Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
MPs should be given the opportunity to debate and vote on assisted dying after the findings of a new report, Dame Esther Rantzen says.
The Health and Social Care Committee found evidence it has led to better end-of-life care in countries where it is allowed.
Dame Esther said this showed there is no "slippery slope" when it comes to the impact on palliative care.
But Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson said potential coercion remained a concern.
The Commons' committee's review looked at places where assisted dying for the terminally ill is allowed, including parts of the US, as well as Australia, Switzerland and New Zealand.
The cross-party group of MPs did not rule on a change in the law in England, saying it only wanted to inform debate.
Despite concern a change in the law would lead to poorer support at the end of life, the committee's report said, if anything, it was linked to improvement in the countries to have taken the step, with evidence showing the alterations resulted in extra investment in palliative care.
Dame Esther, who has stage four cancer, said the new report assuaged fears that palliative care could be damaged by introducing assisted dying.
"There isn't the slippery slope that so many are worried about," she said.
The report has cemented Dame Esther's belief that a parliamentary debate and free vote should be held on the subject.
"I'm not demanding that everybody in the world agrees with me, I'm just saying let's debate all the issues now that we've got international evidence and we know the public attitude is in favour," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
But she said she was "disappointed" that the committee had not made a clear call for a vote, saying it "doesn't fit into her timescale".
"This report does not help very much for those of us who desperately want the current law to change for the sake of our own families, and the many others in our situation," Dame Esther told the PA news agency.
The 83-year-old has been campaigning on the issue, including backing the launch of a petition demanding a parliamentary vote, which amassed tens of thousands of signatures over a few weeks.
She added: "If they had said 'we urgently need a Parliamentary debate and a free vote', you know, that could perhaps have fitted into my own timescale, but it doesn't."
The 83-year-old Childline founder and broadcaster has long campaigned in favour of assisted dying, and revealed last year that she has joined the Dignitas assisted dying clinic in Switzerland.
Dame Esther said she wanted to avoid tarnishing her family's happy memories of her by suffering as her life draws to a close.
"The thing that motivates me greatly is having watched the deaths of loved ones around me and seen how memories of a bad death obliterate happy memories and become very painful for those involved," she said.
Current laws in England mean her family cannot join her in Zurich if and when she decides to take that step without facing criminal investigations.
In England and Wales, the 1961 Suicide Act makes it an offence to encourage or assist someone to take their own life.
Separate laws in Scotland and Northern Ireland prevent dying people asking for medical help to die.
Over the last eight years, more than 250 people have travelled to Dignitas to end their lives, according to the clinic.
The cross-party group of MPs behind the new report said hospices in England needed extra money as access to care was patchy.
Currently hospices only receive a third of their funding from the NHS, despite providing the majority of specialist palliative care, according to Hospice UK.
Baroness Grey-Thompson, a critic of legalising assisted dying, acknowledged the findings of the report regarding countries that allow the practice, but said she believes palliative care is a "postcode lottery" in England.
"We need to make sure people are protected," she told BBC Breakfast.
She added further concerns that vulnerable people could be coerced into pursuing assisted dying, and that adequate safeguards were difficult to place.
Assisted dying was not always the "Hollywood death" that some might imagine, she said, and that complications could arise once lethal drugs enter the body.
She said she was not against a debate in parliament, and it was important to keep up the conversation about death.
The Health and Social Care Committee found evidence it has led to better end-of-life care in countries where it is allowed.
Dame Esther said this showed there is no "slippery slope" when it comes to the impact on palliative care.
But Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson said potential coercion remained a concern.
The Commons' committee's review looked at places where assisted dying for the terminally ill is allowed, including parts of the US, as well as Australia, Switzerland and New Zealand.
The cross-party group of MPs did not rule on a change in the law in England, saying it only wanted to inform debate.
Despite concern a change in the law would lead to poorer support at the end of life, the committee's report said, if anything, it was linked to improvement in the countries to have taken the step, with evidence showing the alterations resulted in extra investment in palliative care.
Dame Esther, who has stage four cancer, said the new report assuaged fears that palliative care could be damaged by introducing assisted dying.
"There isn't the slippery slope that so many are worried about," she said.
The report has cemented Dame Esther's belief that a parliamentary debate and free vote should be held on the subject.
"I'm not demanding that everybody in the world agrees with me, I'm just saying let's debate all the issues now that we've got international evidence and we know the public attitude is in favour," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
But she said she was "disappointed" that the committee had not made a clear call for a vote, saying it "doesn't fit into her timescale".
"This report does not help very much for those of us who desperately want the current law to change for the sake of our own families, and the many others in our situation," Dame Esther told the PA news agency.
