook) last night.  I believe Sky showed just two live fights last night?  Why did the promoters not stream the undercard fights live on the net? 

On the Syfy channel was the fledgling British organisation, BAMMA, having an event in the MEN Arena.  Even small British organisations are now having events in the UK's largest arenas.  I have no idea why a science fiction channel is screening MMA but I guess it makes business sense.

So last night there were 11 or 12 live MMA fights on tv and 2 on Facebook.  I believe boxing had 2 live fights on tv.

If you don't like the discussion regarding the growth of MMA and the fall of boxing then don't post here.  I've been good enough to not discuss it on the boxing forum so there's nothing else I can do.

Now, if you've got examples of the growth of boxing then this would be a good place to post them.  You clearly believe boxing will continue to thrive and outsell MMA, and I disagree. 

If you believe I'm clueless on the subject of boxing, then please feel free to correct any of my erroneous statements.

Fair point on you keeping it in here. Just think you're very insecure with always trying to comapre it with Boxing, why do that? The sports are nothing like each other, Boxing for the 58,000th time is nowhere near decline with the exception of North America which i've explained many a time to you but you still wont listen is growing massively. Japan, Canada Germany(where its only 2nd to Football) the Phllipines for obvious reasons and Britain. PMSL Pacquiao Margarito not come close to selling out, yeah there was only 40,000+ there mate well played. As said before go and comapre it to Muay thai karate etc, cos Boxing there is no comparision.
As for growth of course your new sport is going to grow quicker, lets see where you are in 150 years time.
You are correct though I wont post here anymore cos we aint going to agree and you're entitled to your opinion, I respect you for your love of your sport, just dont see why you have to try and tear boxing to bits, maybe deep down its a inferiority complex

Canada looking to phase out boxing. Have you guys seen this?

The 2015 Canadian Games will feature MMA instead of boxing :o

...........

Speaking of games, I'm surprised your super duper sport isnt in the Olympics instead of Boxing

Strange Templeton, why have you not put up the Haye Klitschko fight being announced? Boxing fans have admitted that it is going through a lull in North America but as explained to your goodself the world doesnt end with North America.
Lets see how your sport attendances get on in Europe against Haye V Klitscho and PPV wise. I'm still yet to see a UFC/MMA event deemed worthy of a SKY PPV of £15, of course I may of missed it

UFC 100 i would of paid £15 quid for. Cant remember the last boxing PPV i would of paid £15 for! i rather pay £10 a month for ESPN and watch 2-3 cards a month[;)]

And thats your choice mate fair play you know. But obviously the general consensus is not for yourself, thats why there has been so many english Boxing PPV's recently

What boxing and boxers in general need to do is take a pay cut and lose the ego and get a couple of high profile fights on the same card. The undercard on some of these cards are dreadfull! How hard was it to put together haye and the Klitschko fight which still hasnt happened, they should be forced to fight by the boxing bigwigs.

I didn't put up the Haye v Klitschko fight as I don't post on here that often. 

It's the same reason I didn't mention Hatton v Alvarez (a British fighter fighting for the WBC light middleweight title against the brightest hope in boxing) not even being on live tv in the UK.  At the same time, Primetime TV (which often shows live boxing on PPV) was showing a second rate MMA card.

The Haye v Klitschko fight will be bigger in Europe than any MMA event, no matter how you measure it.  And, as you say, it will not come close to the UFC when it comes to viewing figures in North America. 

The fight will give boxing a shot in the arm, but I'm not sure one-off large events are what the sport needs to help it grow. The underlying issues will continue to remain.

The news yesterday of the UFC buying Strikeforce (the distant second placed MMA organisation) is the type of thing boxing needs.  The UFC in one fell swoop now own an even greater proportion of the world's top fighters and, once the existing contracts have run their course, will mean 95%+ of the world's top fighter will be within one competitive entity, whereas it's currently about 85%.

LOL how much Boxing do you want on TV exactly? this weekend like last you will have another 2 live cards on from the UK and abroad how deep do you think Sky's pockets are? It was watched though by 1.4 million in ths states alone[;)]
This growth arguement is nonsense your sport is what 10-15 years old? Boxing 150 of course your "growth" is going to be at a greater rate

Um, I'd expect at least having all British world title fights on live tv.  I don't think that's asking much.  With all the channels available, I'd actually expect all world title fights (WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO) to be on live tv.

