How Much Success Has J.P. McManus Had as an Owner

why could he not mulder?

hi zankle.............btw are u going by that tag or patsy hall now????

i just think dessies looks exposed...........he was beaten a fair way from home last time and i would be disappointed if there wasn't one in there to beat him tomorrow

well when i looked at studmaster first i said hmmmmmm but the opposition looks so beatable i would have to fancy him, even though i don't like this thing of a horse trying to make it again over hurdles having had an abortive chase campaign..............at least he has had an outing over hurdles to get him back into gear.......................anyway remember when he was going well last year in big handicaps, they were always on about how he couldn't have the ground bottomless enough..........well he has it tomorrow

he just hasn't got the instant acceleration for a race like the sun alliance heather...........that's why i'm looking forward to him over fences..............whereas fundamenalist was a horse who had an awful lot of speed who stayed well too, rio bravo is much more of an old fashioned stayer who takes a lot longer to get into top gear

mm.
if you had seen his recent work you may not be thinking that. whilst he's not a sun allaince hurdle horse he could well be quicker than you think.
he has certainly surprised recently

i'm comparing him to fundamentalist...........rio bravo is no slowcoach..........it's just that he gets 3m so well but i have seen him a couple of days just take a while to hit full stride

what r u doing btw? hiding in the bushes on egertons gallops with a pair of binoculars?? lol ;-)

anyway good to hear that he is progressing well.........he is a fine stamp of a horse who looks the type to get better and better,,,,,,,,,something which i said earlier in this tread that most padge berry horses do not do............

It's pasty hall for good now, even though it's the same account.

I have the same thoughts as you about going back over hurdles after a disappointing look at fences. Studmaster is theoretically badly off at the weights, but the others aren't the most consistent. I'll be taking him but would expect to be able to get him at less than 7/4.

I think the Dessie Hughes horse has alright form and a bit of experience which will stand to him in the ground. I 'll be pretty happy to have a few quid at 6/1 tomorrow.

Best World v Giolla De is an interesting little race. At fist look I'd be with the Francis Flood gelding but consistency is an issue. Whatever happens I doubt there'll be any 2/1 Best World, and would be Giolla De each way at 4/1+.

previous owner helped that i guess-very close to padge.
Fair enough in comparison to funda. Just that when we got this lad we thought he was slow as feck but gradually showing he has a few gears. jumps proper well also including hurdles which is bonus
slkightly worried that last run showed him up - also talikng on here wont help.
keep the faith!

anyway speaking of your name sake patsy............i was ready to have a good cut on him without calainn alainn at leop the other day but i was amazed that among the throng of bookies on course there was only one bookie betting without the mare and he was offering the measly odds of 5to4..........i thought he looked a good bet but i didn't trade as thought the price was skinny enough...................just thought it was poor considering that at any point to point u will have 2 or 3 bookies betting without one

i think u r safe enough heather once u stick to the irish forum lol

so r u in egertons then??????

what about gaelic flight today.....couldn't believe it managed to complete for third.............hilarious stuff really and well done sam jones

anyway about rio bravo.....u will see a diff horse on genuine good or faster ground..........he always needed a run or two in points to hit full form as well

know connections.
seen his pt to pt wins and that shows that. whats the form of them wins like? what did/do the lads at padges think? you know how much they got for him?
sorry for the questions!

know v little about other edgy horses

Disappointing alright, 5/4 was no price either. I had a small bet e/w at 11/4. I would have gone a bit wild had I been able to get the 9/2 forecast, but I figured 11/4 was fair. He's a decent little horse and there are plenty of races to be won with him in the future. I doubt the SunAlliance will be one of those races, but stranger things have happened.

hey when it comes to horses like rio bravo i can talk all day..........

