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wildmanfromborneo
02 Sep 12 21:02
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Date Joined: 30 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 21,252 | Blogger: wildmanfromborneo's blog
Controversial yes but before ye lose your collective minds consider the facts.When the Aga Khan bought the best of Marcel Boussacs breeding stock he increased his horses threefold,he distributed his horses between France,England and Ireland.Marcel Boussac was dominant in French racing,was leading owner and breeder numerous times,with the new injection of blood the Aga Khan took over that role,in England he was also successful and won three Epsom Derbies in the first eight years,in Ireland he won next to nothing but he did have extensive stud interests here so seemed not to mind.Then in 1989 the Aga Khans filly Aliysa was disqualifies from the Oaks after testing positive,he removed all his horses from England,the main beneficiary of this madness was John Oxx.Now with a much enhanced string of the best bred horses in the world Oxx proceeded to win nothing,well maybe you could count Manntari winning the National Stakes as a two year old.The horses were badly trained,badly placed and under performing,he was saved an ignominious sacking by the arrival of Sinndar a champion and later Alamshar not such a champion but he had a decade of abject failure.
Sinndar and Sea The Stars have saved this trainers reputation but when you consider he inherited a stable that was paid for and full with good horses and great owners I would contend his career has been a huge disappointment.

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Replies: 203
By:
Mr Eboue
When: 02 Sep 12 21:07
Yep I bet he struggles to sleep at night thinking about all those group one races he's won.
By:
Mr Eboue
When: 02 Sep 12 21:09
And what about Azamour?

St james palace
irish champion stakes
Juddmonte international
king george
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 21:12
The last 5 years has been very very bare regarding Aga Khan big level wins. Look at France for goodness sake, every year he has numerous Classic winners or Classic horses. Living off past success wears thin eventually!.

Would not say a poor trainer but like Kevin P. Time waits for no one and maybe handing the reins to his son and taking a step back but I can't see it.
By:
p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y
When: 02 Sep 12 21:14
Ridgewood Pearl


Irish 100
Coronation Stakes
Moulin
Breeders Cup Mile
By:
richters
When: 02 Sep 12 21:15
wmfb you have lost the complete run of yourself tonight with this moronic statement......
By:
Ozymandius
When: 02 Sep 12 21:17
Hugely liked and respected.  Form is temporary, class is permanent and he has it imo.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 21:21
I certainly am not saying that John Oxx can't train. I just feel he has underperformed compared to fellow Aga Khan trainer, many will argue he has not go great stock compared to France but I have yet to see a donkey pedigree in that yard and he has simply produced nothing of note in many a year.

Plenty of people will harp back to the olds days and fair enough History has to be respected but only a fool doesn't learn from the mistakes of History and the jury is out and which way this yard is going?
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 02 Sep 12 21:29
History shows he had all the Aga Khans good horses for a decade when he was boycotting England and he produced nothing.Any Trainer who had around 160 of the best bred horses in the world in his yard would expect to train Group winners for fun,the fact is Oxx did not know what was going on in his yard during this time which is why he kept winning with outsiders including a few fourth strings ridden by Dermot Hogan.
By:
Newmanix
When: 02 Sep 12 21:30
Wmfb, which Irish flat trainers do you admire?
By:
p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y
When: 02 Sep 12 21:31
wildmanfromborneo 02 Sep 12 21:29 
History shows he had all the Aga Khans good horses for a decade when he was boycotting England and he produced nothing.Any Trainer who had around 160 of the best bred horses in the world in his yard would expect to train Group winners for fun,the fact is Oxx did not know what was going on in his yard during this time which is why he kept winning with outsiders including a few fourth strings ridden by Dermot Hogan.



so by that theory Aidan O Brien hasn't a bloody clue what he's doing??
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 21:33
Dermot Hogan was given one winner a year to keep him happy and the same horse was typically punted by those in the know.

If you are going to go down that route AOB must be clueless as David McCabe rides a few maiden winners every year. He had him up on the group class Astrology last year to win at 14/1.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 02 Sep 12 21:34
Aidan OBrien
Dermot Weld
and a host of small trainers who started with nothing and built up their strings through skill and hard work.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 21:35
But premier the big difference and there is no comparsion to the quality of bloodstock that APOB has but he produces results every year,EVERY!. People judge AOB by different standards to any trainer on the planet.