Of course MMA is growing more quickly than boxing, the discussion is whether MMA will become more popular than boxing on a global basis.

My argument is that it will within 10 years, yours is that it won't. 

I believe the evidence is showing that MMA is already more popular in North America, Japan, Brazil, the Middle East and Australia.  In the UK and Germany boxing is more popular.  I think it's only a matter of time before it's more popular in the UK, but Germany will take a while as they're understandably a little backward when it comes to anything aggressive.

Seven of this weekend's UFC card will be live on tv with a further two on Facebook.  The Klitschko fight is obviously an attention-grabbing fight, but the Bute v Magee one obviously isn't, considering it's on the gaelic football channel.

LOL how can SKY afford all that? For a so called expert on the North American economic scene you know very little. They charge $50 pretty much every world title fight do you expect that model to work over here with the added British title and European title fights? Jesus H.
Bute Magee is on Premier SPORTS a sports channel which used to be Setenta SPORTS do you see the theme? SPORTS Channel, which differs from your latest domestic card sport being showing on the SCI-FI Channel after Teen Wolf

SJ,
Above you accuse Templeton P of "trying to tear boxing to bits".
That seems to me to be way OTT.
I can`t remember reading such a conciliatory thread on BF, the guy went out of his way to be nuetral - have you not read the entire thread ?

neytral tucker are you serious,boxing has been going well lately so what did he come on and moan about?

That sky had four commentators on a bout and you say he is neutral? i beg to differ like i have said to him enjoy his sport but dont keep trying to compare it with boxing

Sj, all the main UFC cards (i.e. the numbered events held in a time zone appropriate for US audiences) are PPV at around $45.  In the UK they're 'free' on ESPN. 

The problem isn't so much about whether Sky can afford it but that since there's nobody running the sport, Sky can't sign a multi-million pound deal to show the top fights.  They have to sign deals with one or two promoters and then bid for other major fights on a fight by fight basis, turning down those they think don't make economic sense.  That's not good for the sport in the UK and neither for UK boxing fans.

With the UFC, they control MMA and so they can say to ESPN: we'll give you exclusive rights to every single fight for £xm over 3 years.  You therefore get all five fights on the main card and two preliminary fights live on tv.

BAMMA is a third-rate promotion, you can continue to mention them if you wish but it's similar to me saying English football is better than Spanish and you continue to compare the Blue  Square league to La Liga. 

As for me, I'm more negative on boxing than I am on MMA because I find much more to be negative about and it frustrates me. 

As I continue to say, this thread isn't about which sport is 'better', that's personal taste, but the direction each sport is taking and whether MMA will become the world's most popular combat sport.

If I was trying to annoy boxing fans or be a troll, I wouldn't have started this thread in 'Other Sports'.

Here we go again.  Yet another boxing debacle.

This time Eddie Hearn (c&b T Peck) on the Amir Khan fight no longer being on Sky but now screened on a no-mark tv channel (Primetime TV). 

http://www.sportinglife.com/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=boxing/11/04/14/BOXING_Manchester_TV.html

Some lowlights from the article (as amazing as it seems, these aren't quotes from me in previous posts/threads but from Eddie Hearn:

"If we keep doing things like this, we'll kill the game."

"To say that it is about the fans and take it off the biggest platform in the UK and put it on a small channel with about 5,000 viewers is total commercial suicide."

"There's not one person who thinks this was the right decision."

"We all know the undercard which was put together was not accepted by the broadcaster."

"In 20 years of working in the fight game, we've never experienced that kind of action.  I think what has been done here has probably killed Amir's credibility in the UK, certainly with our leading sports broadcaster."

--------------------

Yet another example of what I've been saying, and this time full of quotes from a boxing man. 

Boxing fans who keep their heads in the sand, really don't realise how much boxing is shooting itself in its foot by not having anyone run the sport as a whole.