i really like the horse that rio bravo beat on his final outing at eyrecourt (officially laurencetown) - proffesor jack..............this is really putting the hex on this fellow but he shapes to me like the future winner of something like an irish national...........the way the pair jumped and travelled through the race was effortless and when it came to quickening away from the rest at the second last, they both opened up quickly

i don't know how much they got for him to be honest, as u very rarely hear these sort of things out of the berry yard

they liked him a lot when he was down there and he was only coming to full form for that win at eyrecourt.............they said he had turned inside out in the three weeks prior to the race and that he was getting stronger by the week............he was very well trained up for the day but reckoned there was plenty more to come

yeah patsy i was foaming at the mouth when i saw rp forecast .............the each way bet to nothing quote was ringing in my ears....................he is the type of horse who is only gonna get better and better.............a really likeable sort

anyway when he won his maiden at inch, joe dullea was saying that he was a bit worried before the race that the track would be a bit tight for him..........and this is a course that has three fences in the home straight lol.............they thought at that stage that he was a slow horse that stayed all day but he has done nothing but improve since then

cheers for that. interesting that he was taking his time with him. lovely type, unbelievably easy to handle. cost 100 euro which will hopefully be fair enough.
whats happened to the 2nd horse now? he run again since?
as novice season ends/starts 1st may it makes sense to get him handicapped, see what the mark is and then work from there..

sorry was that 23.25 comment re our lad. interesting. thats what we thought when we got him - 4miler!
think he may have more toe than that. def a chaser in the making but them staying hcp hurdles pretty weak if you have a fair mark to start with and jumps so well.
please keep price to yourself..ta

no professor jack hasn't run since..........he was entered into a couple of novice chases about a month ago but was first reserve both times but didn't get in...............he is obv ready to run

i think he is very smart but his trainer daniel o' sullivan is the type that won't rush him and he too could be the type that will be aimed at handicaps, although to be honest i think he is better than just a handicapper

100,000 for rio was it????
that seems fair enough considering he had such a good level of form in the book

y but please keep that under ur hat.
thanks for all your answers. lets hope he stays sound etc.
will do my best to keep you in the loop - only on here on and off - but i think you get the crux of the plan.

one last question! you know anything about a horse called Beantown?

it has been noticeable in the past couple of years the way charlie egerton has gone from being a trainer that had his horses gunned to the eyeballs to do their best running first time out to the way nowadays they seem to progress from their first run to their second etc..........freeze the flame (or is it frame lol) is a good example of this

unfortuately beantown is now well exposed to the public after his cheltenham exploits...........i was on him for a place on here at i think 16s...........plenty of other lads from the pointing community were on each way with the books

if they ever invent a 5mile race nothing will touch this fellow!!!!!

he is one of the largest horses to ever grace a point to point or racecourse - and that was a bit of the problem in points - he was just too big to be racing around courses 1mile in circuit

u just have to look at the form of his second in a hunter chase at limerick to see his potential...........the horse that beat him ballistraw was narrowly denied in the paddy power at leop (thank god as i had laced into ballistraw that morning in the bookies at 3s and he would have been beaten in another stride :-)

paul tobin probably should have made his move sooner at chelt but that's in the past

surprised he hasn't been out yet so will have to enquire around and see whether he has had a setback

he ran the feck out of that nag whilst the sun shone, i.e all the oppo were bad, before 1/2 decent ones had come out.
otherwise he seems to be very meticulous about the races the horses run in and very particular about the jocks that ride'em
Hobbs Hill ran a cracker today i thought-3 very good horses first 3.
ring the boss at catterick monday could be interesting by the way!

saw that race at limerick,.
backed him at chelt - was there - did an e/w double with kadoun.
50s and 66s..wouldnt be here now if paul had got him up!!
would be v interested to hear his plan..

i'll keep that one in mind thanks ;-)

freeze the flame is one tough bugger though...........i really like him although i have never backed him.............love horses like him that find an awful lot off the bridle..............have seen him a few days clearly going far less well than the horses around him two/three out but pulling it out in a driving finish................. i think he is the type that thrives on tough races and charlie did the right thing by keeping running him

yeah hobbs hill ran well alright........the mare that beat him is very decent.............she is another of the batch of really classy bumper mares that were knocking around britain last season

one last horse that i will be positively flabbergasted if you know anything aboiut.
Hey Bob?

