willie Mullins ruining racing as a sporting spectacle

I do not mind him doing what he did earlier today solely for the Trainer's Championship in the last few days. But, not every big race of the NH season eg The Schweppes Hurdle, King George, etc.

The man is class,unlike the the runner up !!!

Shafted and thundered…..back to Ireland with uk loot…..

I think his son gives him the nod…go on dad this is easy…..

Jealousy is a terrible thing

Sorry to disappoint you iron@rse but I’m a fan of the Irish gent…

Had Mr Mullins not taken his horses over for the Oaksey Chase Ga Law would have been the winner, a horse rated 152. I would prefer to watch a high quality Gaelic Warrior, rated 170, strut his stuff and collect the prize. Hitman would have been credited with 3rd place when in actual fact he was 7th beaten almost half of the home straight. The Celebration Chase would have had Jonbon winning by over 10 lengths from Edwardstone without Il Etait Temps and Energumene and every ''expert'' in the land would have been telling us Jonbon is an alltime great.

Searching for ways to lower the bar is never the answer and will do nothing for the game , far better for the also rans to look outside the comfort blanket to find ways of closing the gap.

Willie is the G.O.A.T     

Totally agree, he brings class horses otherwise we would be having to watch the same old 2nd rate donkeys in 3/4 horse fields.

he wins 38 races all season while skelton wins 179 so not sure he's farming all the races

JP O’Brien’s stats this season in Ireland percentage wise are not far off Mullins’

JP has had 174 runners,106 placed in first 4, 60%. Mullins has had 468 in first 4, 61%

Winners 24.5% Mullins. About 22% JP O’Brien.

Amazing how many times "jealousy" gets rolled out on these threads. Are all the moans coming from potential competitors? The OP is simply expressing frustration that dominance is dull. But not necessarily dominance in winning bib races, obviously that's admirable and a cause for celevration of excellence. It's the numerical dominance in the number of runners that really turns people off. When any trainer has over half the field in a race that has a long tradition, then that tradition starts to lose  its appeal.

And sticking in the top weight to put half the field out of the weights. As I've stated in another thread, the operation is ruthless, with a very charming front man. At least they didn't pull out of the last race once it was over the line!

Mullins is dominant anyway, is it really necessary to game the rules to get that extra little bit of advantage?

It's nothing to do with the self evident brilliance of the operation, it's almost like showboating though.

Can anybody explain the genius behind having eleven horses in the Triumph Hurdle , and winning with a 100/1 shot ?

It was a fluke in the sense that the reason he ran them is the changing rules to qualify for the festival handicaps. So the theory was to get them all a qualifying run and some festival experience. And if they happen to go and unexpectedly win, well it's another g1 winner.

He feels sorry for Dan.

Reminds me a little of Ponting's convicts. Winning easily wasn't enough for them, they wanted to humiliate their opposition, ie demonstrate utter dominance. The Aussies had a tremendous team at the time. One of, if not the best in history but nobody outside of Australia liked them. It is possible to win, and even be dominant in sport, and retain your class. Say Henry Cecil in this sport, or Federer in tennis.

His record has earned him the right to be sent the best horses. After that he trains the best horses to win the best races. And he's very good at it. Is it good for competition and interest in the sport? No, it's terrible.

Apart from Mullins NH would be in dire straights imo

He feels sorry for Dan. says Swifty (tongue in cheek)

I like Mr Mullins and his high class horses. I relished watching Il Etait Temps and Gaelic Warrior today. It was most enjoyable. Very fine performances from both I think. I found the battle between Nick Rockett, I Am Maximus and Grangeclare West on the run to the line in the Aintree Grand National enthralling and it mattered not one jot to me those 3 were all trained by the same gentleman. I had a wager on none of the 3 of them by the way. I fail to see how not running the very best horses eligible can enhance the thrill of watching these amazing animals compete. I think someone said Mr Mullins won something like 38 races to win the Trainer's Championship. Obviously he wins a lot of the big races with talented horses. Why do people not want the best available to compete against each other regardless of who trains them? If the sport ever lost its magic for me and I wasn't enjoying races from the very top table I'd find something else to do with my times besides watching something that irritated me.