Look at Stoutey in England there are nearly ready to put him in the box already but it seems in Ireland we seem to give certain trainers a pass.
By:
p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y
When: 02 Sep 12 21:36
John Oxx win with his supposed 2nd, 3rd or 4th string he is clueless

Aidan O Brien wins with his supposed 2nd, 3rd or 4th string and he is a genius



I'm sure most sane people can see that does not really add up Confused
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 02 Sep 12 21:38
A big difference is Aidan OBrien always knew his good ones,Oxx didnt,I never remember Aidan OBrien winning with a fourth string.Oxx couldn't handle the bigger string and didn't train half them,Aidan OBrien trains the whole string and trains them for specific days which is why he is the greatest trainer in the world.
By:
Rocketfingers
When: 02 Sep 12 21:38
His royal Highness the Aga khan may have something to say about your comments Wildmanfromborneo. Oxx is my fav trainer i remember being at Uni in the UK saving up every penny i had for a full month to have it on a runner of his named Sinndar in the Irish derby. I flew into Ireland and went to the Curragh and unleasehed the lot £400 or £500 sterling Cool and the Northern bookmaker tried to pay me in Euro after Laugh

He's a quality trainer if you ever see him with a runner in France or England i always think it's worth noting, he's actually the best Irish trainer there is, would love to have a jar with the man one day and pick his brains.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 21:39
Ruby you don't forget how to train. You seem to be a bit shortsighted and this is coming from someone who is probably younger than you.

The Aga Khan families aren't as fresh as they once were and are lacking the main stallion influences prevalent in most of the current champions. If Oxx was training in France with the horses he has now he'd have many more winners. It's just so tough to compete here with the likes of Coolmore.
By:
Newmanix
When: 02 Sep 12 21:39
I have to have a s**** to myself when you say AOB, sorry.  I like your posts but the amount of negativity you type regarding AOB, yet you admire him now makes me amused.  I like Oxx and he is a very shrewd and class trainer that is open minded, and wanting to improve his stable, atm he is trying to recruit new minds, and money to help his operation.
By:
Newmanix
When: 02 Sep 12 21:40
s n i g g er
By:
mitch leary
When: 02 Sep 12 21:41
sinndar - ONLY horse EVER to win derby,irish derby and arc in same season
sea the stars -ONLY horse EVER to win 2000 guineas,derby and arc in same season.
not to mention alamshar azamour ridgewood pearl timarida enzeli ebadiyla winona namid
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 02 Sep 12 21:43
Newmanix I am a long time defender of Aidan OBrien here just ask Silvergreaser.
No one is denying he trained champions but my contention is when he had almost sole possession of the Aga Khans horses his record was abysmal.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 21:45
While I am prob a bit shortsighted Allduck, I have seen nothing in recent years that suggests a change in fortunes are coming.

I remember he did a interview with Gary O Brien when STS was around and says its really tough for him to compete and here he has arguably the 2nd best stable full of bloodstock in the country. Made my blood boil to be honest.
By:
mitch leary
When: 02 Sep 12 21:47
the difference between oxx and o brien is that all oxxs
By:
mitch leary
When: 02 Sep 12 21:47
the difference between oxx and o brien is that all oxxs
By:
mitch leary
When: 02 Sep 12 21:51
sorry all oxxs aga horses are home breds with stout pedigrees.
coolmore purchase a lot of stock.
a lot of the oxx horses are sold on but you rarely see them go to a trainer that improves them or does any better than oxx did or would have done with them.
there should be no argument whatsoever.the man is one of the all time greats in my book.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 21:56
Is it really the 2nd best stable full of bloodstock? Given that the most expensive outside stallion they use is either Shamardal or Invincible Spirit I find that a highly dubious statement. I would venture to suggest that Weld has stronger pedigrees over here and then you have the likes of Juddmonte, Darley and all the other major breeders in England and France. I read most of the Flat stable tours at the start of the year for the new 2yo's and Cecil and Gosden had horses with pages to die for this year.  Likes of Haggas and Roger Charlton and all those similiar trainers with good commercial pages. Plenty of Galileo's, Dansili's etc. While Oxx undoubtedly has well bred horses they aren't nearly as current as the likes of the aforementioned trainers.

If you looked beyond your prejudices and analysed the pedigrees I think you would change your tune.
By:
mitch leary
When: 02 Sep 12 21:59
spot on duck
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 02 Sep 12 22:00
Allducknodinner go back to the ten years from 1990 when he had the best bred horses in the world in his stables and look at what he won,he appears a pleasant and decent man but in no way can be mentioned in the same breath as some of the great Irish trainers of the past.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 22:06
Wildman Oxx had about six or seven individual group one winners in the 90's, several of whom were multiple winners at that grade and they have already been mentioned on this thread.

Coolmore are breeding third generation horses which date from the mares they started the Ballydoyle project with to some of the best stallions in the world and still feel the need to spend millions every year buying outside stock. Financial clout rules the Flat world and Oxx simply  doesn't have it in comparison with some of his compatriots in the training ranks.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 22:11
Allduck I am dealing on facts and the facts are the following from Aga Khan's Group 1 winners

Shareta(Sindar)
Bayrir(Medician)
Valyra(Azamour)
Sarafina(Refuse to Bend)
Shimraan (Rainbow Quest)
Behkabad (Cape Cross)
Daryakana(Selkirk)
Rosanara(Sindarr)
Zarkava(Zamindar)
Shalanaya (Lomitas)

Sagawara is the only Group 1 winner in the last 3 years that is Sharamadal hardly a proven European Group 1 winning sire. That is a list of the most unsexy stallions operating today. My case is you blame the Bloodstock all you want but I see more Coolmore sires in Oxx's bunch than any of the French trainers. So what is the excuse???...you say I am dealing with prejudices and I say your looking through Rose tinted glasses.