an ew double with kadoun????? that would be retiring to a big villa in the south of spain sort of stuff if beantown had got up................!!!! jesus

have to say i know absolutely nothing about hey bob............a new name to me.........must not have ran (won) in points

dont remind me!
still kadoun at 66s was pretty enjoyable

thought that'd be pushing it!
All the best pointing tomorrow - admire you in this weather.

i'm sure it was!!!! the bubbly must've been on you :-)

we never forget big winners like that eh..........

have never had a 66to1 myself but do remember backing tug of peace at 25s in punchestown about 10 or 12 yrs ago when i was in secondary school............on such a high for the day lol

hey i take fits and starts about posting on here. so might not be on for a few days at a time...........if u hear anything about rio bravo send me an email.... bewleysberry@yahoo.co.uk

you're in the book.
will do so. all the best.

take it easy...........happy punting ;-)

'the trainer needs the horse'

FM, do you anything of a Bally Con? Ran (and won) on the p2p circuit last year (won up the north i believe), and now in training with Hen Knight..

Heather McGee 30 Dec 23:42


he ran the feck out of that nag whilst the sun shone, i.e all the oppo were bad, before 1/2 decent ones had come out.
otherwise he seems to be very meticulous about the races the horses run in and very particular about the jocks that ride'em
Hobbs Hill ran a cracker today i thought-3 very good horses first 3.
ring the boss at catterick monday could be interesting by the way!

Hope you were on mate

sorry for not replying sooner but was in dublin for the day.....

numerosix............i never saw bally conn in points as he ran up north and i wasn't in templemore the day he ventured down so can't really comment on his points form...........i did see his race on stephens day and thought it was a tame effort so certainly doesn't look a star to me

heather mcgee...........great shout on ring the boss........obv someone had a little word in your ear very early about this plot ;-)
thanks for the heads up on it - got almost 2s but would be interested to know what price it was this morning........well done

Yeah - was a nice touch. They've always liked him and Swiny was pretty keen having only had him 2 weeks. That kid is massively worth his claim. Very good imo.
Hope all well with you. RB pencilled in ludlow on monday

Just done his '83 NH Chase win if that interests JP fans.

J.P paid about 400k for this horse and had nearly half that on him today. Its amusing watching hype horses goin off short prices and getting beaten. I rate this horse, but if anyone other than J.P owned him then he would have been 5s today.

Arteea, I don't doubt for a minute that you know your stuff, but you just come across a little**y.... all well and good!!!

What's the background of the next horse that will run under the JP banner, and how much was originally offered??..................... ;).............and declined ;)...............and................ ;)

I'm not attempting to catch you out; in fact, you're probably one of the few on here who's opinion is worth listening to!

I should probably go out on Saturday nights, rather than wake up at 4-15am!!! :( lol

A little**y maybe, however im a realist and am just stating facts. This outfit is farcical imo.

Racing needs this 'farcical' outfit and were JP ever to stop owning racehorses it would be a disaster for racing here and in the UK.

Would it, i dont think so. Races would be alot easier to solve imo without his colours being paraded in them.

Very hard to know with JP. Some unusual efforts from the likes of Messrs Roche, Swan recently.

Perce Rock was a lovely lay at the weekend.

It would be a disaster in that JP retains more rubbish horses with small trainers than any other owner in racing. His reasoning behind this has always been 'the trainer needs the horse'. Can you imagine any other large scale owners, e.g. Michael O Leary, making a similar statement? When you consider the sheer scale of the McManus operation, and the number of trainers which he supports, it is clear to me that his leaving racing would be a disaster for the industry.

That is true Galwayman, it would be a huge blow, no doubt

It just goes to show its hard to buy success. Very rarely do you see J P bring one through from a bumper to a good horse.

I really think he should upgrade his trainers and give Noel Meade and Willie Mullins a lot more horses.

