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Irish Ring in December...
Irish Ring in December...
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the best days craic i had on a racecourse lately was arlington 28 c constant sunny some time in june 4 $ admission and cant say i missed the bukes....what can i say... its the truth
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this jimeen guy seems to know what his talking about
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Spurs , the admission costs are much higher locally than abroad generally . I went to a meeting in Australia , admission about 2 euros which included a comprehensive racecard which covered every race in Australia that day including the meeting I was at . There were bookies there as well as the TAB , but the bookies margins were pretty generous , easy as the TAB is not noted for being competitive .
Also visited Sha Tin in Hong Kong , no idea on admission costs , but I was told it was not excessive . Tote deductions there are quite a lot , monopoly conditions . Facilities are excellent in most race tracks abroad , but I would miss the cut and thrust betting wise which until the last 10 years or so was a big feature of the Irish racing scene . Unfortunately that element has largely disappeared , it certainly has in UK where every bookie has exactly the same price and no-one steps out of line , except when they are returning the SP's . |
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While Betfair is a primary reason that the on-course game is dead (note- dead not dying,) there are many secondary reasons also. The off-course bookmakers in Ireland are too competitive for the middle of the road (50-500) punter to contemplate going racing. Although in probability it only happens 4-5 times a year,double-result is a boon. Getting money back periodically on losers,fallers, horses finishing 2nd to fav etc gradually weakens the resolve of punters getting into their cars to arrive at an overpriced museum.Drink-driving laws an added straw for the camels back plus the 'joy' of a dining experience unique to racecourses. There are still upsides to going racing but fresh air, the thoroughbred in the flesh and watching 'baldy' and 'lucky' eating an amount of food that would keep a small country going,aren't that difficult to outweigh!
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it would take a fair bit of food to keep you going winston
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hey cooldine,i'd say you'd eat more food than baldy,lucky and winston put together...
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not hope donegal i treat my body like the temple that it is
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in all fairness Cooldine, the only temple ive ever seen you worship in is McDonalds in Leixslip.
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wheres leixlip
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How about this for a scenario.
No on course bookmakers. As an earlier poster said Betfair and other Exchanges big screens everywhere. The nanny as before. Consoles everywhere as well as tables, plugs etc and all the things necessary to punt online. A great day could still be had at the races by all, the channce to meet friends, go to parade ring, dine, maybe a jar during or after. Nothing at all wrong with that in my view. I stopped going racing the day I realised I was naked when the battery ran out on my laptop. I'd be back tomorrow if tracks were made computer and technologically friendly. The Greyhound board will see it first just as they saw the value in entertainment in terms of meals etc for customers. |
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Top Man in Bord na Gone for a while now............ 'me fein'ers gone !
Changes are already there to be seen ! Already all there in Dundalk !!! ......Casino WILL be the next addition there too ;) |
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Have my doubts about the ring being dead though it has been dieing for some time now. The betting industry will have to endure a hike in betting tax in the near future. This hike will probably impact the on-line, exchange business. Any tax imposition will no doubt be passed on to the punter while I'd guess on-course betting will escape any additional tax due to its current state. Exchanges and on line betting will become less attractive and profitable due to increased costs for serious punters and they may return to the ring where business pays cash and no audit trail exists. Time reveals all!
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I realise this forum has been akin to a human on a life support machine for some time. In an attempt to give it some pulse I think resuscitating this old thread in the hope that it may stir some debate.
The subject matter, the betting ring in Ireland and the general betting market in the country. The thread discussed the state of play 7 years ago and on page 2 Jimeen's bullet points certainly played out. Save for the odd festival, bookmaking is now a waste of time on track, there is hardly one decent regular punter left on track midweek and most pitches are worthless. Matters have become even more dire since the inception of the dreaded slaves, creating a false impression of some of choice. Last week nestled amongst the HRI figures was the worrying loss of turnover in the ring. I know many will have little sympathy for some in the bookmaking ranks, that said I would have plenty of time for many, who are in reality free marketeers. On the high street, the 3 major chains over a period between 2000-2010 managed to undercut the independents with specials, and now most indies are gone and with the big players dominating, specials are at a minimum. Punters lost long term due to the current lack of competition and it may only get worse. Could a similar scenario be developing in the ring?. Turnover is now so poor at points that the tax men are no longer required with that levy ditched....are we heading that way with for example mid week track meetings? Contributors on this thread back in 2009 included some very clued in ring masters, some of whom may no longer drop into the forum. Perhaps a few may cast an opinion on where we are now 7 odd years later and what if any the future holds. It is difficult to pinpoint an individual item which is responsible for the slow death of the betting ring, and therefore trying to bring it back to life outside the odd festival or big day is no easy task. A healthy betting rings was once one of the charms of attending a fixture. The question to books/former books such as Jimeen and friends? Is the dye cast and matters are going to continue to deteriorate to the stage that we may nationally get a Dundalk style ring, with a few arbers, a handful of slave operations and then PP and Lads reps dominating the sp for their high street concerns. Or is there a path that can be taken to revive the ring? My major fear long term, is that the younger punters have been nurtured by the high street chains on sports betting and diverted away from horse racing, the effect in the long run is that with natural human depreciation, the older horse racing stock will not be replaced, and the days of plenty of monkey and grand punters playing on track may be finished. Can the Irish betting ring be saved????? |
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There are similarities between this thread and the Irish betting ring.