I am not saying that Oxx has better stables than Gosden or Cecil but don't play the pauper with me. Half of Welds stable are dual purpose Jumpers FFS!
By:
GANT007
When: 02 Sep 12 22:18
Mick Halford must be an awful trainer going on what you are saying.......he gets 30 from the Aga Khan and struggles to win the odd maiden.
The aga khans horses mature with age and make good nh horses.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 22:26
Ruby all those horses from what I can see have been successful at what the Aga Khan families are known for i.e. middle distance racing on soft ground. It's a lot easier when they are competing over in France against, for the most, lesser opposition in the plethora of Group Ones which form the French older horses pattern. Zarkava and Sarafina were exceptional mares and Shareta is good but the rest as far as I can remember won largely soft touches and were shown up in the premier races. Behkabad couldn't even beat Dangerous Midge for example. If most of them had to compete in Ireland and England they wouldn't be Group One winners.

As for the Coolmore sires of Oxx horses I only know of second rate sires such as Oratorio. Bit different than using Galileo I think you'll agree.

I have already said they are well bred horses but I believe you are patently wrong in your assertion that he has the 2nd best stable of pedigrees in Europe and is probably a considerable way behind several top trainers. As for the Weld quip that is also quite obviously wrong.
By:
rubyisgodinthesaddle
When: 02 Sep 12 22:36
Massiyn and could Mizani are nice flag bearers for the Halford Stable. Give Halford a chance.

Allduck if I have given the impression that I said he has the second best stable in Europe I must state that I do not believe that and I accept all your claims. What I do say is that he has the 2nd best stable in Ireland. I accept all of your points but I could easily counter and say, Irish Group 1 are less competitive than France and we always run for the large part on terrible Flat racing ground.


Certainly do not want to come across that I have it in for Oxx as you have to respect a man with his CV but I feel he is being left behind Weld and Bolger and even Watchman these days and in reality a John Oxx stable that is not churning out proper horses year in year out leaves the whole game in Ireland lacking something. I love nothing more than to cheer a Aga Khan Classic winner at the Curragh once again. I not so sure I will and if I do its more than likely coming from France.
By:
GANT007
When: 02 Sep 12 22:48
Maybe the Aga Khan will read this and send Oxx some of the good ones next year........No point dodging Ballydoyle all the time and taking the soft option in France.
By:
Allduckornodinner
When: 02 Sep 12 22:50
Sorry I misread thinking you said Europe rather than Ireland. Even so I would suggest Weld has a stable of more commercial horses than Oxx with three major breeding suppliers (Moyglare. Juddmonte and Darley) plus expensive yearlings every year bought by the likes of Lambe and his American owners.

Given the success of Irish and European horses in French Group races at all levels (for example the regular plundering of provincial listed races by middle of the road English horses) I would humbly suggest that races are easier won over there. It's obviously not a cut and dried argument but I think the evidence is there to back my claims.

Breeding runs in cycles and it is a legitimate point that Oxx makes that it is tough to compete against the big spenders. As as aside even though he is having a poor year by his standards (and I don't place too much faith in stats) Oxx still has a higher strike rate than AOB, Weld and Bolger which says something about his race planning skills doesn't it Wildman?
By:
GANT007
When: 02 Sep 12 22:54
I reckon he will slash numbers in Ireland........His daughter is calling the shots and she is based in France.
By:
Rocketfingers
When: 02 Sep 12 23:42
I think HRH had some health scares, could well cut back according to my sources.
By:
wildmanfromborneo
When: 04 Sep 12 12:28
I like this forum and think there are some top notch posters here but every now and again this place disappoints you,this thread is one of them.Plenty of good contributions but some so inaccurate it is hard to credit,Newmanix who normally is sound seems to think I am normally negative towards Aidan OBrien,how he could get that impression is a mystery.
Rocketfingers latest claim that not only is he presumably an Oxford graduate but was paid to be so,when he returned by plane naturally his large sterling bet caused confusion with a Northern bookie over the currency,we know it is a lie but for the lie to be believable it should be a Southern bookie,neatly slotted in is yet another lie about his age,a cursory reading of his witterings would tell you he is far older than that.
Finally Allduckornodinner who is one of the top notch posters seems to have got the Rocketfingers disease and claims to be younger than Rubyisgodinthesaddle when every line he writes would suggest otherwise.
By:
youresomean
When: 04 Sep 12 13:07
rocketfingers is probably suffering from a memory lapse. Sinndar won the Irish Derby in 1990 and the Euro banknotes were introduced in 2002. Unless I am suffering from a memory lapse or did not understand his post.
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