Noel Meade is the man!!!!

i think that boots madden is a master with a lot of the horses he has acquired...........plenty of them are rejects from jonjos, yet boots is able to get them to win races and what i really like about him is that when he gets a horses into form he is able to maintain that horses form for quite a long time

Wins Now the perfect example of that, won me a packet at Navan and seems to be a decent animal as well..

Some would take a more cynical view of having a horse in each of many yards.

If it were me I'd be disappointed with the lack of star performers and promising youngsters, relative to the numbers.

Disclosure - very nice horse imo
Big chance tomorrow I'd hope??

how many trainers actually benefit from a JP horse regardless of ability of horse or trainer ??
He certainly operates like a charity. As somebody posted earlier "the trainer needs the horse "

To my mind Jp is one big mystery. who knows what his reasoning is for having so many poor horses. i dont doubt theres a method to his madness all the same

he bought a good point to point last year but I've forgotten its name?

Is it Stoneville you are thinking of? He was killed in a fall at Thurles in November.

no it finished around 6th or 7th on its first bumper race

53 runners in the British Isles last week and not a winner among them!!

You'd be inclined to forgive that stat if they were all with the same trainer.

I've lost a packet in 2007 so far backing JP's.

THE FULL extent of JP McManus' philanthropic activity have been revealed for the first time this week, with documents obtained by the Limerick Leader showing that he has directed more than €17 million to charity in the last three years. And this is aside from the €31 million raised through the JP McManus Invitational Pro-Am in 2005.
Accounts seen by the Limerick Leader show that the JP McManus Charitable Foundation Limited, which has been in existence since 2000, donated a total of €10,728,275 to charities last year.

In the past three years - excluding 2009 - a total of €17.3m has been donated to charities in Limerick and across the globe through this foundation, with over j3m going directly to worthy causes in his home county.

According to the foundation's accounts, €2,459,643 was donated to charity in 2007, while €4,141,725 was received by charities in Limerick and across the world in 2006.

The two largest allocations of funds last year were to the All-Ireland Scholarship Fund (j6.3m) and the Paddy Harrington golf scholarships (j2m), which was set up in memory of the famous golfer Padraig Harrington's father, Paddy.

St Gabriel's Centre in Limerick received the next highest allocation of €312,000 for children with special needs.

This August, Mr McManus' daughter, Kilmallock resident Sue-Ann Foley, a 29-year-old business executive, was appointed a director of the company. Ms Foley's appointment was approved by the existing board members, which includes her father, mother Noreen McManus, as well as Declan Moylan, who works with Mr McManus; Labour deputy Jan O'Sullivan, solicitor Gordon Holmes and Gerry Boland, an accountant, and a director of PriceWaterhouseCoopers Services and Limerick Enterprise Network Limited.

Deputy O'Sullivan, who has been on the board since its establishment, said they have clear terms of reference in deciding who receives funding.

The board of the foundation meets several times each year, and just this week began examining 40 projects.

However, Deputy O'Sullivan said it would be reasonable to expect that donations given this year could be less than the €10.7m divided last year, due to the current climate.

She added that the board members are "distributing the money on behalf of JP McManus" and "ensure that money is being spent well, and is value for money".

The foundation's office is based at Bishopsgate, Henry Street - in the same office as Mr Holmes' legal practice.

The directors' report for the year ending December 31, 2008, showed the company had total assets of €48.5m, total losses of €17.2m, and €19m in the bank and at hand. The Foundation's funds have been lodged with AIB, EBS and the Bank of Scotland.

The accounts state that Mr McManus had advanced €600,000 by way of a loan to the company in 2003, which was still owed to Mr McManus in 2008.

Last year he donated €6m to the company, which also benefited from an investment income of €2.7m, which was up slightly from 2007.

The accounts, dating back to 2006, show that the businessman has made major contributions to life in Limerick.

In 2006 he donated €6,000 to the Gavin and Millie Fund, the two young Moyross children who were horrifically burned in a petrol bomb attack, which shocked the nation.