The 83-year-old has been campaigning on the issue, including backing the launch of a petition demanding a parliamentary vote, which amassed tens of thousands of signatures over a few weeks.
She added: "If they had said 'we urgently need a Parliamentary debate and a free vote', you know, that could perhaps have fitted into my own timescale, but it doesn't."
The 83-year-old Childline founder and broadcaster has long campaigned in favour of assisted dying, and revealed last year that she has joined the Dignitas assisted dying clinic in Switzerland.
Dame Esther said she wanted to avoid tarnishing her family's happy memories of her by suffering as her life draws to a close.
"The thing that motivates me greatly is having watched the deaths of loved ones around me and seen how memories of a bad death obliterate happy memories and become very painful for those involved," she said.
Current laws in England mean her family cannot join her in Zurich if and when she decides to take that step without facing criminal investigations.
In England and Wales, the 1961 Suicide Act makes it an offence to encourage or assist someone to take their own life.
Separate laws in Scotland and Northern Ireland prevent dying people asking for medical help to die.
Over the last eight years, more than 250 people have travelled to Dignitas to end their lives, according to the clinic.
The cross-party group of MPs behind the new report said hospices in England needed extra money as access to care was patchy.
Currently hospices only receive a third of their funding from the NHS, despite providing the majority of specialist palliative care, according to Hospice UK.
Baroness Grey-Thompson, a critic of legalising assisted dying, acknowledged the findings of the report regarding countries that allow the practice, but said she believes palliative care is a "postcode lottery" in England.
"We need to make sure people are protected," she told BBC Breakfast.
She added further concerns that vulnerable people could be coerced into pursuing assisted dying, and that adequate safeguards were difficult to place.
Assisted dying was not always the "Hollywood death" that some might imagine, she said, and that complications could arise once lethal drugs enter the body.
She said she was not against a debate in parliament, and it was important to keep up the conversation about death.
Show More
whadda fo0k does this have to do with horse racing please?
I agree with Dame Esther, and I can also understand the concerns of those against assisted dying. This could pave the way for abuses and even murder if the ill individual is coerced, bullied or forced into it.
Whatever, it is a very sad and scary scenario for all concerned.
Whatever, it is a very sad and scary scenario for all concerned.
How it started in Canada?
How it's going....
A Paralympic army veteran told stunned lawmakers in Canada when she claimed that a government official had offered to give her euthanisia equipment while fighting to have a wheelchair lift installed in her home.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-gauthier-paralympian-euthanasia-canada-b2238319.html
How it's going....
A Paralympic army veteran told stunned lawmakers in Canada when she claimed that a government official had offered to give her euthanisia equipment while fighting to have a wheelchair lift installed in her home.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-gauthier-paralympian-euthanasia-canada-b2238319.html
Current laws in England mean her family cannot join her in Zurich if and when she decides to take that step without facing criminal investigations.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
utterly despicable imv.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
utterly despicable imv.
we already have a version of assisted dying,in DNR notices,
esther lived a life of privilidge hit a problem right at end of it and wants to use her priv to help change the law to suit her needs,what does that say for families whove fought pain/disruption/jumped hurdles all their life
her daughter even said this morning they dont want it for so call mental illness,ie dementia/alzim,which for those involved are the worst types pf pain,frustration you can ever imagine,
she also said 100s of countries now offer it and uk is a backwater/luddard for resisting ity,if that were the case why/how are dignitas making a fortune selling their option ?
esther lived a life of privilidge hit a problem right at end of it and wants to use her priv to help change the law to suit her needs,what does that say for families whove fought pain/disruption/jumped hurdles all their life
her daughter even said this morning they dont want it for so call mental illness,ie dementia/alzim,which for those involved are the worst types pf pain,frustration you can ever imagine,
she also said 100s of countries now offer it and uk is a backwater/luddard for resisting ity,if that were the case why/how are dignitas making a fortune selling their option ?
There's clearly an attack on farming in the name of saving the planet, and there have been protests in several countries, with it kicking off in Wales now as well.
So here's the big question, how comes migration is being allowed to increase populations while at the same time the land that feeds us is under attack from legislation / incentives?
We know there has been some deregulation in the GM industry, so maybe all food will be grown in factories, or we'll get our protein from insects.
But we also know that AI is estimated to possibly take over 95% of jobs, so what to do with the "useless eaters", eh? Disease X?
So here's the big question, how comes migration is being allowed to increase populations while at the same time the land that feeds us is under attack from legislation / incentives?
We know there has been some deregulation in the GM industry, so maybe all food will be grown in factories, or we'll get our protein from insects.
But we also know that AI is estimated to possibly take over 95% of jobs, so what to do with the "useless eaters", eh? Disease X?
Ada, have you heard? Esther wants to end it all.
