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Any one making it pay long term on Irish Forum??
Any one making it pay long term on Irish Forum??
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Rover there was no tax in betting shops in the noughties and no tax on the racecourses either.
Wildman, in 1985 the rate for in-shop betting tax was cut from 20% to 10%. Between the years 1999 and 2006, the government reduced betting duty from 10% to 5% to 2% and finally to 1%. It remains at 1% today. |
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You are wrong there WMFB, the Limerick man was a bookie before. Just to let you know
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yep the limk man was bookie and so was part 2 of the youghal gang and if im right bout the small cork farmer his a bookie 2
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Rover i accept what you say but the bookie absorbs that 1% so not paid by punter,no tax on course at all since well before the Euro.
McKenna,i would have lost money there i only remember him as a bookies clerk and personally never saw him stand. Jadesdilemma the man you mention would be a big Golden Vale farmer not the same. |
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Jeez chr1st WMFB are you still at this. Sweeping statements all over the place with no back-up, "income is income and subject to tax". WRONG AGAIN! Not all income is subject to tax -FACT. (You obviously have not done much in the way of tax returns). In depends on the nature of the income, as outlined by Revenue - FACT. They EXPLICITLY state income from gambling is EXEMPT from tax - FACT.
As I stated before you can't have secret taxes!! More yarns about blokes you know and store is no consequence. As requested before please refer us to Revenue's information on income/capital acquisition - this is the only thing that matters. Yarns and stories are completely meaningless. Off now to earn some tax-free income on Cricket and NFL  |
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thats him could tell u few good stories bout his time in the factory sum character that fella
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Wildman, I'm not going to explain it as I'm off to bed. I'd say you like an argument but logic isn't your strongest quality. Night.
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:D
Wildclown getting hammered from pillar to post he's punch drunk as he sits at his computer  |
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he doesnt half spout shyte
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Wallflower there is a fortune to be made for you explaining this income that is not taxable,set yourself up as a tax consultant and for you to state they explicitly say income from gambling is exempt from tax is wrong.Contact J.P.McManus and explain all this tax free income he could have,you will be on the payroll in double jigtime,he would no longer have to pretend to be in Switzerland and wouldn`t be suffering the snide remarks.
Rover i don`t believe your friend rang the revenue and the facts of your story are wrong because they are not true that is the reason you will not explain. Jadesdilemma is factory a euphemism for jail? |
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Wildclown let it go you're the only one that does not get it
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Drinks break in the cricket
WMFB - See below - From Revenue site - "capital gains" I meant before, not "capital acquistion" (slip of the keyboard, a live issue for me right now where I am not faring too well with our Revenue friends  ).Now, I can't see where I'm going to make a fortune peddling information that is freely available. You accuse others of missing the point, but since you clearly are, I'll try this for the last time. Any taxes levied by the government on a person or company must outline the rates and thresholds applied. But there are none specified for gambling income. Why might that be? Yes, you've guessed it - because there aren't any. No fee is required. But you know what, I'd nearly pay you if you'd just shut-up and stop going on about this; ruining the point of the original thread with off-topic ill-informed hearsay. I'm busy, and not goinng to waste any more time on this this evening. Are any Capital Gains exempt from CGT? Gains on the disposal of some assets are specifically exempted from CGT. These include: Gains on the disposal of property owned by you (house, apartment, etc.) which was occupied by you or by a dependent relative as a sole or main residence. Restrictions may apply where the property was not fully occupied as a main residence throughout the period of ownership or where the sale price reflects development value. >Gains from betting, lotteries, sweepstakes, bonuses payable under the National Instalments Savings Scheme and Prize Bond winnings >Gains on Government Loans and Debentures issued by certain Semi-state bodies >Gains on disposal of wasting chattels (e.g. animals, private motor cars, etc.) >Gains on Life Assurance policies (unless purchased from another person or taken out with certain foreign insurers on or after 20 May 1993) >Gains made by individuals on tangible moveable property where the consideration does not exceed €2,540 |