Shame you couldnt bring up ANOTHER Example of two great fights from last week in Katsidis and Morales, and them getting massive viewing figures in the states. You dont bring a balanced arguement to the table end of story

If I'd seen these figures you talk of and could compare them with figures over the last 10-20 years, then I would.  Do you have them?

did you not watch ringside last night?  Dan Rafael on,saying how boxing is on the up and world wide it is booming at present.But he is probably wrong also.
Anyway what was your verdict on the big fights last week?

http://www.boxingscene.com/morales-maidana-draws-huge-rating-beats-canelo-hatton--38133

You should title the thread, I'm desperate to slaughter Boxing and prove somehow that my "sport" is better than it. End of the day youcan tell on thsi site alone what is more popular when you your occasional event (and it is occasional comapred to boxing) there is nothing like as many posts, than on the Boxing forum during a fight.
I think windsurfing gets more in the other sports section

sj
15 Apr 11 15:26 Joined: 16 Nov 02 | Topic/replies: 8,658 | Blogger: sj's blog
did you not watch ringside last night?  Dan Rafael on,saying how boxing is on the up and world wide it is booming at present.But he is probably wrong also.
Anyway what was your verdict on the big fights last week?

A boxing journo says boxing is on the up is hardly worth noting on here.  A Sky boxing show is not going to have someone on say anything else.

Unbiased journalists are sometimes worth listening to.  For example, the New York Times article I read the other day (but didn't post on here as, despite what you may believe, I don't post every pro-MMA article/piece of data I notice and every anti-boxing) is unbiased and is interesting.  It's trying to inform the uneducated that MMA is safer than boxing.  An obvious statement but one which many can't/refuse to understand:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/opinion/02Zinczenko.html

sj
Date Joined:     16 Nov 02
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15 Apr 11 18:07 Joined: 16 Nov 02 | Topic/replies: 8,659 | Blogger: sj's blog
http://www.boxingscene.com/morales-maidana-draws-huge-rating-beats-canelo-hatton--38133

You should title the thread, I'm desperate to slaughter Boxing and prove somehow that my "sport" is better than it. End of the day youcan tell on thsi site alone what is more popular when you your occasional event (and it is occasional comapred to boxing) there is nothing like as many posts, than on the Boxing forum during a fight.
I think windsurfing gets more in the other sports section

Come on, I've clearly stated boxing is very popular in Mexico.  Your link is just agreeing with what I've said.

Yes, MMA is not popular on the Betfair forum.  Again, that really isn't a particularly informative guide as to the sport's popularity.  Attendances, tv viewing figures, PPV sales, internet searches, newspaper content, tv content and such like are what should be used to decide how popular each sport is and in which direction they're going.

A good night for boxing though, this debacle (yes, yet another one) wasn't shown on a major tv channel.

It's nonsense like that which will be cause yet more people to watch more MMA and less boxing.

PMSL you get the occasional boxing card on Primetime mate JUST LIKE MMA. Tell me my dear in the UK which channel has the more viewers ESPN or Sky Sports? I think we'll leave it there in terms of major tv channel's eh

Only a matter of time till Sky Sports pick up major MMA events IMO. Tested the waters with the TUF series

bornisthekingofSB

PMSL you get the occasional boxing card on Primetime mate JUST LIKE MMA. Tell me my dear in the UK which channel has the more viewers ESPN or Sky Sports? I think we'll leave it there in terms of major tv channel's eh

Boxing is more popular in the UK than MMA.  I've never said otherwise.

The debate is to in which direction the popularity of both sports on a global basis.  You can break that down by country too.

I believe that ESPN showing every single UFC card live and Primetime showing the secondary promotion, Strikeforce, live on PPV is a sign that MMA's popularity is increasing.

I also believe the fact that the majority of world title fights in boxing aren't shown at all on British tv is an indication of the lessening interest in boxing as a sport.  The fact that Sky/ESPN/terrestrial don't show a large selection of British fighters in a world title fight live or at all (e.g. Froch, Khan, Hatton) is a very strong indication that the interest isn't what it once was.

The main reason the UFC have chosen ESPN is because the UFC demand full production control.  From commentators to opening credits, from interviews to advertising.  Sky don't like that.  It's the same in the US with many of the major broadcasters, they want some control over the UFC and the UFC just refuse to budge (and continue to grow their promotion at an incredible rate).

