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wee sammy
08 Sep 15 22:27
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Date Joined: 16 Dec 03
| Topic/replies: 96 | Blogger: wee sammy's blog
Joeseph retiring end of season to train JP jumpers !
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Report CheltenhamRoar September 8, 2015 10:33 PM BST
And in other news,Man has landed on the moon!
Report triumphoragony September 9, 2015 12:24 AM BST
Now its only been released officially that he is to retire, as a short stint over jumps scared the hell' eh I mean didn't suit.
Report tony57 September 9, 2015 8:45 AM BST
Laugh
Report Rocketfingers September 9, 2015 7:46 PM BST
Had wind of this a fair few months ago but was sworn to secrecy so had to keep hush, wishing Joe, JP and the rest of the gang all the best !!!!!
Report Rocketfingers September 9, 2015 7:46 PM BST
Had wind of this a fair few months ago but was sworn to secrecy so had to keep hush, wishing Joe, JP and the rest of the gang all the best !!!!!
Report Rocketfingers September 9, 2015 7:48 PM BST
What price a chelt winner or two? Pretty short imo.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 9, 2015 8:00 PM BST
If my memory serves me well CheltenhamRoar previously put up an uncannily accurate description of a race in the Breeders Cup,was challenged in a friendly way,a bet was struck which he won,he then gallantly refused the money,no booms just magnanimity.

He gets friendly with the Cambridge One and within a few months is putting up mean spirited posts.

Sad.
Report CheltenhamRoar September 9, 2015 8:16 PM BST
You have a excellent memory Wildman,It's called Humour,You should try it sometime.

For a Bonus point can you name the Horse in Question?

Have a good evening Sir,I know i will.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 9, 2015 8:39 PM BST
I'm always trying humour.

The beast missed the break and was tailed off before turning in,was it Fame And Glory.
Report dj876 September 9, 2015 8:42 PM BST
It was definitely an AOB trained runner,either Magician or the ill fated St. Nick (used to be an absolute certainty for the Coronation cup)
Report dj876 September 9, 2015 8:49 PM BST
You could be correct actually WMFB,it wasn't an AOB winner.

Jesus that Fame and Glory was a paceless yoke but it didn't help when you were running against Sea the Stars.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 9, 2015 9:03 PM BST
It was an Aidan OBrien trained loser.
Report RoyalAcademy September 10, 2015 12:33 PM BST
This all ends in tears or the equivalent of a kept woman a la Jonjo in Jackdaws.

I'd say the influence of Mrs O'Brien nee Crowley in all this couldn't be under-estimated. I've seen stronger men bend to the spousal edict.

The great assumption is that the father's ability is inherently transferrable when even that ability is hard to measure. Give me the belt and braces success of a G Elliott any day over privilege.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 10, 2015 12:45 PM BST
You hope it ends in tears.

Joseph OBrien is all you hate,polite,Catholic a redneck in your eyes.

Funny how your caring compassionate side turns when an ordinary Irishman is doing well.
You even managed to get in a dig about another redneck Irishman Jonjo.

Your passionate alright.
Report RoyalAcademy September 10, 2015 12:57 PM BST
lots have it handed to them on a plate Wildman, most fail

there's a simple lubricant behind this grand project: the vulgarity of new money and the arrogance of wealth. You're telling me Jonjo's training record is successful? He's the jumping equivalent of Bin Suroor.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 10, 2015 1:04 PM BST
" the vulgarity of new money " sounding more like the Cambridge One.

We know what that means uppity Irish lads,rednecks having the temerity to own racehorses,worse still the temerity to train the damn things.

That free education was a disaster,damn that Donough OMalley.
Report Vubiant September 10, 2015 1:10 PM BST
Sounds like we live in a temeritocracy.
Report RoyalAcademy September 10, 2015 1:20 PM BST
if you fail to see or understand how money makes otherwise sane and normal people into ugly, self-absorbed caricatures of themselves you have led a very sheltered life. Auld decency in short supply.
Report firstimevisor September 10, 2015 1:28 PM BST
Joseph O Brien is a seriously talented jockey. Could never understand the stick he gets here. His height, and therefore his weight was always going to be the problem, not his riding ability.Were he a stone lighter he'd still have the top job. As it is he's done really well to get five years out of it, given his size
Report callitasucit September 10, 2015 1:30 PM BST
Jonjo is a top notch trainer IMO.

He has an abundance of sh!te in the stable, but that is not his fault. He doesn't buy em.