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We go back as far as 1925 to find the only settled case that dealt with the activities of a professional gambler constituted a trade. The case was Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309
Up to very recently, the UK HMRC have upheld this judgement and specifically state that "The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade". This is stated in their Manual on their website - Link below http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM22017.htm I am unaware of any case which has reversed this decision at present, but there could be some in the pipeline that have not been decided as of yet. Most Irish Case Law is similar to UK case law, although there have been some differences. There has been no Irish case on this matter, so at present the 1925 decision stands. Regarding Spread Betting winnings, the paragraphs from the Taxing Financial Transactions Book (last edition 2010) can be useful - This states that spread betting winnings are not taxable receipts. Spread Betting 4.11.1 Outline of the transaction Spread betting is a derivative product that is a relatively recent innovation. It involves betting on the direction of a financial instrument, e.g. a share, currency or stock market index. It does not involve the actual purchasing or disposing of that underlying instrument but instead staking an amount that the instrument will move in an upwards or downwards direction. Since there is no significant capital outlay at the outset of the transaction the risks of losses is significant as the financial instrument may easily move in the direction opposite to that taken by the investor. Spread betting has been seen as the futures market for the retail investor. 4.11.2 Taxation treatment Spread betting is not regarded as the provision of a financial service. It is operated under a bookmakers licence and therefore the tax legislation applying to betting transactions applies. Current Revenue practice dictates that the provision of spread betting is chargeable as Schedule D Case 1 as the trade of bookmaking. Spread betting itself is subject to betting duty and providers must register as bookmakers and obtain a bookmakers licence from Revenue. The tax treatment is governed by the provisions of the Consolidated Betting Duty Legislation that is contained in Part 2 Chapter 1 Finance Act 2002 and the Betting Duty Regulations 2002 (S.I. 174/2002). S67(2)(b) Finance Act 2002 imposes betting duty at the rate of 2% on the unit stake on all spread betting contracts. The bookmaker can elect to pay the betting duty on behalf of the punter but no Case 1 deduction will be allowed for this. S613 TCA 1997 provides that winnings from betting shall not be chargeable gains. The reason that financial spread betting is treated as a non-taxable receipt is because of the difference between gambling and speculating. In Townsend (IOT) v Grundy [1933] 18 TC 140 a manufacturer of farm machinery also started to deal in cotton futures. The question arose whether these were gambling profits or taxable under Schedule D Case IV. Reliance was placed on the Cooper v Stubbs case [1925] 10 TC 29. It was decided that there is a difference between gambling and speculation. Speculating involves real transactions being entered into. These transactions give rise to contractual rights and are not mere bets. Rowlatt J in Graham v Green [1925] 9 TC 309 is the authority for the proposition that a bet is “merely an irrational agreement that one person should pay another person on the happening of some event”. It will be interesting to see how long this accepted practice remains. The Irish revenue simply cannot impose a tax on betting winnings at present, irrespective of how frequent and successful the transactions are. This has to be decided in court so that tax law can change on the matter. Wildman - I would refer you to the 1936 case of the Inland Revenue Commissioners v Duke of Westminister for some light reading as it provides a solid background tpo how many tax cases are decided. |
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Thank you Mr Flower, and in particular to Mr.View - a most definitive, illuminating and well-presented contribution - greatly enhancing the level of debate on this issue.