It is a rather frustrating that many of you boxing guys criticise boxing and many cards in the boxing threads but refuse to budge one inch on this thread.

Do you really disagree that the way MMA is organised is much better than boxing?

Do you disagree that MMA has become more popular on a PPV and attendance basis in the US than boxing?

Five years ago the current scenario couldn't have been imagined, and I dread to think what the state will be in five years time.

Havent you ever said otherwise? Intresting. Are we still on which direction rather than which is bigger globaly? How much longer do you need? Of course UFC cards are going to be shown everytime lives how many cards do you show per month compared to Boxing? Its impossible to show every boxing card.
I totally agree and have done that Boxing undercard's could be stronger, that there is too many commentators now on Saturday fight night, that there are too many world titles? Another reason why not every world title fight cant be shown which explained to you countless times but you refuse to budge on.
I've already said that I agree with you that in North America the PPV attendance is more popular than Boxing. But teh world doesnt end with .
Will you budge thats its a absolute sham that a ex WWF susperstar gets a Heavyweight title shot with a superb record of 3-1 in the sport?

I think it can be compared to cricket :
Boxing is like Test Cricket - for the purists with some classic encounters every year,it will never die.
MMA is something like one-day cricket - more accessible, more growth potential.
And we are perhaps waiting for the 20/20 version ...

Tucker Max, I agree with you almost entirely and have made the same comparison before, the only difference being I'd say MMA is the
20/20 version though.

Sj,

that there are too many world titles? Another reason why not every world title fight cant be shown which explained to you countless times but you refuse to budge on.

I agree with this.  I always have done.  I don't know why you'd say otherwise.

The fact there are a ridiculous amount of world titles is a major reason as to why they're not all shown on tv and is also the point I'm trying to make.  Boxing not having anyone run the sport (like the PGA does for golf, the ATP for tennis, the UFC for MMA) is what is hurting it.  Imagine one association/organisation running the sport, with one world title, with all the fighters being told who they're fighting by those in charge and not by greedy promoters, who can sell the rights to the sport to a tv company, etc.  MMA has this and is growing as a result, boxing does not and its popularity is, in my opinion, decreasing.

Sj's other points

This thread is the direction of the sports.  I've said many times, we're looking at a 5-10 year period until the argument is, in my opinion, settled.  We're talking about a huge shift, a sport which is one of the most popular sports of all time versus a sport which was illegal in nearly all of the US states just 10 years ago.  Turning MMA into a more popular sport is not something that can happen in a short time period, although if in 2000 I'd told you that MMA would be outselling boxing in PPV sales and attendance in North America by a massive margin, you'd have thought I was mentally ill.

The increase in popularity will only come in a small part from the conversion of boxing fans.  It's the next generation who have grown up with MMA who will create/increase the gap in popularity between MMA and boxing.  Generational shifts take a generation, not one or two years.  It started 4 or 5 years ago and so will take another 5-10 years.  Just look ringside at a UFC event and a boxing event and have a rough guess at the average age.  You see virtually no 50+ year olds at an MMA event but boxing is full of them.

Brock Lesnar: there are a few reasons he got a title shot so early into his MMA career:

1) MMA is 'Mixed Martial Arts'.  Wrestling (we're talking of the real sport, not the WWE) is one of those martial arts.  Lesnar was one of, if not the, best of his generation at wrestling.  Wrestling is the best martial art to be an expert in for MMA.  It's very difficult to compare to boxing, but imagine there is boxing (MMA) and there are a number of other sports which can be used in boxing, sports such as 'jabbing' - where you can only throw jabs; 'uppercuts' - where you can only throw uppercuts, etc).  Would it really be incredulous to believe that the world's best jabber could spend 18 months practicing other punches and then get a shot at a title?  I'd say Lesnar's shot was more deserving than Dereck Chisora's (which, thankfully, is no more)...

2) The HW scene in the UFC was, much like boxing's, rather weak. 

3) He was a PPV draw.  As sad as it sounds, fans wanted to see the fight and so the fans got it.  That's how it tends to work in MMA, thanks to one organisation pretty much running the sport.

like the cricket analogy

Worth bringing this thread up for today's announcement: the US television network has just signed a 7-year deal with the UFC.  As the head of Fox Sports said, this is the sport for the current/next generations, it is what boxing was to the last generation.  Exactly as I've been saying.