When Jonjo has a target for a horse, he hits it an impressively high percentage of the time. Most will mock with the "cheating the handicapper" bollox. He won a GC with Synchronised. Quite a feat IMO. It wasn't the first big chase he won with this plodder.

Many trainers who have had a better standard of beast at their disposal have struggled to have them ready for their big day. Jonjo doesn't. The sign of a good trainer IMO.

You can only work with the tools you have(or are given), and Jonjo does a mighty fine job with his stable of mediocrity. When he has had a good one, he certainly hasn't failed them.

I hope Joseph makes a success of it. His weight has been the catalyst in his demise(can you even call it that) as a jockey, not his talent. I have no doubt he has infinitely more intelligence than most jockeys turned trainers. Yes, he may start out with a helping hand, but good luck to him I say.

Jealousy is a curse.
Report neill d September 10, 2015 2:09 PM BST
The Piltown excursion has been a bit disappointing if you viewed it in light of some kind of O'Brien/McManus Jumping Dream Team. We know how he campaigns but there haven't been any great touches in big handicaps as yet.

Can we expect some improvement in that yard now Joseph is turning his attention to it full-time? I worked in Kilkenny City and found it a hard enough place to get to from the Munster region so maybe Joseph will now has more time to make a better fist of it.

They'll want him to start quick anyway, saw 8/1 for a Cheltenham winner quoted in the paper the other night.

On what Callit says above, if he is half the trainer Jonjo is he will be fine. If he is half the trainer Jonjo is and gets the right raw material he will win Grade 1s.
Report GANT007 September 10, 2015 2:13 PM BST
Pilltown is not in outer Mongolia.
Report neill d September 10, 2015 2:19 PM BST
Is it not near Kilkenny City GANT, found that place a balls to get to from Limerick, that was six years ago mind.
Report GANT007 September 10, 2015 2:23 PM BST
It's just outside Carrick on Suir off a main road.
Report neill d September 10, 2015 2:28 PM BST
Ah right, that sounds fine. The place will probably benefit from Joseph's full attention anyway but he wasn't stuck in transit the way I thought so! Saw he's advertising for staff on FB, wonder will he be able to take any with him from home?
Report GANT007 September 10, 2015 2:32 PM BST
A fine place to train from. Hard to get good staff in the racing game.
Report neill d September 10, 2015 2:40 PM BST
Probably a "no" then. Hope he does well, just a question of whether he has enough of his father's "neurosis" in him. The way he managed to control his weight suggests he has, most lads would have been gone to the bar after the first Epsom Derby win. The neck to take the job after Murtagh will probably stand to him as well!
Report tony57 September 10, 2015 8:25 PM BST
callit,
       can I try to take you to task on your view of mr o,neill? I have the opposite view than yourself..i may have the advantage as I see a lot more of him up close..he has the best training yard you could wish for, he has a unlimited amount of doe, his record for all he has imvho is poor..your right about targets but any trainer worth their salt should be able to have targets and hit a few..but ones in such a privileged passion as jonjo should have a far better record..as for him not buying them?..he seems to be everywhere when they are bought im sure his advice is sought surely?
Report callitasucit September 10, 2015 11:54 PM BST
I cant disagree about whether he is involved in a lot of the buying or not Tony, as I don't know for a fact that he isn't.

I get the feeling though that the final decision is made by a couple of others. JP buys different types of horses to what the likes of Ricci is going out buying. His are mainly store horses, not so much precocious French breds.

Jonjo has suffered on more than one occasion with a very bad virus, so his bad periods can be certainly be excused somewhat.

Every trainer has targets, but to my eye Jonjo hits the ones that count more frequently than nearly anyone else. He consistently has them right for the day that counts , and the market on race day has started to react to this.

Agreed he has state of the art training facilities, but so do many others. JP probably pays over the odds for yokes, simply because its JP buying them. A lot of them are utter rubbish, so I cant see how his position can be viewed as so privileged? A vast amount of his boxes are taken up by sh!te. If he is involved in buying them, then he is partly to blame, but this discussion was about his training ability, not purchasing ability. I cant think of many/any decent horses offhand that I would say..."Jesus Jonjo made a mess out of him".

Can you?