Seven years on and some changes in posters and bookies. How many that stood in Thurles seven years ago will be standing today. Mind you the same could apply to puntrs |
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I doubt if Joe Donnelly was standing seven years ago but his horse will win today.
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Keen Leader,it can be hard to get a bet on at the track, my bets are usually 200 max 300 I might go 400 in an exceptional case , yet at a meeting in Naas last year I was refused a 100e bet by a bookie, the same one who will be telling the press about the decline in betting. I find myself punting with a smaller circle of bookies, usually Bads reps, Mulvanny,Finigan,Power. Talking about 7yrs ago, I had a 300e bet with a bookie @ Punchestown Festival and had too wait for over a hour to get paid , so it was happening even then , said bookie is no longer standing I might add.
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The effort and the means the Racing fraternity, (trainers, jocks, owners) would have to go to entice younger sports punters to take an interest in the game is the antithesis of their MO.
The second in the Melbourne Cup is running at the weekend in Ireland's richest handicap hurdle. That should be attracting mainstream sporting media attention, instead nobody is sure whether it is just a sighter for the County Hurdle. It isn't in the interests of people within the sport to be forthcoming with information to promote racing. I would say that is due to the handicap system, but you also see the fog over where horses like Annie power will run. In short, racing is eating itself and doesn't deserve any more than it gets as it makes no effort to promote itself. I remember someone talking about Ryan Moore and his manner, that it doesn't matter, he's a great jockey. It might not matter for Moore, but think of the extra revenue that would come into the sport if people like him made more of an effort; and he should be thinking about the jock sitting down from him in the weighing room on a Monday night in Windsor. The above people are completely delusional, they're a lefty led coalition government from being put on their asses. |
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The evolution of the betting landscape and giant leaps in technology have brought about the death of the irish/english ring. Its painful for those bookmakers who invested in pitches who didnt get out in time and sad for punters as the buzz of going racing and betting in a vibrant lively ring was addictive. Theres a million ways to bet now without even getting outta bed and you can watch all the action live on big screen in your home. Nothing stays the same in any walk of life and the betting ring is the primary casualty of the multitude of options available to punters now.
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I don't think there is anyone born from, say, 1980 that recalls what are referred to of the halcyon days in the ring when Sean Graham knew you by nickname, Terry Rogers was as unpleasant as he could possibly be and if a bookie ever said "thank you" it was a shock to the system. The lines to be paid waited patiently and got a sour puss as they arrived at the satchel. As a very young punter I was always struck by them asking "how much?" and assumed if you somehow made a mistake with the amount, that's all you'd be paid.
One of the features in these years was the "move" when clerks, punters and runners all went scurrying in a hundred directions, the prices were wiped and we now knew that O'Grady's in the bumper or maiden hurdle was "off". Technology changed all that and there's no way back. It will make the tracks soulless - most already are - and you would question your sanity trying to have a deuce on anything if you had missed a morning price or you knew there was a greater price available 15 seconds away on Betfair. It simply makes no sense to bet in the ring any longer. It would take impossible legislation to change the landscape and yet the Tote is absolutely no alternative on course. I only go racing now in company, with a nominated driver and any punting is done beforehand and everything is recorded for another day. There will be a handful of on-course market-makers that can easily manipulate SP unless wholesale change occurs with off-course operations. The irony is that most tracks don't really care that there is no betting because they snaffle all the TV rights to the detriment of the game and it makes them not having to worry and therefore without an innovative thought in their body. Bookmakers probably don't care with only a reputed 25% (probably more?) of all gambling associated with racing and yet Irish Racing derives 100% of the benefit. Not hard to see the illogicalities in all of this. What fascinates me today is: how do gambling yards, stables or individuals get their money on as its hardly on-course? Is it one or two private behemoths (whether if Martinstown or Basel) taking on the established big four? |
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No doubt technology changed the landscape of the ring. Remember clerking for a man at tramore festival years ago. Electronic boards were in by this stage. Bookie about 2 or 3 up the line was showing off his new bit of technology. An early internet dongle. Bragging away to all that were in earshot that he had a direct connection to exchange. Remember saying to my boss something along the lines of "thats an unfair advantage, we should all have 1 of those". His, and others, reply was "never mind sure that won't catch on !!"