..... Joining date speaks volumes.

Been here over 15 years. Don't know exactly what date I joined. Do you Sir?

He won the title due to flooding the big ticket races and hoovering up a lot of the place money, which is often more than winning significant races. Those are the rules, and they allow him to do it.

.... Exactly, so the greatest of all time needs 10 horses in one race to prove a point ???

  .... Farcical imo. The only 2 people intrested in it were the protagonists.

He ran good horses in good races that were entitled to compete in those races. 1st, 2nd, 4th ln the Oaksey Chase and 1st and 3rd in the Celebration Chase today whilst other supposed top trainers had horses out with the washing as the saying goes in those races. I fail to see why the gentleman shouldn't run these top class competitors in the top races.

In a year when he is not in contention for the title, how many does he send over for these races?

He explicitly stated he ran Il Etait Temps for the place money, his words 'needed another soldier'. Of course races aren't ran on theory or trainer expectation, and it ran far better than he anticipated. But it only ran in the first place to try and obtain place money for the title.

In my opinion if Mr Mullins doesn't send good horses over for ''these races'' the races are all the poorer for it. As I said earlier had Il Etait Temps and Energumene not travelled over for today's Celebration Chase Jonbon would have been winning the race by over 10 lengths and labelled an alltime great. I don't think he is a great good though he is.

To answer your question I haven't a clue how many Mr Mullins sends over for ''these races'' when not winning the title but for me that simply means the races are lower in quality without his participation.

I don't think many people are critical of him running the best horses. It was a bit too cynical for me, especially the top weight that would have never have run otherwise but to compress much of the opposition out of the handicap.

It's an acknowledgement that having so much of the best assets concentrated in one yard can only be a long term negative, ie the sport will eat itself.

There is no obvious solution, but in my view the Mullins team should have played it with a straight bat this year, instead of for example running 10 horses in a race he wouldn't have done if the title wasn't on the line.

Il Etait Temps is a relatively young horse with not many miles on the clock and hadn't run for almost a year. With a rating of 160 and room for improvement due to having  not run many races and his age today's performance was a possibility. He was 2nd favourite for the race for goodness sake. Would the winner of this season's Champion Hurdle not have been considered to be running for place money prior to the race? I think there's a strong possibility she would have.

Il Etait Temps is a relatively young horse with not many miles on the clock and hadn't run for almost a year. With a rating of 160 and room for improvement due to having  not run many races and his age today's performance was a possibility. He was 2nd favourite for the race for goodness sake. Would the winner of this season's Champion Hurdle not have been considered to be running for place money prior to the race? I think there's a strong possibility she would have.

Of course he was entitled to run well. My point is that Mullins conceded he only ran to try and get place money for the title quest. I feel like big money for placing distorts the outcome because nobody anticipates one trainer being able to flood the field with runners. Perhaps only winning prize money should count.

Does it not bother you that the same trainer controls several horses in a race.  Is it a team sport?

Racing League?

I explained earlier the same trainer having the 1st 3 home in the Aintree Grand National did not detract from my enjoyment of the race. I posted that not long ago on this thread. If I thought for one minute Mr Mullins was at what might be called ''funny business'' by running several horses in the same race and I wasn't enjoying watching these top class races I'd find something else to do as I have also said on this thread.

People make all sorts of accusations against different jockeys, trainers and owners and they state the game is totally corrupt yet bet race after race, day after day. They can't help themselves and that is a big part of the reason these affordability checks are going on. I don't trust every jockey and trainer but if I have the feeling they could be up to something I don't bet on that race.

I for one , am not suggesting corruption or even rule breaking . But it's handy to be able to crack on with the pace with a " sacrificial " horse to the advantage of another

Classic Getaway ran only to stop Pic D'orhy getting an easy lead, Not a pretence of winning.