Four cards on Fox, 6 on FX, two series of live The Ultimate Fighters on FX each year and all the various programming on FX and Fuel. 

Remaining a predominantly PPV business but all the PPV cards but will be revamped.  No more gladiator man opening credits.

As an anti-UFC journo has just tweeted: People, a major network has made a multi-year, multi-platform, big money commitment to the UFC. This is the biggest MMA story ever.

First card is November 12th, same night as Pacman v Marquez.  Not ideal, going up against the main man in boxing, but it's the only gap in their schedule this year.

That should read: ...the US television network Fox...

oh

long time since this thread was ttt boxing must be doing ok.(LOL) btw Temp the 3milllion that tuned into the fury chisora fight(only british title fight) were they all last generation fans?

Templeton Peck
Joined: 17 Sep 02
Replies: 3308 18 Aug 11 19:15   
Worth bringing this thread up for today's announcement: the US television network has just signed a 7-year deal with the UFC.  As the head of Fox Sports said, this is the sport for the current/next generations, it is what boxing was to the last generation. 


tbf temp they would say that as they have just bought the product

Only 44,000 turning up for Klitschko V Adamek Saturday Clearly a dying sport [;)]

but sj this IS the biggest mma story ever, 44,000 is a great number but i would find it hard to believe they could sell that many tickets in america and you rarely get numbers like that in boxing these days unfortunately. ufc 129 a few months ago sold out in a couple hours and they had to put in more seats eventually topping 55,000.

razz everything is not based around amercia,did you know in germany(alone) 16.2 million people watched Wlad's last fight v Haye,hw many do you think would tune into a pacman mayweather fight?

Whatever UFC fans think boxing is NOT dying

btw i know it was in Manila but 70,000 turned up for a press conference for an up coming fight,not to shabby for a dying sport.

As i have said many times to TP,i have nothing against UFC fighters/fans but just cant understand why their fans keep trying to tell people boxing is dying.

70,000 ayy? a mma organisation called pride fc did a 91,107!!! show in 2002 and several shows at 64k a few times a year for the best part of a decade at the saitama super arena in japan,it had a pretty big following in america too. 16.2 million people watched the wlad/haye fight in germany because it was on national t.v not ppv. you cant compare that to a ppv fight in america. especially when the main fight was barely competative at all. have you got any idea of the ppv numbers elsewhere around the world?

im a boxing fan, but to say that compared to the hayday of boxing in the 70's and 80's boxing hasn't fallen in popularity so drastically, seems crazy to me.

Razz

that 70,000 was a press conference talking aboout the fight not the fight(still to take place)

Mate go around the boxing gyms in england now,there are not enough coaches to go round,another UFC states he is a boxing fan(lol) sorry mate that old line always makes my laugh.

So you are not impressed by 12 million tuning in (one  country alone) for a sport that is dying,what about three million for two unknown fighters(unless your into boxing) on channel 5 for a little british title fight?
Just think we will go round and round in circles,but for people to say boxing is dying are wide of the mark

razz Joined: 27 Nov 10
Replies: 473 09 Sep 11 12:22   


im a boxing fan, but to say that compared to the hayday of boxing in the 70's and 80's boxing hasn't fallen in popularity so drastically, seems crazy to me.

Of course cos they were getting 40,000+ in Germany and Eastern Europe during the 70's and 80' mate Not everythign starts and ends with eth good ole U S OF A
How many viewers would you get if two British fighters fought for the doemstic title? I'm guessing less than three million

that 70,000 was a press conference talking aboout the fight not the fight(still to take place)

Mate go around the boxing gyms in england now,there are not enough coaches to go round,another UFC states he is a boxing fan(lol) sorry mate that old line always makes my laugh.