Well, That's Life Cissie!
Well, That's Life Cissie!
PETER HITCHENS: We've dehumanised the unborn. Now it's the turn of the elderly and the ill
"Many feel guilty about the burden they place on their loved ones. As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable.
We have dehumanised the unwanted unborn and are about to dehumanise the inconvenient old and ill. Who’s next?"
https://mol.im/a/13204819
"Many feel guilty about the burden they place on their loved ones. As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable.
We have dehumanised the unwanted unborn and are about to dehumanise the inconvenient old and ill. Who’s next?"
https://mol.im/a/13204819
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
duffy 17 Mar 24 17:30
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
Any names?
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
Any names?
Not nonsense at all, HH, Hitchens is a devout Christian, so why wouldn't take that stance?
And his point is where does this end up?
I've given the example above of how it's going in Canada, request a stairlift from the authorities and they write back asking if you'd rather be euthanized!
And his point is where does this end up?
I've given the example above of how it's going in Canada, request a stairlift from the authorities and they write back asking if you'd rather be euthanized!
if you want to see your loved ones having a slow/painful death then fair enough...
i don't...
and i don't want one myself thank you very much.
i don't...
and i don't want one myself thank you very much.
This gives force to the warnings of those who argue assisted dying in this country will rapidly copy the frightening system in Canada. By 2022, that country was ending the lives of 13,200 people a year, 4.1 per cent of its annual deaths.
Hitchens answered that in his comment about palliative care.
Let's hope then, HH, that the day doesn't arrive when you're knocking on a bit and need assistance from the state in order to improve the quality of your life, say for example, a bungalow, mobility scooter or even...a STAIRLIFT!
Because the reply may come back:
Sorry Mr Hibby, unfortunately we can't help, but I'm pleased to say is that what we can do for you, is send someone round with a lethal injection. Would you care to phone 666 666 666 and make an appointment?
Because the reply may come back:
Sorry Mr Hibby, unfortunately we can't help, but I'm pleased to say is that what we can do for you, is send someone round with a lethal injection. Would you care to phone 666 666 666 and make an appointment?
need assistance from the state in order to improve the quality of your life
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
social care in the UK is a total fkn disgrace imv...
i'm dreading getting old and being unable to cope...
and if i am in constant pain and suffering i will be on the first plane to Switzerland...
trust me...
and if the UK wants to be a backward thinking country and not let people end their own lives on their terms to relieve the pain and suffering then so be it...
it won't stop me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
social care in the UK is a total fkn disgrace imv...
i'm dreading getting old and being unable to cope...
and if i am in constant pain and suffering i will be on the first plane to Switzerland...
trust me...
and if the UK wants to be a backward thinking country and not let people end their own lives on their terms to relieve the pain and suffering then so be it...
it won't stop me.
Legally assisted dying won't happen in this country, not while big pharma can make a fortune from drugs that keep people alive.
There's not much profit in assisted dying. They can only administer the stuff once in a lifetime.
Money is at the root of everything that happens in medicine just like everything else.
There's not much profit in assisted dying. They can only administer the stuff once in a lifetime.
Money is at the root of everything that happens in medicine just like everything else.
https://www.easyjet.com/en/cheap-flights/switzerland
------------------------------------------------------------
will be the best £15 i've ever spent if i'm in constant pain and agony.
------------------------------------------------------------
will be the best £15 i've ever spent if i'm in constant pain and agony.
It's the chronically ill that usually seek assisted dying.
But they usually need help to carry it out.
Anyone who helps them to get to cuckoo clock land might find themselves in the dock on a charge of assisting suicide.
But they usually need help to carry it out.
Anyone who helps them to get to cuckoo clock land might find themselves in the dock on a charge of assisting suicide.
with the Increase in Dementia summat going to have to Be Brought into play , Will be impossible to Provide care
Will be impossible to Provide care
------------------------------------
change 'will' to 'is' casemoney...
NHS/Social Care is on it's knees NOW...
God only knows what it will look like in 30 years (if i am still here).
------------------------------------
change 'will' to 'is' casemoney...
NHS/Social Care is on it's knees NOW...
God only knows what it will look like in 30 years (if i am still here).
I find it hugely ironic that there is such resistance and opposition to women being allowed to choose death during chronic illness in old age and little or no resistance to wee lassies who haven;t even learned what life is all about being able to walk in to a doc. and book an abortion.
Don't allow the old to kill themselves but do allow the young and inexperienced to kill their potential bairns.
By the thousands and thousands and thousands.
Don't allow the old to kill themselves but do allow the young and inexperienced to kill their potential bairns.
By the thousands and thousands and thousands.
Could assisted dying be coming to Scotland ?