I have no issue with the conditions races but when a trainer can have more than half of the runets in major handicaps,it does raise major issues for the regullators. A lot of horses were balloted out which might have won.

My last word on this is if Mr Mullins' owners have horses that have achieved ratings high enough to qualify for a prestigious race like ''The Whitbread'' they have every right to run their horse in the event. It's then up to other trainers and owners to somehow source more talented stock so they too can enter their horses in these Premier Handicaps and be sure of a run. Reducing the average rating of the participants in such a historic horse race is the answer to nothing in my opinion. All of the horses that ran yesterday in the 4.10pm at Sandown had different owners and they pay a lot of money to buy and keep their charges and have every right to watch them compete against the best. Mr Mullins wouldn't have run any of those under his care without the permission of the owner.

Reducing the quality of the horses running in top races will lead to the race being more mediocre than previous renewals and goodness knows there are already enough mediocre races throughout the year.

As a sidenote yesterday's race will always be ''The Whitbread'' to me no matter who it is sponsored by.

I'm a big fan of WPM and Irish racing in general, although it could be deemed unfair that a trainer who primarily relies on festivals and going mob-handed in a couple of Grand Nationals providing a large portion of his UK winnings can win the 2 recent UK championship against a rival who wins bread and butter races on a regular basis. Having said that, like many sports, Willie is the dominant force in NH racing, the same with AOB on the flat.

Timeform top 15 chasers, 2 are trained in UK, 1 in France and 13 in Ireland. Timeform top 15 hurdlers, 4 are trained in UK and 11 in Ireland. The Irish are simply better, at least at the moment, trainers, scouting agents, biggest owners etc and at least Willie and Aiden often run their better ones to compete against each other.

You're missing the point imo jbp. It's irrefutable that one trainer having over half the field in a prestigious race, dictating the weights, the entries, the market is not sustainable long term. An exception is fine, but if it carries on people won't bother buying horses and entering them if all that happens is you come up against the Mullins wall. It is ironic obviously that he still got stuffed in the race, which softened the blow somewhat.

Andrew, I'm not sure many people are that bothered about the trainer championship per se, but it's the impact on racing that is has, with Mullins seemingly so keen to win it. As I've stated before, the system encourages the flooding of races with big money for the places. This level of control is unprecedented, and does need rule changing imo. Counting win only prize money would be the first step I would go with.

Spare some thought for the owner they obviously give him the go ahead….bill payer has the power…..

The gentleman of the turf comes over and takes the easy pickings big deal….

I actually feel for the man being tormented by gravy train…..give him breathing space with his staff and family ffs…

AOB is next in line to be drowned in gravy along with the Gosden family…..desperate times ahead….

They even poke the nose in the saddling boxes ffs….

There is such a thing as killing the golden goose. Irish jumps racing needs UK jumps racing to be buoyant. If it carries on in this direction, he will just be picking over the carcase.

Most other sports have restrictions in place to prevent this sort of attempted monopolization, football an obvious example. It has got to the stage where something needs to be done because having this fella hoovering up everything in sight is killing the game.

Restrictions,apart from ripping fodder…

Planning for 5 team from each league for champions league……no restrictions there tbh…

5th and average you get into Europe….lol ffs

I’m talking about a real football league, you seem to be thinking about Scot pish

Real ! Lol

I’m talking about the one down south which is drowning in foreign….

The Irish head to uk and plunder riches

Foreign players plunder the so called premier and soak up the vomit inducing sums,and couldn’t give two hoots for fodder…

Keep paying..

Just the usual Scots bile and bitterness, keep watching Alloa vs Falkirk

I've no doubt the same has been said about Martin Pipe, Michael Dickinson etc. The races are there to be won-is Willie supposed to give up the chance of a second trainers championship because another name should be on the trophy?

No surprise that one of his biggest backers is Rich Ricci, the yanks love a monopoly.