So you are not impressed by 12 million tuning in (one  country alone) for a sport that is dying,what about three million for two unknown fighters(unless your into boxing) on channel 5 for a little british title fight?
Just think we will go round and round in circles,but for people to say boxing is dying are wide of the mark

aww common no need for that, you shouldn't judge me because im a MMA fan, i was a boxing fan before I knew MMA even existed, but the way I see it MMA is more effective than boxing, and I like the variation of technique's more.
I don't get why some people like to think boxing fans and mma fans are on the opposite sides to each other, and cant for the life of me understand why people can't just like both

as for the 12 million:
i never said I wasn't impressed by that, hell for a country with like 80 million ppl or something that's amazing. my point was that you cant compare that to a ppv fight that would be shown for free on national t.v.
Also i never said anything remotely like "boxing is dying"
The chisora vs fury fight was a breath of fresh air after the sham of a fight that was haye/klitschko.

that *would'nt* be shown for free on national t.v

Of course cos they were getting 40,000+ in Germany and Eastern Europe during the 70's and 80' mate  Not everythign starts and ends with eth good ole U S OF A
How many viewers would you get if two British fighters fought for the doemstic title? I'm guessing less than three million

well the U.s.a was one of the biggest boxing countries in the world, it's a prime example of how boxing is nowhere near as popular as it once was. same can be said of Britain. the British title fight was on channel 5 which doesn't get much of the audience share anyway but 3 mill is very good imo.
I said that I didn't say boxing is dying, I think it was up until a couple years ago thanks to the greediness of the promoters, but i think its slowly coming around to the fact that they need to change something.

Well we'll have to disagree and Floyd V Ortiz and Pac-Man V Marquez in the next few months will show that.
As for Britian never ever been stronger, NEVER

disagree about what?
didnt they used to show boxing a lot more often on terrestrial t.v back then as opposed to the 1 or 2 fights a year we get now? or do you mean british boxers? we have more world class fighters over the last decade than ever before possibly.

I've said a number of times that boxing is incredibly popular in Germany, especially for the Klitschkos.  The Philippines too, and Mexico and a number of other countries.

Am I impressed by 12m tuning in?  Not particularly, it's goof but just a couple of weeks ago the UFC had 30m watching on tv in Brazil. Their next event there will probably be a 100,000+ stadium sell out.   

As I've said, this is a generational change and so we'll have to wait another 5-10 years to see the switch from boxing to MMA as being recognised as the most popular combat sport on a global basis.

goof should obviously read good.

Got to wait another 5-10 years now?

I've said that to you on countless occasions.  It's a generational shift, the boxing fans in their 40s and 50s aren't all of a sudden going to become MMA fans, but the teenagers are growing up with MMA in many formats and they're outnumbering the boxing fans.

Interesting quote from the head of the Louisiana State Boxing and Wrestling Commission:

According to Alvin Topham, chairman of the Louisiana State Boxing and Wrestling Commission, the glory days of "the sweet science" are long in the past. Poor marketing and publicity have plagued it for nearly 20 years.

"Everyone would love to see Manny Pacquiao fight Floyd Mayweather -- that would be the fight of the century -- but it's never going to happen," Topham said. "Boxing is in the toilet in terms of promotion."

As a result, the quality and quantity of competition has taken a major hit.

"Guys like Tommy Hearns and Marvin Haggler aren't around anymore," he said. "I couldn't even name five guys in the welterweight division today."

27 April on this thread is an example:

"The increase in popularity will only come in a small part from the conversion of boxing fans.  It's the next generation who have grown up with MMA who will create/increase the gap in popularity between MMA and boxing.  Generational shifts take a generation, not one or two years.  It started 4 or 5 years ago and so will take another 5-10 years."

so Mr Topham couldn't name (i think he should stay of the family booze)

Pacman
Ortiz
Berto
Mosley
Jones

shall i throw in Mayweather as well? FFS people give it up.As i have said all along two different sports,Dana White is a wannabee and for some reasons always mentions boxing at a UFC event,Dana get over it and concentrate on your own sport.Boxing will still be here when we 'aint.
Btw TP were you not impressed with the viewing figures for Fury Chisora?for what its worth as well this week on UK tv(live) we have Prizefighter(thurs),Fight Night (sat) Channel 5(sat) Primetime(sun morning)so someone thinks boxing is doing ok.So see you in 5/10 years TP,keep knocking boxing as you do,you could be the next Dana White.

