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Singapore & UK customers betting into a single pool on British racing
Singapore & UK customers betting into a single pool on British racing
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Replies: 94
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Just clicked the link "video is not available anymore", hmm
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here it is
. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSZPsAKWd8k&t=3s |
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I take it that your education came via the video then JCM? Does the fact that something is on YT mean that it is factual or truthful iyo?
Surely you can educate readers with a couple of simple facts e.g what are the Tote doing that is detrimental to punters, you must know why you are attacking them? |
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Weren't you a copper? The youtube video presents the background to the complaints about the Tote
Why should I regurgitate what is known and said in the video. You know nothing about the allegations so why not get the background? |
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The major complaint is about late seeding.
Seeding was introduced during covid when there were no on track punters. Problem is after covid they were allowed to continue seeding Problem is insiders have said the Tote seeds in the last minute or so on value permutations thus betting against its customers with data only available to the Tote. So they bet into the pools at 80p in the £1 on value. That sound ethical to you? Watch the video, maybe you can put up a defence |
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Exactly JCM, I prefer to deal with facts as presented by the accuser (s), so far not a single one on here has presented any evidence other than directing readers to a video of complaints if I am getting your gist correctly? I have no knowledge or opinion either way which is why I have asked for evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Tote.
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Insiders/informants.
You were a copper, so you might have come across informants. The accusation needs to be investigated. Damning if true You on the side of truth and fairplay? |
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If you don't believe the accusations fair enough.
Leave quietly, you have no skin in the game. |
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Thanks JCM, I still do not understand how the Tote benefit even if the accusations are true though?
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"When all the Tote detractors on here can explain in some detail what difference it makes to the end user i.e the punter it appears to be a lot of accusations with no evidence to show the take out or so called "seeding" has any detrimental effect on dividends?"
I have Cagliari, at least a couple of times. It's complicated, but I'd imagine the Placepot dividend is reduced by 5-10% because of it. It's a bit like the government putting up the tax rate and no one realising they have. I don't think it gives them an advantage on the win and place markets, but that might be simply because I can't work out how it does. In it's simplest form it works like this.. There are two outcomes. BLACK and WHITE. There are 3 punters. The Tote, SHAGGY and VELMA Each ticket is £15 The Tote picks 2 tickets. It first picks BLACK, and because it knows it already has picked black it's second pick is WHITE. Shaggy buys 1 ticket. He draws out BLACK. Velma then buys a ticket. She doesn't know what Shaggy has picked. For simplicity purposes assume there's a 50% chance she picks each colour. There is no commission. What if Velma picks WHITE? There is £60 in the pool and 2 winners. If it's WHITE, Velma wins £30 and the Tote wins £30 If it's BLACK, Shaggy wins £30 and the Tote wins £30 What if Velma picks BLACK? If it's BLACK, Shaggy wins £20, Velma wins £20 and the Tote wins £20 If it's WHITE, the Tote wins £60. There are 4 possibilities, and for simplicity, each has an equal chance After 4 games The Tote is +£30 -£10 £0 £0 It's £20 up. Vera is £10 down and Shaggy is £10 down And this is all because the Tote knows it's own picks. Not because of any skill. |
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Using data not available to all in a pool betting system by its operator would probably be deemed as insider trading
If they have info say in placepots of underbet selections on off 1st race that are taking out a good % of the market then they can place those bets at 80p in the pound roughly. If they are placing these bets as an act of seeding or building the pot they have an unfair advantage Seeding when the pools aren't matured at the beginning of the day I would say is acceptable. All tote has to do is prove the seeding doesn't take place at the off. As far as I'm aware they won't do it and the question gets ignored. So the punter who has a winning placepot loses 20% to the Tote in commission and if the tote have won on their own placepot a further deduction to Fred's winnings is taken ALLEGEDLY |
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Didn't see Clydebank's post. Cheers
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A lot of ifs buts and maybes but no actual facts as yet? If you feel so strongly and believe what you are accusing them of have you reported your suspicions to the GC or the FCA or any other statutory body?
If not why not? |
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...Thats why when i posted the video i clearly put " you decide " But heres some more copy and paste whilst i am here ...
One claim – in a document seen by the Guardian - suggests the Tote could have made at least £3m from proprietary trading since PGS made its debut, and that as much as 40% of many day-to-day Placepot pools is actually comprised of the Tote’s own money. The claim is hard to verify and, when contacted on Monday, the Tote declined to comment on these figures on the record. It insists, however, as it did when PGS launched, that its aim is to make pools more stable, transparent, fair and better for all customers. |
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..... I contacted the GC commission about this about a year ago. Waste of time but it gave me peace of mind.
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It's being done.
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GC is toothless
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Far from toothless given their propensity for handing out huge fines to bookies JCM, do you think they would exempt the Tote if they uncovered wrongdoing as alleged?
Why not submit a FOI request and perhaps find out if any other complaints have been made? |
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Read up
It's being done. |
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Thank you for contacting the Gambling Commission about the Tote who operate under the licence TDCO Limited.