-----------------------------------------------
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68674769
-----------------------------------------------
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68674769
In case you've not seen, and to at least give it an equine angle, some of you may have seen the story of Caroline March, 31, an event rider and sister-in-law of Piggy March, elected to go down the assisted suicide route last week after a fall left her with a spinal column injury and confined to a wheelchair. She penned a letter in her own words explaining her decision.
While I have never had suicidal thoughts, there is something comforting about having the control - the option - to choose when you've had enough, if, for whatever reason, your body is failing in some way. I don't see how anybody gains anything from seeing loved ones suffering unbearable pain or in a zombified state just because it's better than them not being here. Frankly, I'm not sure it always is... We would not subject our pets to it...
While I have never had suicidal thoughts, there is something comforting about having the control - the option - to choose when you've had enough, if, for whatever reason, your body is failing in some way. I don't see how anybody gains anything from seeing loved ones suffering unbearable pain or in a zombified state just because it's better than them not being here. Frankly, I'm not sure it always is... We would not subject our pets to it...
duffy 17 Mar 24 17:30
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
Too true.
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
Too true.
i've had to end the lives of two of my pets...
hardest thing i've had to do...
but it would have been 10 times harder watching them slowly evaporate in front of my very eyes...
watching them in pain every second of every day...
not being able to eat...
not being able to control when they go to the toilet...
that would have been utterly humiliating for them and soul destroying for me.
hardest thing i've had to do...
but it would have been 10 times harder watching them slowly evaporate in front of my very eyes...
watching them in pain every second of every day...
not being able to eat...
not being able to control when they go to the toilet...
that would have been utterly humiliating for them and soul destroying for me.
duffy 17 Mar 24 17:30
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
sparrow 28 Mar 24 08:43
Too true.
Oh, you mean the government telling people to "STAY HOME AND SAVE THE NHS"?
Yes, if you restrict access to medical facilities or / and scare the sh*t out of people to prevent them leaving their homes, then yes, you will kill people, as their report informed them after the first lockdown, but they still went ahead with further lockdowns anyway. The excess death figures since, largely not attributed to covid, would seem to confirm this.
Even if you believe there was a deadly disease on the loose which could kill millions, and there was evidence early on to suggest this wouldn't be the case, they didn't have any right to say, we're going to sacrifice this large group of people over here because we think we may be saving this larger group of people over there. But that's what they did.
Plenty happy to sacrifice the elderly and sick during covid.
sparrow 28 Mar 24 08:43
Too true.
Oh, you mean the government telling people to "STAY HOME AND SAVE THE NHS"?
Yes, if you restrict access to medical facilities or / and scare the sh*t out of people to prevent them leaving their homes, then yes, you will kill people, as their report informed them after the first lockdown, but they still went ahead with further lockdowns anyway. The excess death figures since, largely not attributed to covid, would seem to confirm this.
Even if you believe there was a deadly disease on the loose which could kill millions, and there was evidence early on to suggest this wouldn't be the case, they didn't have any right to say, we're going to sacrifice this large group of people over here because we think we may be saving this larger group of people over there. But that's what they did.
And not forgetting, there was a pandemic response strategy which had been carefully thought out over many years and which advised none of what they actually imposed, but we're asked to believe that this was dropped on a whim in order to mimic the Chinese authoritarian response.
I would definitely vote in favour of assisted dying in the U.K.
Having been one of his carers and seen my Dad go through and what mesothelioma did to him, well you would not wish it on your worst enemy. When he eventually did pass away at home, I had no tears left, I was just thankful that his fight was finally over.
Having been one of his carers and seen my Dad go through and what mesothelioma did to him, well you would not wish it on your worst enemy. When he eventually did pass away at home, I had no tears left, I was just thankful that his fight was finally over.
totally agree Slippy...
it's inhumane asking people to suffer like that...
and for their loved ones to have to sit and watch it.
it's inhumane asking people to suffer like that...
and for their loved ones to have to sit and watch it.
Mar 28, 2024 -- 9:43AM, HappyHibby wrote:
i've had to end the lives of two of my pets...hardest thing i've had to do...but it would have been 10 times harder watching them slowly evaporate in front of my very eyes...watching them in pain every second of every day...not being able to eat...not being able to control when they go to the toilet...that would have been utterly humiliating for them and soul destroying for me.