You will also have absolute imbeciles telling you that Jonjo suffered from having AP as his stable jockey. But that is for another day!!
Report tony57 September 11, 2015 9:36 AM BST
you make fair points callit,but are his training ability and buying not the same thing..to be a top trainer your buying is part of the over all training is it not? like a football manager you live or die by who you bring in?
there's no doubt given the right horse the man can do the job..but my point is his record is poor for what he has had and maybe the buying is whats caused it..as for making a mess of a horse ..it was not my point tbh..im coming at it from he does not get the best out of what he has? you may be right, I could be wrong, just a opinion..watch now jonjo goes and wins the training championship?Laugh
Report Distant View September 11, 2015 10:05 AM BST
A lot of Jonjo stock are stores that JP buys and brings through various pre-schooling yards, so Jonjo would have no input in the purchases.

The french horses are unlikely to have much say from Jonjo either, but I would not be sure.

Buying is not part of the training ability of most trainers. Henry Cecil would sit and wait for the stock that he would get from his big owners like the Sheikh and then The Prince and would then make the best of what he got.

Aidan seems to have next to no input on the purchase side of things and waits for the horses to arrive at his yard.

I have never heard of any involvement to a significant degree by Jonjo in the purchases of many of his horses, so he would be judged unfairly using this as part of the process, but maybe he has more input that I am aware of.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 10:38 AM BST
The other side of the coin is many trainers DO buy their own stock , a typical case would be Ted , Jessie is also a good  buyer of stock and buys beautiful animals , you could nearly pick hers out in the paddock without knowing she trained them . Lots of trainers attend the sales with orders from clients and buy what THEY consider a nice horse . You are correct D.V. re Henry and those reciving horses from Goldolphin and Judd . I think Frank buys a lot of JPs for him . What seems to be forgotten here re Jonjo is , not ALL his horses are JPs , he has plenty of OTHER owners who I'm sure he buys for .
Report tony57 September 11, 2015 11:07 AM BST
wr,
a friend of mine had a leg in one with him 2 years ago..he told me the establishment is out of this world..he also told me jonjo bought their horse, I understand a lot of stores are bought by jp..but surely jonjo gets enough threw his hands to have a better record than he has..or ffs jp should change his buying agents..
Report callitasucit September 11, 2015 11:27 AM BST
My comment was that O Neill is a very good trainer.

He is.

And I thnk you agree with that Tony?

Then the argument is not an argument. I was never discussing his ability as a purchaser of horses, which seems to be your main gripe. Your friend may have got a dud, it happens. 99% of the time! Its also a very small sample size to be hanging Jonjo on.

No doubt Jonjo does buy the odd for the smaller owner/syndicate, but my point is his boxes are block full of average sh!te that is being bought for JP. That means he has a large % of rubbish to rain. Given this I think he has done very well to plunder the prizes he has. The reason he has been able to achieve this is that he is an excellent trainer who can consistently have them cherry ripe for the one that matters.

Yes, JP should definitely change his buying agents!! But he is a very very loyal man, so that wont happen.
Report tony57 September 11, 2015 11:29 AM BST
yes callit I take your point.
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 11:36 AM BST
No disrespect to your opinion callit, but i wouldnt send jonjo to the shop for milk.
To say he's a good trainer is in my book miles off the mark.
With the facilities provided to him, he really couldnt do any worse. The place is infested with expensive purchases and he continues to underperform year after year.
For a stable with the financial backing he has, and also he had the champion jockey on call, hes been an unmitigated disaster.
He was a joke trainer in Cumbria, and hes no better now.
Report Distant View September 11, 2015 11:43 AM BST
Have been to Jonjo's and it is a fantastic place. It was the year Mikael won the Neptune whenever that was.

The gallops are amazing and the set up with the hydrotherapy units etc is top of the range.

Jonjo may well buy for the other owners and from memory, many of his biggest successes in the past were with horses that were not in the JP colours, so that would a positive regarding him sourcing horses for owners.

Willie Mullins clearly has a great deal of say in the purchase of his horses, although I assume Gigginstown operate exclusively without trainer input.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 11:43 AM BST
Mincer , ffs find yourself a corner and hang your head in shame , his STATS with horses that are READY is beyond belief .Run along now and find something else to bllet about , you are becoming the forum BORE , same old shyte day after day ..
Report Distant View September 11, 2015 11:45 AM BST
However when you compare the results that The Duke was getting at Jackdaws in the final years of his training career, when he was on the bottle for a lot of it, you wonder why the results are not better given that the facilities were substantially improved after the JP purchase.