Mr Borneo would you care to either counter the above, or accept the arguments and facts presented? (Mind you, I would have assumed that you would be pleased with the information received). If you do choose to counter then I must caution that rumour, tittle-tattle, hearsay or unsubstantiated opinion will be inadmissable, as it doesn't progress us towards resolution and could even adversely effect your standing among the Irish Sports Forum community  .The floor is yours, but time will be given if you wish to avail of Mr. View's invitation to examine 1936 case of the Inland Revenue Commissioners v Duke of Westminister. |
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| Topic/replies: 2,442 | Blogger: db1974's blog
There is no tax on our statute books where losses cannot be offset against gains from the same trade so there is no way a tax on winnings will be introduced without allowing tax relief on losses as well. While I appreciate that the govt can indeed legislate whatever they like, it's not going to happen in practice db1974 ..I think we are at cross purposes. Gambling winnings can continue to be exempt from income tax so the profits and losses calculation from same trade is not necessary. The government could however effectively tax winnings with an indirect VAT type tax. The argument would be about the location/tax point of the commission transaction ie Does the tax point arise in the country of sport where bet takes place ( aussie wallet model ?), location of the bettor or location of facilitator (betfair registered office etc) . |
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As senior counsel for Mr Borneo we wish to change our plea to guilty.
Judge Paris looking down his glasses "Mr Borneo your defence was obtuse irrational stubborn and indeed tetchy,the damning evidence of among others DB1974 Distant View and Wallflower left you with no alternative but to plead guilty" a muffled shout of i meant income tax went round the courtroom,Judge Paris glowered "if the word income tax is mentioned again i shall double your sentence which at the moment is a 250 pound fine to be paid to the I.J.F. and a period of suspension from the forum,the length of your suspension to be decided by DB1974 Distant View and Wallflower it will be a mean of their three figures[life would be a bit severe] you are allowed some questions" A contrite and stooped Borneo shuffles forward and in a barely audible rasp asks "Do professional gamblers have to make income tax returns Can they plead part earnings for a small business,pay tax on that,retain the other part as gambling and so tax exempt" |
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Borneo, I live in the UK so the details may be different. I do not fill out a tax return, each year I tell the tax authorities the truth, that I earn money from betting and have zero taxable income. Each year they tell me that I have no tax liability as is the case. Is this different in Ireland ?
Can self employed people lie about their earnings? Welcome to the real world. |
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The Bertie situation is a little different. Why did the Revenue not open a case on him in relation to gifts received, gambling winnings etc? Limitations on enquiries are not applicable when suspected fraud has been committed - I am not commenting here on whether it was or not, but if it was a full audit should be carried out. There would be large sums of unpaid CAT with interest and penalties accruing over a number of years.
With regard to income from gambling, as it is exempt, I am pretty sure it does not have to be included on any return as there is not a spot for it. However Revenue could still launch an investigation into your affairs and you would need to be in possession of accurate records to substantiate claims that the income you have earned and the lifestyle that have enjoyed has resulted from exempt income. |
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Baz thanks for the reply i am astounded at that but completely accept what you say,here you can be fined for not making a return but having been so wrong say that with no confidence.
As for lying on tax forms,don`t we all? |
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Distant View thanks for your detailed and reasoned responses and your gratis advice,would a professional punter without other income have to make a return or is he exempt from that also.
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Borneo, I can promise you that I am 100% honest and correct re the UK, I know a minimum of 20 people very well who are in the same position (ex work colleagues). I spoke to a lad from the tax office at the end of tax year 2010/11, who just said 'yes a lot of people are doing that these days'. Again I am not certain that the same scenario is applicable in Ireland but surely Irish gamblers could just move to the UK if they were making it pay and were likely to face a tax bill?
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Wildman, you posted this earlier in this thread :
U.K. and Ireland charge income tax on your winnings if you are a professional,........ You was wrong. Whoda thunk it ?? |
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Wildman,
The tax acts say the following with regard to the obligation to file a return with respect of income tax; "Every chargeable person shall as respects a chargeable period prepare and deliver to the Collector-General on or before the specified return date for the chargeable period a return in the prescribed form...." Chargeable person is defined for these purposes below; “chargeable person” means, as respects a chargeable period, a person who is chargeable to tax for that period, whether on that person’s own account or on account of some other person but, as respects income tax In this case, the professional punter without other sources of income would not be required to file a return. If there are other sources of income, irrespective of how small, then they would be obliged to file a return, even if the tax credits would more than cover any income earned. This is all based on self-assessment and the onus is on the person concerned. |
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Reb,not only wrong but spectacularly wrong and not for the first time.