Same here HH, Happened to me last week, i cried like a baby for nearly a week,
But couldn't see her suffer, and i'd be the same with humans, watching my poor mum die with cancer at 57 years old,
suffer for the 6 weeks she knew she had left, Then watching my mother-in-law 18 months ago from
dementia , i thought how wicked keeping them alive. Its a sad state of affairs
sorry to hear that dambuster...
you will get over it eventually...
i couldn't speak to anyone for 4 days when i had to let my two go...
even now i have my moments tbh...
just the way it is i suppose...
i know i did the right thing by them tho...
pity we can't do the same for humans...
just yet.
you will get over it eventually...
i couldn't speak to anyone for 4 days when i had to let my two go...
even now i have my moments tbh...
just the way it is i suppose...
i know i did the right thing by them tho...
pity we can't do the same for humans...
just yet.
think i saw a Youguv poll on BBC News...
68% said they wanted the law to change...
obviously there is a huge Q around how the law should change...
but i reckon if there was a Referendum some sort of assisted dying process would be the winner...
as usual it's the clown politicians who fk everything up.
68% said they wanted the law to change...
obviously there is a huge Q around how the law should change...
but i reckon if there was a Referendum some sort of assisted dying process would be the winner...
as usual it's the clown politicians who fk everything up.
I think if the decision to euthanise is solely made by the sick person and not somebody else thro' coercion then I'm all for it. I'd like the same for myself too if I was seriously or terminally ill, and in constant pain or badly disabled and my quality of life is severely depleted eg in a vegetative state.
I hope a new law could be formulated and enacted to accommodate the sick or disabled person.
I hope a new law could be formulated and enacted to accommodate the sick or disabled person.
Mar 28, 2024 -- 5:59PM, HappyHibby wrote:
sorry to hear that dambuster...you will get over it eventually...i couldn't speak to anyone for 4 days when i had to let my two go...even now i have my moments tbh...just the way it is i suppose...i know i did the right thing by them tho...pity we can't do the same for humans...just yet.
Got her ashes back today and had another cry, 
but as the kids said, she's back home now dad.
Even my dog would say, 'Get a grip old boy'.
yes i've got both my dog's ashes on the sideboard tbh dambuster...
some folk think it's daft but i find it comforting...
nowt wrong with a wee cry about it...
as i say i sometimes still get a bit teary when i see something on the telly tbh...
as long as you've got good memories that's all that counts.
some folk think it's daft but i find it comforting...
nowt wrong with a wee cry about it...
as i say i sometimes still get a bit teary when i see something on the telly tbh...
as long as you've got good memories that's all that counts.
Mar 28, 2024 -- 7:20PM, HappyHibby wrote:
yes i've got both my dog's ashes on the sideboard tbh dambuster...some folk think it's daft but i find it comforting...nowt wrong with a wee cry about it...as i say i sometimes still get a bit teary when i see something on the telly tbh...as long as you've got good memories that's all that counts.
Thanks HH
for anyone interested in all this i thoroughly recommend you watch this...
________________________________________________________________________________
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001y4xf
________________________________________________________________________________
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001y4xf
The 'Tonight' programme last night highlighting the plight of hospices being underfunded and having to make staff redundant, well, the assisted suicide bill might be able to help out there...
A heartbreaking programme Mr B. Insufficient funds to employ incredibly dedicated staff.
Partner watched it last night hibb she’s all for it,not a subject for me tbh,bottle merchant when it comes to thiis having witnessed three family members pass….
Insufficient funds….fkn diabolical in this day and age….
I was almost in tears at the end of the programme. We all know successive governments should be ashamed, but this programme left me extremely angry. I have experiences of hospices & assisted dying & those dedicated to helping in one's hour of need are above being angels! And how are they rewarded- with a P45!
bottle merchant when it comes to thiis having witnessed three family members pass….
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
passed in a horrible painful way aceform ?
if that is the case then you should be all for this ridiculous scenario to end where we let people in the last 6 months of their lives to die in constant pain and agony imv...
it only applies to England and Wales and in all honesty i ain't sure what Holyrood is doing about this...
but England and Wales proceeding with this can only be a good thing imv.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
passed in a horrible painful way aceform ?
if that is the case then you should be all for this ridiculous scenario to end where we let people in the last 6 months of their lives to die in constant pain and agony imv...
it only applies to England and Wales and in all honesty i ain't sure what Holyrood is doing about this...
but England and Wales proceeding with this can only be a good thing imv.
Mum and sister both suffer the dreaded….old man passed alone 1987…..
Driver inserted is a form of the subject in Q
Driver inserted is a form of the subject in Q
Put it this way I wouldn’t want to be in the position where I was incapable,so my answer is yes hibb…..
Andrew Mitchell just said in the HoC there won’t be a slippery slope unless MPs agree to one. 
Slicer, as Peter Hitchens wrote months back:
"As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable."
"As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable."
The circus on the Thames have always been cold towards the fodder,end of life care,or any care has always been underfunded….they always scrounge for cheap labour…tbh….