In the same year he donated €60,000 to the Fr Gerry Daly Christmas food appeal, and €30,000 to the Blue Box Creative Learning school in Limerick, which strives to reach out to young people in danger of dropping out of the educational system.

The foundation's mission is to provide relief from poverty and deprivation, promote training and education, provide comfort and care to the terminally ill, alleviate distress in the areas of drug addiction, human rights, sexual and physical abuse, among other objectives.


At least he's nt afraid to put his hand in his pocket! Fair play to him imo

yea fair play, his money has touched the lives of many

Even if u had ten million in ur account ud have everthing u want.

so what would u do with the other e700million.

Do you not think that, relative to his wealth, he should be giving more away? I`d like to think i would.
He does however, without doubt, deserve a lot more success with his horses. If you look at how lucky some owners are with just a smattering of beasts (Jim Lewis, Archie O`Leary and Terry Warner spring to mind) it must gall him how much he puts into finding just one star!
I sincerely hope he finds one soon before his money runs out too!

Michael O Leary pays tax in Ireland. He deserves a lot of credit for doing so as this is optional for the very wealthy. JP is entitled to organise his affairs as he does but his charitable endeavours and those of Denis O Brien ( trap etc) should have a *(without tax) beside them.

It almost amazes me when I see fellas trumping the likes of McManus and in particular O Brien who is the lowest form going IMO.
At least McManus made his own money even if most of it was on the back of stroking others.
O Brien was handed a fortune and while he deserves credit for mining it he deserves every insult for absconding without paying tax on it.
His views on the matter are quite clear. He feels he is better placed to decide how to dole out his fortune rather then thje Government of the day. That is fair enough in my view but his refusal to show his accounts just marks him down as a wrong one in my view. Let him show us how he looks after the less fortunate and then he can spout his big mouth off about paying 1/2 of the Giovannis Trapotonis's salary

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/john-p-mcmanus-auteuil-france-rock-noir-part-of-five-timer-for-mcmanus/653937/international/
Maybe this animal will get" the sundance kid" back in the big time.

Has be bought Dunguib as well now. Jeez he does want all the marbles. Does he not have enough top class hurdlers at the moment ?
Hope he leaves the horse with Fenton

I see that`s reported on the racing forum but nothing about it anywhere else. Who could blame him? Some engine.

Fenton quashes Dunguib McManus sale rumours
By Jessica Lamb12.22PM 17 NOV 2009 PHILIP FENTON on Tuesday dismissed rumours that leading owner J P McManus had bought Supreme Novices' Hurdle favourite Dunguib.


Claims were made on an internet forum that owners Daniel Harnett and Lil Lawlor had received hefty offers after Dunguib's effortless Punchestown victory on Saturday and that new connections would be revealed on Tuesday.

However, Fenton did not hesitate when questioned, saying: "Not at all. Nobody has bought Dunguib, I don't know who has come up with this idea."

Those Fentons will extract top dollar I hope.

This simpering adulation of McManus is cloying in the extreme.
But it's so typical of so many Irish people who find possession of large amounts of money somehow intrinsically admirable. It's this kind of attitude that has largely contributed to the country being the god-forsaken **.hole it is today... a country of blighted values and skewed priorities. As I drive around the place I encounter roads that you wouldn't expect to find in Chad , I end up in places where broadband provision is non-existent ( but hey -we're gonna be leaders in the ''smart economy'' LOL) , I pass national schools that are barely fit to be refugee holding camps etc.etc.

Oh God , I do so hope that Mr Mcmanus will find the success ''he deserves'' !?
Let us all pray that the great tax-exile may be lucky enough to buy some super champions soon so that ......so that what ? Who should give a flying f.uck about whether the distinguished would-be mini-philanthropist ever has another winner or not ?
Oh yes , the slavish idolaters who care about the fortunes of billionaires -that's who .

Succinctly expressed.