One thing the great sport of racing teaches us is you will be wrong more often than right. Distant View thanks again for the detailed response again, even i am getting it now,wish i knew then what i know now and can`t wait to share my new found knowledge with interested third parties. |
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One thing the great sport of racing teaches us is you will be wrong more often than right
I thought one of the main points of this thread was that it doesn't teach all of us that lesson. |
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Tunnel vision is wmfb greatest punting flaw.
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Wildclown really getting torn to shreds in this thread, it's taking him 3 more pages to accept he was wrong.
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Marginally ahead of his arrogance....Knowledge is power but not if ur a spoofer!!
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On behalf of the plaintiffs in this case I would like to make a plea to Judge Paris of leniency in the case of Mr.Borneo - his contention that we are often more wrong than right has struck a chord with members of the community
. He without sin.....and all that...While quite sure of our initial position we too have also learned more about the intricacies and implications of this case and would recommend Mr.Borneo perhaps make a small gesture to a charity of his choice and receives no custodial sentence or financial penalty, with full forum participation rights obviously remaining in place . |
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he has no bother insulting people on his ignorant tirades though!!..not a good trait imo..
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Some people obviously hate this thread,i like it.I accept it moved off point but so does conversation.A discussion takes place on tax,entrenched views expressed by myself,detailed responses by among others DB1974,Wallflower and Distant View,myself getting sidetracked by income tax,a humorous post from Wallflower and a brilliant forensic post from Distant View brings the realisation that they were right and i was wrong,end result i was educated and they never charged me a bob.
Its one of the reasons i love this forum,you can learn so much.There are great posters here,there are also some negative sniping posters but such is life. |
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good thread that has brought out a few of the sharp lads imo, just shows a fella doesn't have t o be paying for Westlaw to cite things that are relevant as well, a grand read and an educational one for anyone lucky enough, I'll say it to Mr Wilmott if i ever pass him
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I completely given up Internet Betting had no discipline. My Discipline is very very good now and good Discipline means I can MAKE IT PAY. I still use the Internet only to lay off but have little in my account these days.
Discipline gentleman is everything!! and backing people like Tiger Woods with BOTTLE us Humans could only dream of. |
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How do you punt without recourse to the internet to bet rather than lay off?
There are numerous bookmakers who do not have a retail presence and very often are best price about a particular horse, golfer, football team etc. It is absolutely critical that you take the best price about everything that you bet on. |
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I look at the prices online DV and I just go to a shop. If i feel i have made a terrible judgement I will lay off what ever is in my account on bf but have no other accounts anymore.
I don't believe in price, i just believe in discipline. Discipline i key in life and for me is the 100% thing for me too keep reminding myself. Its easy to win but even easier to lose. |
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There are many keys to success and what works for one may not work for another.The best racing judge I know is not a successful punter because of his inability to control himself on a poor day.There are many disiplined punters out there but they lack the necessary skills required to spot the value on a consistent basis.The rare combination of discipline and judgement is in my opinion what is necessary for success in the long term.
However I find it hard to believe that someone who is not price conscious can succeed long term. |
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Value and discipline the key factors .
If you always back value you can trade it if you want with a win/ lose guarantee of profit . Each way in selected races very often the value . Discipline identifies the markets where you have a chance ( never look at the 22 runner upside downers myself where its 8/1 the field )--thats where the bookies make profit . And in the last analysis "no odds justify a bad risk " . Old saying , validity not changed in time though . |
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ruby you were making great sense til you said price dont matter to you..price is every thing..if you are backing heads every time in a toss at 5/4 you will win..i know lots of punters who are glad to just back a winner even if the price is gone..my first concern when having a bet is to get on at the best price..if you do you have a great chance..
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IS THERE a case for backing just in markets close to 100%, like football , tennis cricket, most horse races ar 125 ish...
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