It’s well known that owning horses is not exactly known for being profitable outside of the big players if you take away the outside chance of hitting it big with greedy sods like Mullins and his owners flooding all the big races then no wonder the game is in big trouble with 3 and 4 runner fields now being commonplace.

just picking up on ciders point about how you determine the championship, just on a quick check (and someone can go and do it in detail in case i made an error), i've got mullins ahead on win only prize money as well as total prize money

a great number of skeltons winners are low earners through the winter, 3 to 6k races etc

CaptainCristy 27 Apr 25 08:41 
Just the usual Scots bile and bitterness, keep watching Alloa vs Falkirk

Bile and bitterness lol

Bit of racism here tbh….poor stuff tbf..

CaptainCristy 27 Apr 25 08:50 
It’s well known that owning horses is not exactly known for being profitable outside of the big players if you take away the outside chance of hitting it big with greedy sods like Mullins and his owners flooding all the big races then no wonder the game is in big trouble with 3 and 4 runner fields now being commonplace.

Disgusting comment….idiot

I know it is difficult for you to be specific about anything but what exactly was ‘disgusting’ about it?

And as for ‘racism’, clearly you don’t even know what racism is.

“greedy sod like Mullins “

He has a job to do you fool…..what do you expect/want ? For him to stay away plonker….

Yeah, let’s have half the field in the big race just to p1ss everyone off.

Coolmore…

Godolphin…

The late gentleman of the turf Henry Cecil…

Retired Michael Stoute

Vincent O’Brien …..

The list is endless….

Swallowed up the big races for decades…

Fortunately punters never noticed the likes of this bell E accusing them of being greedy sods

Bell E Christy number one clown….

Can’t remember any big race ‘swallowed up’ by Stoute or Cecil having half the field perhaps you sad Scots half wit can let us know.

Racism again you fool….you are so thick you can’t help it….

Who had 6 in the Derby you leaking colon…..ffs

Please advise the year and size of the field, or is that too much to ask wee willie

Mullins owners obviously agreed to have the horse entered up you fool….

He rules simply because he is the best by a mile…..

Big meeting just around the corner…he’ll plunder that too…and rightly so…..

Pity you can’t furnish us with some evidence for your drivel, I suggest ye gae back to yer pit.

2020

Would you like me to show you field ?

1 Amhran Na Bhfiann William Buick
2 Emissary Jim Crowley
3 English King Frankie Dettori
4 Gold Maze David Egan
5 Highland Chief Ben Curtis
6 Kameko Oisin Murphy
7 Khalifa Sat Tom Marquand
8 Max Vega Harry Bentley
9 Mogul Ryan Moore
10 Mohican Heights Andrea Atzeni
11 Mythical James Doyle
12 Pyledriver Martin Dwyer
13 Russian Emperor Seamie Heffernan
14 Serpentine Emmet McNamara
15 Vatican City Padraig Beggy
16 Worthily Martin Harley
Investec Derby betting
bet365: 5-2 English King, 4 Kameko, 5 Mogul, 6 Russian Emperor, 8 Vatican City, 16 Highland Chief, Pyledriver, 20 Mohican Heights, 25 bar

Run along now…

I’ve had a good look through, nope, no sign of any Stoute runners.

I have to go now head in the form book…..

Have a profitable day….

Coolmore tho…..tbf….

Plundering….imv…Bla

They are just as bad, running multiple runners, pacemakers, blockers.

I think Manchester City should still be named Premier League Champions this year. OK, they won far fewer points than a few others but they spent the most on players and they still made more money than all of the other contenders, so they should be named Champions.

Really? In what other sport? Farcical.

a distinction ought to be drawn between non-handicap races and handicap races. The former are there to test who is the best and I agree with those who say WM has the best and trains them better than anyone else (Ile Etait yesterday a simply brilliant example of his  training genius). He should run as many as he wants. However, I agree with Cider and others that it is not a good look to have 10 horses in a handicap, the effect of which (designed or otherwise) is to condemn half the field to be out of the weights. It is not an attractive sight to me and I am reasonably certain it leads to reduced betting from those who bet most (as opposed to small stakes now-and-then punters). To those who say the rest must catch up........the route of improving a horse though the grades to make a few £ and then buy better etc incrementally is blocked if, as soon as you get to the top handicaps,  your  horse is either balloted out or carrying 14lb morse than it should. I note with interest that AO'B doesn't feel the need to run 8 or 9 in the Hunt Cup, the Ebor, the Cambridgeshire etc etc. He wins with Group horses and runs them in their correct grade.