?:|

vubiant, while i agree with most of your statement, im just wondering and im open to correction but does mcmanus not live and make his money outside the state.

unlike other exiles who have made the bulk of their money in the state but chose to live elsewhere for tax reasons.

Fair play to JP for what he does in the game but to be honest I bet you he doesnt even know half of the horses he owns!!

Well said Vubiant. The wealthiest people in this country, with one or two exceptions like Sean Quinn, employ hardly anyone, have contributed to destroying the economy through property and other speculation, have corrupted the state, don't pay tax, and are treated like Victorian Viceroys when they decide to come back for a golf tournament or a race meeting. The roads may be like Chad but the ruling class is more like Zaire or Nigeria.

The reason this country is gone down the **te.r is cause of goverment not because Mcmanus makes his money outside of Ireland.

look at the many ways goverment waste money at least his donations go directly to the causes.

Ireland would be alot better country if it had another 100 JPs,exciled or non, more the power to him!

Ballaman - there may well be some obscure technical reasons to justify your comment . I don't pretend to have any detailed knowledge of the culture of the super-rich employing accountants to exploit and play clever games with tax loopholes .McManus was described as a tax-exile by a staff writer in the Sunday Business Post last March and I reckon they should know something about these matters.
Of course we might ask why this system is set up like this and tolerated at all .
The answer isn't too hard to find. The rich can buy politicians ( especially in Fianna Fail who virtuall own power in Ireland now) and politicians look after their benevolent pals and cronies -as any men of honour surely would. Thick as thieves and all that
For instance last spring in a Sunday Independent piece ( who runs the SI ?) McManus was quoted as follows -speaking in Limerick before the drooling throng who hope a few more lucrative crumbs will be thrown their way from the great man's table .....Mc Manus stated that Brian Cowen should be given the chance to get Ireland out of its economic difficulties and went on '' I think WE are in good hands and WE'LL leave it to THEM ''. This is laughable stuff.
Apart from the blatant propaganda of of the S Ind [subtext ''Great rich man supports B Cowen so be suitably impressed ] one wonders who the WE are that McManus refers to ?
Is he in the same boat as the rest of us ? Are we assured of his solidarity in these trying times ? Will he re-surface a few more GAA pitches to show his heart is in the right place.?
As for the THEM -we know who they are ....and he is more one of ''THEM ''than one of ''WE ''.

Vubiant again i agree with most of your comments , esp regarding that comic that was once a newspaper, its just a pity that its still such good seller and can influence so many people with its tripe.

calling him a tax exile is harsh , if everyone who earns money in another country and returns home regularly is a tax exile then there are alot of them around.

to me a tax exile is someone who normally works in ireland or gains their income from ireland and leaves the country to avoid paying tax here.

from what i can see, mcmanus works and lives in geneva and because of his wealth can return more often then most, to my eyes he enjoys his racing ( i dont agree with his policy of buying up the best juveniles) and he puts alot of his money into the sport as well as giving alot back to the country.

yes Vubiant money will open alot of doors to you and the networks you subsequently move in will open more doors to you, thats the way its always been.

that been said FF have brought this network sysyem to a new low over the years and i really hope that they will over time be brought to pay for their doings.

And I thought I was a bitter!
What`s the title of this thread vubiant? It`s "as an owner", not "as an abundantly wealthy person".
I`m expressing an opinion based purely on the fact that he spends an inordinate amount of his cash on a sport I appreciate, so I stand by my assertion that he deserves more success, comparitively speaking.
I`d imagine there are dozens of similarly affluent Irishmen who contribute far less to our society than he does. And where his wealth is garnered is not my concern. It`s highly likely it`s no more dubious than the pseudo wealth accumulated by many people you and I know.
And please don`t accuse me of opining a typically Oirish attitude in turning a blind eye to wrongdoing. It wouldn`t be further removed from my personal ideologies. I detest our heirarchy and elite for bringing my country to it`s knees. The same people who Mr McManus praises and supports, and have created the havoc than will ensue for many years to come.
In this instance however, I`m merely separating "the donor" from "the owner".
You can also rest assured, I neither adore nor pray for any man on Earth.