Peter Hitchens: 17/3/2024:
"Supporters of assisted dying need to grasp that they will almost certainly get more than they say that they want. You will have to judge whether they really are as moderate as they claim, or whether they reckon – with good reason – that legalising assisted death will allow them to expand their scheme in ways that would horrify many now.
The campaign to legalise abortion on demand was never, in my view, frank about its true aims. Nor is the similar campaign for assisted dying.
Reform of the abortion laws in 1967 was supposed to help a minority of women trapped by terrible circumstances and a brutal, unforgiving law into dangerous actions. In Britain, the argument of safety was paramount. This version is still current. The TV series Call The Midwife has more than once included vivid, emotive and one-sided storylines in which the pre-1967 law is portrayed as unjustified, harsh, inflexible and even fatal.
Claims were made in the 1960s that between 50,000 and 250,000 women were at risk each year from botched illegal abortions. Such cases were tragic but there is little hard evidence that these horrors were as common as claimed.
In April 1966, the British Medical Journal carried a report from the Council of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. It argued from known figures: ‘If there are 100,000 criminal (including self-induced) abortions being performed annually, this means that they are attended by a mortality rate of only 0.3 per 1,000. The risks of criminal abortion are established to be high, so the known number of deaths suggests that the total number of such cases must be considerably less than that alleged.’ The College also noted that ‘therapeutic’ abortions, based on the pre-1967 law, were being carried out in significant numbers in NHS hospitals – 2,800 in 1962. Many more were taking place in private clinics.
Now legal abortions run at almost 215,000 a year in England and Wales. They show no signs of diminishing despite (or perhaps because of) decades of sex education, the ready availability of contraceptives and the ‘morning-after pill’. Many abortions are now carried out with little medical intervention, by the use of ‘pills by post’. And this huge action – in which I believe a human life is destroyed – may very soon be freed from any further legal restraint. A planned amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, which has wide support among MPs, would abolish sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 plus the 1929 Infant Life (Preservation) Act. Its effect would be that ‘no offence is committed by a woman acting in relation to her own pregnancy’.
Even some liberals think this goes too far. I think it is a warning of how far assisted dying will go, if we let it happen. Sir Keir Starmer is promising what is called a free vote. That is, one in which MPs have no need to tell voters what they plan to do before they do it. But they are under huge pressure from liberal conformism to support assisted dying.
There is another worrying aspect. Until recently, abortion advocates at least claimed to think disposing of an unborn person was bad and should be uncommon. Its American supporters, notably Bill and Hillary Clinton, proclaimed in the 1990s their aim was to make abortion ‘safe, legal… and rare’.
Interestingly, modern feminist advocates of abortion reject any suggestion that it should be ‘rare’. Amelia Bonow, a co-founder of the pro-abortion-rights group Shout Your Abortion has said: ‘I cannot think of a less compelling way to advocate for something than saying that it should be rare. And anyone who uses that phrase is operating from the assumption that abortion is a bad thing.’ In 2012, the US Democratic Party dropped the word ‘rare’ from the abortion section of its official policy platform.
I suspect we are dealing, in the case of abortion and assisted dying, with something much deeper than compassion for the suffering. A new anti-religion, the belief that above all things we should control our own bodies, has rushed into the space left by the death of Christianity. You will hear it all the time if you challenge any modern cause, from drug taking and abortion to the transgender movement: ‘What right have you to tell me what to do with my own body?’
But in many cases those who take this view are putting themselves in danger, from drugs or from invasive medical procedures they may one day regret. The losers in almost all such cases are the close families of those involved. The law, and society, will no longer support them in any pleading they may make.
This gives force to the warnings of those who argue assisted dying in this country will rapidly copy the frightening system in Canada. By 2022, that country was ending the lives of 13,200 people a year, 4.1 per cent of its annual deaths.
The unborn baby is short of defenders when the case for abortion is made. He or she has no voice and is regarded as not yet human by many pro-abortionists. But how much voice will the chronically sick have if it becomes legal to snuff them out?
Many feel guilty about the burden they place on their loved ones. As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable.
We have dehumanised the unwanted unborn and are about to dehumanise the inconvenient old and ill. Who’s next?"
"Supporters of assisted dying need to grasp that they will almost certainly get more than they say that they want. You will have to judge whether they really are as moderate as they claim, or whether they reckon – with good reason – that legalising assisted death will allow them to expand their scheme in ways that would horrify many now.
The campaign to legalise abortion on demand was never, in my view, frank about its true aims. Nor is the similar campaign for assisted dying.
Reform of the abortion laws in 1967 was supposed to help a minority of women trapped by terrible circumstances and a brutal, unforgiving law into dangerous actions. In Britain, the argument of safety was paramount. This version is still current. The TV series Call The Midwife has more than once included vivid, emotive and one-sided storylines in which the pre-1967 law is portrayed as unjustified, harsh, inflexible and even fatal.