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What is a slave in the context of the ring ?
A decent crowd basked in the sun today in Thurles,ring seemed fairly vibrant. I enjoy betting,I particularly enjoy betting in cash when I go racing I don't use the exchanges,I'm very much in the minority. Some of the punters seem permanently betting on their phones,they missed a trick or two today as the prices were competitive. Battleford was trading at 2.04 and was freely 5/4 in the ring,could be significant that he was beat. The age profile of racegoers for midweek meetings like this one was always high. Young people are working or rearing families. Some posters here call racing soulless when its they that are soulless. If you bet like a robot crippled by rules you will never have the joy of getting " out " on a day when you were losing heavily,the joy of playing up your winnings. |
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A slave is a bookmaker who has no control of prices. You see a number of bookmakers with 2 or more pitches. One terminal controls the money taken by all outlets & prices at all outlets.
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Thanks Major,I'm still not quite following it
I have noticed this new phenomenon of bookmakers having more than one stall,one particular bookmaker had three stalls all manned by women. How can you tell which one is the slave ? What is the advantage of the slave ? Why would Keen Leader state " even more dire since the advent of the dreaded slaves " ? |
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Does the Melbourne Cup second not need a huge hike up the scale to get into County? Not too many other opportunities to get job done before mid March. Sunday surely the day? Or am I missing something?
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Phil Smith will probably rate him a stone higher than our fellow anyway.
  m |
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Apologies, you're correct oufies, I hadn't really looked at the race and thought he was rated higher than 125. He'd need to be mid-to high 130s wouldn't he?
If he ran no sort of race on Saturday, I presume Smith doesn't have it in his gift to stick 10lbs on him if he maintains the County entry, thus getting him a run. You're right, he has every incentive to be off at the weekend, even aside from the huge prize fund. Always thought he'd be a Galway Hurdle horse were they to go down this route. |
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Could be stones better than anything he has shown before Neil. Jumped really well at Galway last year. A J Martin a bit of a wizard at controlling handicap marks.Galway hurdle after the County and probably still look well treated?
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Yeah, absolutely, the way those lads can unwind it.
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He should be off alright when you think of the prize money and the bonus if he goes on and wins the coral cup.Galway is Ireland's richest handicap hurdle neill d.Hard enough to see him getting beat off 125 as long as the trip to membourne didnt leave its mark.
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Funny thread this, not many of the contributors bother any more which is a pity. Wasn't aware it had been resurrected until a friend of mine mentioned it earlier today so i'm going to give my tuppence worth on the betting ring in Ireland today.
Sadly quite a few factors have hit it really hard and made the current ring unrecognisable from what it used be. Its only a decade ago when the betting ring was at its most vibrant, and the collapse was truly remarkable in relation to both the magnitude and the speed of it. You could say almost overnight really and it was difficult for anyone to forsee it. The recession hit, the betfair took over, drink driving laws became stricter, penalty points for speeding, rising costs of fuel and racecourse admission, off course giving concessions that weren't available on course. These are some of the factors, and i am possibly missing some others which killed off attendances at Irish race meetings which ultimately killed off on course bookmaking. The bookies didnt help themselves maybe, but neither did the people that were running the sport. Then again this business was like many others which got outdated, just like pubs maybe. Who could have said that pubs and rural Ireland in particular would be in the state its in now, who could have predicted half the shops in some country towns being boarded up, or factories where people looked to have jobs for life , simply going to the wall. As regards the on course game ever being any use again, realistically it's impossible to imagine it. Surely its more likely that we will have race meetings with no bookies as opposed to a race meeting with 10's of them actually doing good business. I had to smile when someone earlier on this thread remarked that the bookies were all nice guys when they were betting to good margins and making the game pay. In other words they weren't such nice people when things weren't going swimmingly, and i could relate to that from my experiences on both sides of the fence. Personally the last 18 months i worked on course were absolute torture, both mentally and financially, and like many others i had to think long and hard about my future. The year i packed it in, i lost at every meeting i attended from early in July to the first Sunday in October. It was proof positive though that it wasn't just a bad run, and that my style of bookmaking had become completely unviable and it was now time to retire while i still could. Going racing now is no longer a pleasure and the absence of a vibrant betting ring is a huge factor , but the powers that be dont help either. Some of the decisions made are staggering, and just this month alone the absence of racing on consecutive Thursdays, the blank Bank Holiday, although today the clash of Navan with Haydock capped the lot. These kind of decisions do nobody any favours and just sour what is already a dwindling audience even further. |
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Navan and Haydock clashing,whos fault was that may I ask.If things had gone to plan and all the ENGLISH meetings had taken place today there would have been 5 mins between 3 of them.So according too you it was Navans fault, although HAYDOCK put THEIR racing back. How it effected betting on course in Ireland is baffling,maybe you'd care to explain .