sj i don't understand your point here, you keep saying that mma and boxing are 2 different sports.... of course they are, no one has said otherwise.
what do you mean dana white is a wanabee? a wannabee of what? you say dana white mentions boxing at ufc events when in reality he is on screen for a live event for about 1 minute out of the whole card when he talks about the main event. i watch every ufc event and the only time i can remember him talking about boxing is when james toney fought(i say fought but that implies a competitive fight.) lost to randy couture.
i think its pretty obvious he does an amazing job, and to have grown the sport this much in a decade is remarkable, especially when you think that he used to be a boxercise trainer.
Dana white was a boxing fan way before he ever got into MMA, his like of boxing you are confusing with his dislike of boxing promotions and promoters that have near ruined the sport over the last couple decades

Also you keep saying that the people your replying to are knocking boxing when they have said no such thing. what gives?

Razz

dana white and TP keep trying to put ufc/mma up against boxing thats why i keep saying they are two different sports,why dont they put it up against WWE (or whatever its called?)

Dana White claims(and you claim he is) to be a boxing fan'wannabee',let alone he did not know who Manuel Marquez  was before he fought Mayweather(does that sound like a boxing fan?)Razz if you 'aint heard Dana White's rants about boxing well sorry mate you have had your head in the sand for a very long while,yep agree some of it is against promoters.
Have alook at Templeton pecks posts on boxing nearly every post is knocking boxing,i will leave it there as we are going round and round in circles,i will come back in 5/10 years and see how the land lies.
Enjoy your sport and good luck

templeton peck is comparing viewing figures and points of view from people in the boxing community, he's not 'putting them up against boxing' .
the ufc is a business they cant not put cards on just because there's a boxing card on the same night, wwe is about as far from boxing or mma as you can get.
you say dana white rants about boxing on ufc cards when thats simply not true, maybe your thinking of youtube videos where he's interviewed and asked about boxing by the interviewers, but i have never seen one where he disses boxers, most of it is against the business side of it not against the fighters.
Just because someone says negative things about certain aspects of the sport doesn't mean they aren't an enthusiast, as you seem to be a big boxing fan its safe to say you watch a LOT more boxing than dana white as i dont think he really has time to watch another sport anymore, but that doesnt not make him a fan.

good video that shows the arrogance of boxing promoters bear in mind its 4 years old:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtKx41UdCj0

as said i will leave it there,what annoys me is that Mr Peck is only seen on the boxing forum when there is a poor fight or decision,very rarely does he come on and say what a great fight etc.

Again enjoy your sport(i have nothing against it and hats off to the blokes who get in there and do it) as i am sure you will,one last point i am sorry,if Dana White did not know who Marquez was i can assure you he is NO boxing fan.

Good luck and stay safe

Dana White is a fan of boxing, he's like me though, not a fan of how it's run.  Way before he got involved in MMA he actually created a boxing program for inner city youth.  Also, he thinks they're different sports, not directly competing sports. he sees boxing as a competitor in the sense that the NFL/NBA/NHL/etc are.  If there's one boxing related subject which Dana frequently laments then it's Bob Arum.  He cannot stand Bob Arum.     

He's a promoter, you have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.  He knows who Marquez is, he was just making the point that it wasn't the fight the world wanted to see.  Mayweather had announced he was fighting on the same night as a UFC event and Dana was highlighting that UFC make the best fights whilst boxing so frequently doesn't.  I doubt he follows boxing closely though as being president of the UFC takes up all of his time.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/boxing/2631135/UFC-supremo-Dana-White-has-mocked-Juan-Manuel-Marquez.html

Here's an article detailing a twitter exchange between Dana and Oscar de la Hoya, where Dana's saying Oscar can save boxing and Oscar's saying he'd love to discuss ideas with Dana:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/494105-dana-white-and-oscar-de-la-hoya-create-a-bromance-on-twitter


WWE is suffering because of the UFC way more than boxing, a lot of boxing's problems are of their own making.  I did a comparison of WWE PPV figures with the UFC's on another forum a year or two ago and you could see an incredibly strong negative correlation between the two, i.e. as the UFC's PPV figures were shooting up, WWE's were plummeting.