You have contacted us to check if it is legal for a gambling business to buy tickets in its own pool. Thank you for raising this matter with us. By way of background, gambling businesses are required to be transparent and operate fairs terms and practices for its customers. I have added a link to the relevant information on our website below which you should find helpful to review. Customers knowledge of who they are participating against - Gambling Commission While it is not illegal for them to participate in their own pool, it must be made clear in their terms and conditions that they do so. This is so the customer can make an informed decision as to whether they want to place bets under those terms. Having reviewed the gambling business's terms and conditions, there is information regarding this within section 14.8 It is not clear from your correspondence whether you have a specific dispute regarding a bet you placed with the Tote, but I understand that you have contacted the gambling business for information regarding this matter. If you are not happy with their response, then you may want to raise a formal complaint. You can do this by following the complaints process within their terms and conditions. We recommend that you fully exhaust the complaint process available to you. Please see our website here for information on making a complaint. After exhausting the complaint process, you are welcome to send us the outcome of your complaint/relevant evidence if you think the business is in breach of their licence conditions. While we cannot assist with individual complaints, information passed to us can help inform our regulatory work and ongoing compliance activity. Thank you for contacting us, we have made a record of your complaint against the gambling business as per our compliance process. Basically said if its in the terms and conditions it allowed. !!   |
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CagLIARiG is only trying to ruin the thread, ignore him and he will go away and annoy someone else.
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Exactly how does trying to understand the accusations ( unfounded btw) ruin a thread second again? Is it because it ruins your self indulged delusions that only you can be right and do not want the facts or truth to interfere?
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Cagliari, I wouldn't say the GC is toothless, but it is clueless
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Did you not read my explanation, or fail to understand it?
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The GC was warned that Football Index was effectively a PONZI scheme, and still did feck all. Not because it couldn't, but it is totally incompetent and ignorant, and lacking in understanding. As we have also seen with ACs.
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Agreed they are clueless and inept Clydebank but if you are right in your suspicions I would push them on the basis that Tote are breaching the terms of their licence regardless of their T @ Cs allowing them to seed the pools? You are the only poster who has given an example that could carry some weight and given me an understanding of where potential wrongdoing is being perpetrated, so thanks for that.
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It's basic ethics, transparency, best practice, etc - purely common sense that no betting operator should be playing in their own markets.
The bloke that runs the meat raffle down the pub - what would it look like if he won two weeks running? It doesn't matter if he just got very lucky or if he is a villain - the optics are awful! - and can easily be avoided. You could kill all the "conspiracy theories" (many of which do look to involve underhand practices) by just doing the right thing - don't play in your own markets. It's a good job the Betfair "cross matcher" is "best execution", so it is purely to ensure that THEIR customers get the best possible price!  |
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Well done Clydebank.
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CagliariG25 Apr 24 11:56Joined: 16 Jul 22 | Topic/replies: 8,690 | Blogger: CagliariG's blog
You are the only poster who has given an example that could carry some weight and given me an understanding of where potential wrongdoing is being perpetrated, so thanks for that. Fair play to CB29 taking the time to write it out - but if you couldn't see the possibilities for abuse or bad practice for yourself - you probably need to find a different thread to interrogate and it does really undermine you claims of a career as an investigator of some sort. |
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Well done TM
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I was merely asking for substantiated facts TM, something that is bereft on here and this thread in particular. You have just confirmed that the posters revert to personal attacks when unable to back up their unfounded accusations, Clydebank being the only one who was able.
Low intellect usually the reason btw, so you fit right in with the way the OP was subjected to personal abuse, nothing new for you tbf!! |
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tbf, regarding intellect - you are the only one that couldn't see the (mathematical) potential for mal-practice!
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I admit until I read Clydebanks post I did not see it, but if I was the only one why could nobody else answer when I first declared my interest?
I would challenge you to find a single person who could have deduced where wrongdoing might be going on before his post? |
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There have been dozens of threads ffs (pretty much every time westberks spams - he get the same reply).
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that being the last person to "act" (in many scenarios), especially in a "pool" betting situation, is a massive advantage. Especially if you know everybody else's picks! |
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My apologies for not reading every thread that makes unfounded accusations and believe anything that is posted TM, I did say I was interested and intrigued because I genuinely could not see the advantage for the Tote purely on this thread.
Are you against trying to establish facts by asking perfectly reasonable questions? |
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I told you to watch the video which details how the Tote could benefit.
But you for some reason wanted it in writing from posters and waste people's time You are after an argument not truth. Maybe you feel comfortable going after one man bands like Brimardon and not big corp. Any evidence won't be shown on here, that would be a stupid thing to do wouldn't it? Show one's hand? Genuinely intrigued my @rse  |
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Apologies - I didn't realise you were new to the forum.
The facts are obviously really important - but actually the optics concern me more. Betfair, the Tote, etc could make all of this go away simply by acknowledging that they "could" have an advantage and therefore it would be completely unethical/wrong for them to operate in their own markets. The fact that a regulator does not understand this (or does understand it but still permits it) is mind-boggling! Have you considered a job with the GC at all? |
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The tax implications on that video outlined would possibly be reason for said company not being forthcoming with how many times they won their own pool TM
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Why would you not provide evidence on here if you had any JCM? You could have given a simple answer right at the point I said I was interested if you had any, what difference would it have made?
Explain where I have been argumentative as opposed to asking pertinent questions IYO or are you again reduced to personal abuse because you have no facts in any shape or form? |
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unless the people checking their processes understand the system, the loopholes or backdoor methods that a company could be using to hide their illicit operations id say you've as much chance of proving something as gaze has of finding his grail
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