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It was very poor whoevers "fault" it was WR, aw dross left alone and the two decent nh meetings clashing to the second, it was probably bha's fault as such,Ireland very rarely move off times and as it is outside their juristiction it is up to bha to work around that,they made a hames of it.
Different times from the original post,people are more consumer savvy and want as much bang for their buck and that filters through to betting as well,people won''t pay more for an identical product and hard to blame them. Surprised to see Bar One opening up new offices in Cork(Parnell Place and Evergreen Rd.) historically places where offices have done well but surely no stopping the internet. |
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The agreed plan for the three daytime meetings after abandonments was ten minute intervals. The Navan stewards so fit to ignore this request. Jimeen wasn’t specifically referencing the concourse crowd being soured I’d imagine, rather the general betting public (on and off course). I’d totally agree as it was unnecessary and left a sour taste for NH fans.
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TTK, surely it was inevitable that there would have been clashes in UK if all todays meetings had gone ahead.So how Navan have copped any blame is beyond me.
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Workrider clashing on a busy Saturday is inevitable. Clashing when there’s only three meetings on a Saturday (the sports best shop window day of the week) is unnecessary, counter productive & beyond belief. There was an agreement between the bodies to avoid clashes and the Navan stewards ignored the request. It should be borne in mind that UK tracks regularly wait for Irish races to finish. I think you are missing the point here to be honest.
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bar one are opening all over the place pa..just to share my own experience recently.i attend a good few meetings over the year but mostly festivals and ballinrobe regularly where the ring is usually vibrant.i attended the recent cork saturday meeting and it really brought it home to me how bad it has got in general for "regular" meetings.and how it really is so much easier and better value to stay at home and either play online(antisocial i know) or go to your local bookie shop. we had 2 meals in the upstairs place and really in all my life id say i never got worse it was just awful. the pp office in cork dont do bpg or the normal shop on away races.why is that i wonder? is it a pp thing beacause you got no choice?i seen lots betting on their fones.i backed a winner in england at 5/2 that spd at 3s so more reason to stay away.finally i reckoned id back a horse of harringtons in the beginners chase.it was 7/2 generally 4s in places.i went up with 150 for a 75 ew bet at 4s..the lady(one of the above mentioned slaves i guess) refused me and offered me a pony ew.i refused with shock..horse finished 4th..is this what its gone to? a day at the races used to be a very pleasurable experience..this wasnt.
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TTK, The BHA are too blame imo,there has been a cry across the water about two many meetings on Sat,the BHA don't seem to care,we are talking about ON COURSE betting and its effect on the ring, not xc racing.
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i will take the AW dross over national hunt races any day of the week, unless you are just betting for the entertainment factor, then i suppose
you get lot more for your money watching them jump the fences magnificently. and thats why i can understand people who enjoy the jumps racing and the great horses that reach the top of the pecking order, dont know why people always seem to be knocking the AW racing. it far outranks national hunt racing as a betting medium. must take forever watching replays of jumps races. |
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Workrider, it may be baffling to you how Haydock clashing with Navan could interfere with turnover in the betting ring , but certainly not to me. The on course market is led by exchanges as most people are aware so quite clearly the liquidity is going to be lighter when an Irish race clashes with a major English one. Also on course punters yesterday, had to make a decision whether they wanted to bet on either Navan or Haydock as they wouldnt have been able to watch both in comfort. Should they choose the Haydock option, then quite clearly the on course ring would suffer.
Tell the king was correct when he said you were missing the point, and you are completely in this instance. There was simply no need for a clash yesterday and its the fault of Horse Racing Ireland, not Navan racecourse and not the Navan stewards either. These kind of decisions should be made by higher powers and whether the stewards wouldnt comply or not should be irrelevant. It wasnt the Navan stewards who decided to have no racing on two consecutive Thursdays in January in the height of the Ntional hunt season even though horses are being balloted out in many races, and it wasnt the Navan stewards who decided to have no racing on a Bank Holiday. Could anyone ever rememeber a Bank holiday in Ireland that had no scheduled horse racing fixture. That was the decision that completely defied any kind of logic and just showed what a laughing stock the HRI actually are. |
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I queried why there was no racing on the Bank holiday and was told it was because no racecourse wanted it.
Has to be the first time there was no racing in Ireland on a bank holiday. I'm back to this slave business,if Kavvie tried to have a bet with a slave how did the slave have the authority to turn down the bet and then offer the miserable bet she did. |