Claims were made in the 1960s that between 50,000 and 250,000 women were at risk each year from botched illegal abortions. Such cases were tragic but there is little hard evidence that these horrors were as common as claimed.
In April 1966, the British Medical Journal carried a report from the Council of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. It argued from known figures: ‘If there are 100,000 criminal (including self-induced) abortions being performed annually, this means that they are attended by a mortality rate of only 0.3 per 1,000. The risks of criminal abortion are established to be high, so the known number of deaths suggests that the total number of such cases must be considerably less than that alleged.’ The College also noted that ‘therapeutic’ abortions, based on the pre-1967 law, were being carried out in significant numbers in NHS hospitals – 2,800 in 1962. Many more were taking place in private clinics.
Now legal abortions run at almost 215,000 a year in England and Wales. They show no signs of diminishing despite (or perhaps because of) decades of sex education, the ready availability of contraceptives and the ‘morning-after pill’. Many abortions are now carried out with little medical intervention, by the use of ‘pills by post’. And this huge action – in which I believe a human life is destroyed – may very soon be freed from any further legal restraint. A planned amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, which has wide support among MPs, would abolish sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 plus the 1929 Infant Life (Preservation) Act. Its effect would be that ‘no offence is committed by a woman acting in relation to her own pregnancy’.
Even some liberals think this goes too far. I think it is a warning of how far assisted dying will go, if we let it happen. Sir Keir Starmer is promising what is called a free vote. That is, one in which MPs have no need to tell voters what they plan to do before they do it. But they are under huge pressure from liberal conformism to support assisted dying.
There is another worrying aspect. Until recently, abortion advocates at least claimed to think disposing of an unborn person was bad and should be uncommon. Its American supporters, notably Bill and Hillary Clinton, proclaimed in the 1990s their aim was to make abortion ‘safe, legal… and rare’.
Interestingly, modern feminist advocates of abortion reject any suggestion that it should be ‘rare’. Amelia Bonow, a co-founder of the pro-abortion-rights group Shout Your Abortion has said: ‘I cannot think of a less compelling way to advocate for something than saying that it should be rare. And anyone who uses that phrase is operating from the assumption that abortion is a bad thing.’ In 2012, the US Democratic Party dropped the word ‘rare’ from the abortion section of its official policy platform.
I suspect we are dealing, in the case of abortion and assisted dying, with something much deeper than compassion for the suffering. A new anti-religion, the belief that above all things we should control our own bodies, has rushed into the space left by the death of Christianity. You will hear it all the time if you challenge any modern cause, from drug taking and abortion to the transgender movement: ‘What right have you to tell me what to do with my own body?’
But in many cases those who take this view are putting themselves in danger, from drugs or from invasive medical procedures they may one day regret. The losers in almost all such cases are the close families of those involved. The law, and society, will no longer support them in any pleading they may make.
This gives force to the warnings of those who argue assisted dying in this country will rapidly copy the frightening system in Canada. By 2022, that country was ending the lives of 13,200 people a year, 4.1 per cent of its annual deaths.
The unborn baby is short of defenders when the case for abortion is made. He or she has no voice and is regarded as not yet human by many pro-abortionists. But how much voice will the chronically sick have if it becomes legal to snuff them out?
Many feel guilty about the burden they place on their loved ones. As a society we badly fail to provide the palliative end-of-life care which would surely be the best answer to the needless suffering visited on so many in their final months.
But I think it is worse than that. These changes are a retreat from Christian civilisation into a Brave New World where all who get in the way become disposable.
We have dehumanised the unwanted unborn and are about to dehumanise the inconvenient old and ill. Who’s next?"
I wonder the 'Sarco Suicide Pod' will become legal in this country?
Advocates say it provides an option not reliant on drugs or doctors, and that it expands access to euthanasia as the portable device can be 3D-printed and assembled at home.
There ya go, no need to travel to Switzerland, just assemble it in your own home.
"Several arrested after woman dies in 'suicide pod'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8144v9pveo
Advocates say it provides an option not reliant on drugs or doctors, and that it expands access to euthanasia as the portable device can be 3D-printed and assembled at home.
There ya go, no need to travel to Switzerland, just assemble it in your own home.
"Several arrested after woman dies in 'suicide pod'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8144v9pveo
Put it this way I wouldn’t want to be in the position where I was incapable,so my answer is yes hibb…..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it will take a while but i hope you are correct aceform...
not many things scare me but dying a horrible painful death is definitely one of them...
and seeing a close one going through the same cannot be right if the person themselves doesn't want it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it will take a while but i hope you are correct aceform...
not many things scare me but dying a horrible painful death is definitely one of them...
and seeing a close one going through the same cannot be right if the person themselves doesn't want it.