It is easy to write a lot of this off as JP plots, but the results are underwhelming overall.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 11:45 AM BST
Distant , have been on the gallops there , beautiful and JP got his moneys worth .
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 11:57 AM BST
Wonky you little rodent, his stats with horses that are ready is beyond belief. What are you talking about ya imbecile. I told you before dont get involved in topics you know nothing about.
I will give you a chance to put your money where your mouth is. I will bet you a grand this so called trainer whos beyond belief has NO winner at next years Cheltenham festival. Now go and have a good think about that and come back to me.
Report wildmanfromborneo September 11, 2015 12:03 PM BST
If that price was open to the forum my grand would be pledged.
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 12:10 PM BST
You are right Dan, that offer was beyond reason, theres too many opportunities to sneak a winner, anyone could fluke a handicap there.
I have decided to withdraw the original offer, and replace it with No winner of a non handicap, and that offer is open to all on sundry.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 12:12 PM BST
Laugh Another fine mess you got yourself into ...
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 12:15 PM BST
I will still give the original bet to you wonks.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 12:18 PM BST
Will take it nearer the time if I think he has the ammo , untill then its on hold , no point in striking a bet without first seen the runners .Thank you .
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 12:23 PM BST
Will take it nearer the time my hole, what do you think i am, a total idiot. So if he has 20 runners and a couple of 6/4 favs , then you might have a bet is it ?.
You dont seem to have much faith in a man who's talent is beyond belief.
Report Distant View September 11, 2015 12:39 PM BST
2015, 2005 and 2001 are the only years since the turn of the century that you would not have collected on this workrider.

The bet should be placed on stats alone.
Report The Gotchee September 11, 2015 12:40 PM BST
what do you think i am, a total idiot. = yesLaugh

Whatever happened Redpender? Did he lose the race?

Did you find that piece of the hurdle that fell out of his saddleExcited
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 12:47 PM BST
Gobber, i have given you a lifetime ban as whatever you are writing could never possibly be of interest to me.
Report The Gotchee September 11, 2015 12:49 PM BST
You had too much hooch last night, you are in a foul mood today.Laugh
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 12:56 PM BST
Tis easy enough put auld wonks in his box.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 2:59 PM BST
Was out so missed your little rant Pieman , don't tell me you are another KINGRAT , welshing on a bet that YOU asked for .You have dug a hole for yourself and are now traying to get out of it .Even a gobshyte of your magnitude wouldn't bet on something were a trainer might'nt even have a runner . You have made your bed and will have to lay in it , or forever be known as KINGRAT mark 11  . My appitite for Cheltenham has been wetted early ....
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 3:18 PM BST
The bet stands to you only wonks, and i will give you until the next dole day to come up with some mechanism for finding the wonga.
Maybe you could put a syndicate together, yerself Dan and a few others. Im not welshing or anything like it, if for some reason you dont want any part of it , then fair enough, but please dont insult me by saying you will wait to see how much ammo he's got.
That would be a bit like backing Chelsea to win the champions league and waiting to see that they were in the semi final first.
Even a clown of your magnitude could see that, you should bite the bullet and have a go wonks, why not ?, as distant view says and he's 100% correct, the stats say its a no brainer, and thats exactly the kind of bet that suits ya.
Report workrider September 11, 2015 3:23 PM BST
Bet is taken Mincer , money to be given to a person of mutual choice 3 weeks before Cheltenham..Thats a bet of a even grand ok ?
Report mincer11 September 11, 2015 3:28 PM BST
Thats fine by me.
Report observerirl September 13, 2015 8:43 PM BST
How does a topic about aob fan site evolve to a side bet about jonjoes winners at chelt.
Report Vubiant September 13, 2015 9:13 PM BST
On the Irish 4um anything can happen -and usually does.ShockedSilly
Report CheltenhamRoar September 13, 2015 9:25 PM BST
Was only thinking this the other day!LaughLaugh

Classic irish forum Grin
Report kavvie September 13, 2015 9:52 PM BST
it ended up with a bet of a grand being struck though!!
Report wixim September 14, 2015 2:45 AM BST
Clearly before a lot of your time, Intersky Falcon (circa 03) amongst many others . And just for parity Albertas Run .  As the English teacher would say ... Discuss
Report Tolmi September 14, 2015 10:02 AM BST
If Intersky Falcon and Albertas Run represent the best case the defence can put forward I think its fair to say the case is lost.
Report callitasucit September 14, 2015 10:54 AM BST
Albertas Run is a very good example of how adept Jonjo is at having them cherry ripe for the one that matters. And also showed that when given the correct ammunition, or anywhere near it, he succeeds.
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