Enjoyable reading guys...sorry to butt in but what is it that JP does in geneva?

He is a forex trader in Geneva mainly but has interests in a number of areas. Basically a multi strategy hedge fund focussing on forex.

Giant Strides - I'm afraid you have developed a severe strain of paranoia .
I hope you shrug this off fairly quickly as it is an extremely debilitating mental state and furthermore makes normal discourse almost impossible to conduct .

I didn't name anyone in my posts and I certainly didn't ''accuse'' you of anything.

In fact I'm I'm sure many forumites will find your concern for Mr Mc Manus' fortunes ''as an owner'' quite touching.
I hope you can cope with the fact that I won't be one of them .

Giant strides, based on the money that he has ploughed back into the business and given the number of horses that he has in training you would have to say that the success has been limited.

i suppose it shows that in NH at least that money cant buy you sucess and that luck is a huge factor in buying the right horse and getting it to the right trainer who gets that right distance and right amount of training into it.

even with the very best of animals you still need alot of luck with training/injuries etc.

Vubiant just because i admire mcmanus for makinghuge amounts of money doesnt mean that i hang on his every word, yes there are lots of people like that but i am not one of them.i am quiet capable of making up my own mind and of changing it again as facts come to light.

i hope you arent one of the typical begrudgers that cant stand to see others doing well for themselves.

I`ve coped with plenty thanks and I`m not afraid to admit I`m a bit paranoid. I have many good reasons for this" debilitating mental state" as you put it. It`s not ideal but in many cases it`s justified and it doesn`t keep me up at night. Either does thinking of McManuses horses.
I know you didn`t mention names but I think your reaction to my reply proved you were inferring me amongst others for lauding him. Anyway, what does it matter? It`s not worthy of any further debate. I respect your opinion. Not sure you respect others.

Anyone know why McManus has only one horse with WP Mullins (Arbor Supreme) ?

That's fair enough GS ...there are many facets of the issue you raised by posting this thread . I would love to tease them all out in a calm philosophical way but we both know that a sports forum -or indeed any forum -is hardly a suitable vehicle for comprehensive examination of complex topics.
I know also we all love**ging each other off betimes and casting verbal barbs out of a sense of playful mischief . That's fine -no one comes to blows and most of it blows away like froth.
One can say that none of it matters a great deal in the end -and there is a sense in which that's true. The day will come when we and our temporary controversies and shenanigans won't even be a memory.
But while we're here on earth I think there are a few areas that do somehow matter . One is the issue of life and death . That's why I have striven to oppose those who have supported violent murderous campaigns of the IRA and its satellites. [It's also a reason,incidentally , why I remain disturbed and regretful about the level of abortion that has come to exist in society.]
Another is , broadly , the matter of social justice. That's why I oppose the nefarious politico-financial nexus which has caused so much calamitous suffering and loss to hundreds of thousands of ordinary Irish citizens.
The main members of that nexus are known and can be listed..
Without claiming to be exhaustive I would itemise the following (in no order of importance )....
..the greedy developers who have ravaged city and country
...the corrupt officials and local politicians who allowed the marauding to continue
...the bankers and financiers whose only raison d'etre is shareholder profit and personal gain whatever the social cost
Over-arching all of those scoundrels however looms the Fianna Fáil party who have been power for 220 of the last 22 years . From a line starting with the execrable Haughey , through the pathetic Ahern and that clown McCreevy on to the hapless Cowen -they have put in place the legislative framework that facilitated the financial vultures . They also wilfully neglected their duty of care by failing to exert any adequate tutelage and regulation over the construction , planning and finance sectors. We don't ''find ourselves in a recession '' . We were plunged into a recession as a result of deliberate policymaking , criminal neglect and lack of political integrity. The selfishness and stupidity of those charged with the public welfare are breathtaking to contemplate and infuriating to behold.