Go back to the original….

Most punters would agree….

Starting date both codes and who wins the most races when the season ends on the set date……

The game is a circus now…anything goes…..pro cush and remember to count or your fkd…..laughable tbh….

Going gauge gadget or whatever it is,another load of b@locks tbh…….addiction to water…..zzzzz

I’ve got 120 winners he’s got 121,he’s the winner well done see you next year…..

But I’ve got £3 more zzzzzzzz

Your man townsend should be on his most favored horse in the race
Crock of crp at you don't knkw which of his horses to back he has 5 of them

Paul Nicholls might be on an inexorabe slide.

Tally Of Winners, Strike Rate and quality of wins.  All gone south

As it turned out, Mullins had the title sewn up before the Bet365 Gold Cup but that does not change my view that being able to fix a handicap with multiple entries is good for racing. I don't recall Stoute or Cecil running 5+ in a handicap to keep potential rivals out of the race.

I have just read this thread in full, and for the most part it really is an interesting debate with good arguements on both sides. Hypothetically, if a starter trainer with say 30 horses had got "lucky" because half a dozen really wealthy owners have decided to send him/her the majority of these 30 and they happen to go on to win the majority of the big races that season between them....does that make him/her worthy of the title of champion trainer,should the total value of prizemoney won exceed anyone else's?

Personally I don't think so. Maybe someone could explain why champion jockeys titles are decided on number of winners, whereas champion trainers titles are decided on amount of prizemoney won?

The simple fact is that there are plenty of trainers who could do what Mullins has done with the same resources so the "Genius" moniker is hardly accurate. Give some on here different sizes of buckets of dung to throw at a wall and probably odds on the one with the biggest bucket would get more to stick on a wall.

I am inclined to agree with your first sentence.

Zzzzzz

Wake up you ....   and try and contribute something interesting for a change.

Having said that...you do talk some sense/truth on topics outside of racing

I was referring to yourself and Cagliari……

Yawn…

Cagliari,once again you failed to appear at Scone….I was looking out for you to no avail….all blow tbh…

layemall 27 Apr 25 16:35 
Having said that...you do talk some sense/truth on topics outside of racing

??

Ah,you mean the undocumented rodents….

Your recent thread that is getting a few posts on it. Common sense ain't so common, and some of us can see what is going on around us and others refuse to see it until it affects them or a member of their family or friends, in a v negative way.

Strange that you wait for things that were never ordained Quixall and yet avoid your own sisters calamity regardless of the thread?

layemall 27 Apr 25 16:41 
Your recent thread that is getting a few posts on it. Common sense ain't so common, and some of us can see what is going on around us and others refuse to see it until it affects them or a member of their family or friends, in a v negative way.

Deary me…..

Keep taking the pills....that are obviouly not working.......or should I say, get your prescription changed?!....hmmmmm, which option should you choose?

All is fine this end….no pills required ta

Glad to hear it. Anyway, total number of winners or total prizemoney for the trainers championship and why?.....and which is morally the right system?.....zat is zee big question!

Most winners seems the fairest but still means a small pool, ratio of winners to runners would be a fairer measure of a trainers ability in the placing of horses but even then a minimum threshold would be required to reflect actuality.

I prefer the original….

Start to finish with the most winners…….both codes….

I month NH break…

Skelton floods the summer jumps program with dozens of horses building up a large bank of prize money when other trainers are not competing and as he has admitted himself then throwing them into the knackers yard so nothing great about that pursuit of the Championship. At least Mullins is bring class horses to the end of season UK races.