Yep, there's a good amount of boxing on over the next few days, but it's very low quality.  Prizefighter is a bit of a joke (and bent).  Tyson Fury is in a 1.04 mismatch. Saul Alvarez in a mismatch. A shot Erik Morales against someone having his first 12 round fight. Mayweather's got an interesting fight, but there's no arguing Mayweather and Manny are massive draws.

The British HW title fight on C5 did good figures, it was a competitive fight and a fight fans wanted to see.  If Friday's fight was against David Price then it could also do well, but it's not.  It's back to the same old mismatch.  Instead of learning that people will watch competitive fights, they treat the public with disdain and pair him up with a bum.  This is why boxing is in trouble, not because there's a lack of interest in the sport but because those who run the sport are only interested in lining their pockets by arranging their fighters to compete in mismatches.

If boxing was run along the lines of the UFC, then Tyson Fury would be facing a step up in competition, not his promoter's hand-picked bum.

I'll be watching each and every fight.  Will I post something derogatory about one or more of the fights? Probably. Enough mismatches and potential for fixing for me to continue the fight to help boxing become a well managed sport.

A little off topic, but yesterday I saw this video of Hatton v Castillo with me in it. I look a little moronic but will still share it.

3 mins 7 secs in you can see me in a white shirt on the top right corner jumping up and down with one hand in the air (just one hand as had a bottle of lager in the other), a good three or four seconds before anyone else.  Does that look like someone who hates boxing?  I knew what that body shot had done a good time before the rest of the crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeYWanxhfs

I also agree that if I were to mix up with my negative comments about boxing with some positive ones then my points of view may be taken more seriously.

Yeah you make some good points. Fury should be stepped up no doubt, you are just a troll on the boxing forum as I've said before. You've had Murray V Mitchell Chisora V Fury Degale V Groves the fights are going in the right direction.

It depends on how you'd term a troll.  I can assure you I don't post on there for any sort of reaction.  It's merely to help relieve myself of the frustration at seeing boxing not having a proper structure.  No other sport is as badly managed and I'd love for a billionaire to create some sort of UFC-type organisation.

i would like to see boxing promoters and broadcasters take it completely out of the sanctioning bodies hands. to keep them involved let them each have a different champion and each year they fight a 4 man tournament.
if something doesn't change mma will replace boxing as the top sport, although from what i see average sports fans don't care about either. personally I find ground fighting ugly and boring so i prefer even kickboxing.

Yep, all the governing bodies need to be scrapped. Ringside are covering this next Thursday, will be interesting to see what they say.

The average sports fan doesn't yet care for MMA, but a large part of that is that 95% of UFC events happen in the middle of the night. Also, 95% of the British media only cover MMA in a negative light.  Just look at that nonsense about the 8 year olds during the week.  Doing something much safer than boxing yet it's being demonised.

Frank Warren and Goldenboy leaving Sky and moving to a subscription only channel will accelerate boxing's fall.  No new fans are going to be watching these fights, just those who are already boxing fans.

What's interesting is the main reason the UFC haven't been coming over to the UK on a more regular basis is that they've not been able to get a great tv deal. The money they make in the US far outweighs what they could get here.

With Sky losing a lot of boxing, I can imagine that frees up some cash for a big deal with the UFC.  That deal would almost certainly have to include at least 6-8 live shows in the UK.

This SKY MMA deal when's it happening?

when britain produces an actual title contender i guess ^^

razz come on,ufc will never overtake boxing,imo of course

it already has in a lot of ways. UK is pretty small in terms of the ufc's interest in it as there's very few legitimate top contenders in any division, especially compared to almost every other region the ufc visits hence the lack of a better tv deal deal. as a company though it's already one of the most valuable sports franchises out there. the global expansion that they have been pushing seems to be opening up a lot more mainstream attention and the network tv deals on fox sports in US/aus/ and in other countries is garnering more and more attention and opening the doorway to a whole new generation of fans compared to boxing which is primarily still ppv based, with a fan base that is getting considerably older while the promoters struggle to build new stars.

Not to mention the rapid pace at which the fighters, training and the sport itself are evolving and improving, which will intrigue fans as they see this evolution of an entire sport rather than a single fighter, over the next generation.
also the very mindset required from years of martial arts discipline and humbleness in a lot of the athletes opens up a very valuable opportunity for the sport via social interactions with the fans that is unlike every other sport.