Now Mr J P McManus may not be personally implicated in any of this but the fact is he's really one of them . He belongs firmly in the ranks of speculators and financial whizzkids who get their kicks out of playing real life monopoly with money and commodities to rack up huge profits . The fact that McManus gives a few million here and there to various sporting (and ,of course, medical -looks extra good) causes doesn't impress me at all . It's only equivalent to me giving a few hundred. In fact many people undoubtedly give proportionately more to charities in Ireland than McManus and there's no fuss or trumpeting about it.

So no - I cannot admire McManus either because he is ultra rich or gives ostentatios public donations to various groups or buys and runs a lot of horses around the place.
A few final points . Possession of vast wealth is surely not inherently admirable .
Many are wealthy because they inherited it . Others are wealthy because they were lucky . In assessing the moral worth or social virtues of any human being I discount the size of personal fortune . It's of as much relevance to me as the colour of their eyes.
On the matter of respecting opinions . I don't respect all opinions equally -that would be an absurd position. I know enough about the world to see that some opinions are well argued and thought out and worthy of respect even if one disagrees with either the premises or conclusions they imply . Other opinions are plainly worthless -lacking any factual basis or logical coherence . Why should I respect them ?

This is almost unbelievable -one can't write the word n-e-f-a-r-i-o-u-s. !! ??

tumbles 17 Nov 14:14
Well said Vubiant. The wealthiest people in this country, with one or two exceptions like Sean Quinn, employ hardly anyone, have contributed to destroying the economy through property and other speculation, have corrupted the state, don't pay tax, and are treated like Victorian Viceroys when they decide to come back for a golf tournament or a race meeting. The roads may be like Chad but the ruling class is more like Zaire or Nigeria.

Sorrytumbles but IMO Sean Quinn's involvement with anglo deserves a lot more scrutiny than it has received. He is also quite probably one of the greatest winners from the NAMA bank bondholder bail out/heist.

Fair enough grade 1. I wasn't defending that but he does still employ a large amount of people doing real jobs whereas a lot of the top 100 employ very few if any people here.

Funny the strong opinions that people develop on somebody they know little or nothing about. Google a couple of articles or opinion boards and suddenly they become a fountain of knowledge on that individual.

Couldn't agree more with the previous poster.

Me too and well done to Vubiant for his post.Wasted on most on here but appreciated all the same

I guess it would be rude to not reply to all that vubiant!
I`m of the opinion that respect is, by and large, overrated in society. It is accorded to many purely on the basis that they are part of a broader classification that has basically inherited it through the course of history, not on their personal attributes. So therefore I wouldn`t expect anyone to respect all opinions.
If you read my first post here, you will note I questioned his charitable contribution as possibly not worthy of mention let alone praise. I would still insist that he contributes an immense amount to racing here and for that he should at the very least earn some plaudits. After all, we wouldn`t be having this discussion if he ploughed his money into vintage cars!
FWIW I wholeheartedly agree with 99% of your views.

JP has been extremely successful in his ownership insofar as he defines such success - seemingly to have a runner in every NH race in Britain or Ireland no matter how bad the race or how bad the horse. It may be a type of compulsive disorder.

f mulder
Not read this thread for a while. Not sure if you are still on this forum but very sadly Rio Bravo had to be put down last year. RIP.

Hope you're well and i guess you are looking forward to the pt to pt season

I know also we all love**ging each other off betimes and casting verbal barbs out of a sense of playful mischief . That's fine -no one comes to blows and most of it blows away like froth.

'Elementary my dear Watson'

back to the original point and seeing as the fighting fifth is saturday

i know he spreads his horses about and who could blame him for that but i find it interesting that binoclar ended up at hendersons

id say he'd never of trusted jonjo with that one
but then why does he trust jonjo at all- imagine if henderson, king or hobbs could do a far greater job at jackdaws castle

More like Jackdaw's Cattle imo.

:D

Great post above, Vubiant. 18th Nov 17.22

'Entertainment my dear Watson'