If you're wondering how the Sarco Pod works:
The Sarco pod (also known as Pegasos and has been referred to as a "suicide pod"[1]) is a euthanasia device or machine consisting of a 3D-printed detachable capsule mounted on a stand that contains a canister of liquid nitrogen to die by suicide through inert gas asphyxiation. "Sarco" is short for "sarcophagus".[2][3] It is used in conjunction with an inert gas (nitrogen) which decreases oxygen levels rapidly which prevents panic, sense of suffocation and struggling before unconsciousness, known as the hypercapnic alarm response[4]: 45 caused by the presence of high carbon dioxide concentrations in the blood.[4] The Sarco was invented by euthanasia campaigner Philip Nitschke in 2017. Nitschke said in 2021 that he sought and received legal advice about the device's legality in Switzerland.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarco_pod
The Sarco pod (also known as Pegasos and has been referred to as a "suicide pod"[1]) is a euthanasia device or machine consisting of a 3D-printed detachable capsule mounted on a stand that contains a canister of liquid nitrogen to die by suicide through inert gas asphyxiation. "Sarco" is short for "sarcophagus".[2][3] It is used in conjunction with an inert gas (nitrogen) which decreases oxygen levels rapidly which prevents panic, sense of suffocation and struggling before unconsciousness, known as the hypercapnic alarm response[4]: 45 caused by the presence of high carbon dioxide concentrations in the blood.[4] The Sarco was invented by euthanasia campaigner Philip Nitschke in 2017. Nitschke said in 2021 that he sought and received legal advice about the device's legality in Switzerland.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarco_pod
You can take a pet to the Vet which is suffering big time and can’t tell anyone how bad…..no difference tbh..
Some people have more respect for animals over humans….strange but true tbh….
Some people have more respect for animals over humans….strange but true tbh….
It could be the future, you're not as mobile as you once were and you ask the local authority / social services for a ramp or a wet room to be put in, for example, and they reply...Sorry, we're not able to due to all available public funds being required to finance the ongoing war in Ukraine, but the good news is we can send you a Sarco pod for free, and if you're not able to assemble it yourself, not to worry, we'll send one of our AI robots round to set it up and then help you into it.
Politicians are scared to death it will open the door to people choosing death which would put pressure on wages.
We have seen it over and over again.
The church lies out it’s arse in an attempt to convince you you must suffer in life, while holding their hand out for contributions to the church
The state, following each mass plague installed laws that prohibited supply and demand raising wages of workers who survived.
People have decreasing value over time, their lives will just get worse as they will be reliant on the state.
Not enough housing, decreasing share of wealth following AI
And they say women can decide what to do with their bodies (ie kill the foetus) yet a sane individual can’t choose not to exist.
Clown world
We have seen it over and over again.
The church lies out it’s arse in an attempt to convince you you must suffer in life, while holding their hand out for contributions to the church
The state, following each mass plague installed laws that prohibited supply and demand raising wages of workers who survived.
People have decreasing value over time, their lives will just get worse as they will be reliant on the state.
Not enough housing, decreasing share of wealth following AI
And they say women can decide what to do with their bodies (ie kill the foetus) yet a sane individual can’t choose not to exist.
Clown world
The 'plebs' are going to be surplus to requirements as the 4th Industrial Revolution gets under away and AI takes over an estimated 95% of all jobs.
And as one of the mouthpieces for the WEF puts it, once the labour of what will be the "useless eaters" is no longer required, their political power will be gone.
Think about current policies: large areas of farmland being turned over to wind turbines, farmers being offered incentives to turn their land into rewilding, and lately the inheritance tax that will put some of them out of business.
It's as if someone knows, despite an ever-increasing population, that we won't be needing as much food in future...
And as one of the mouthpieces for the WEF puts it, once the labour of what will be the "useless eaters" is no longer required, their political power will be gone.
Think about current policies: large areas of farmland being turned over to wind turbines, farmers being offered incentives to turn their land into rewilding, and lately the inheritance tax that will put some of them out of business.
It's as if someone knows, despite an ever-increasing population, that we won't be needing as much food in future...
An interesting comment Mr B. Where humanity is concerned with regard to the subject whichever way it evolves after the bill being passed, we shall see the best & we shall see the worst! That'she reality of life & of course death!
No more waiting six months for rich Aunt Fanny to pop off now.
Mar 28, 2024 -- 6:56PM, impossible123 wrote:
I think if the decision to euthanise is solely made by the sick person and not somebody else thro' coercion then I'm all for it. I'd like the same for myself too if I was seriously or terminally ill, and in constant pain or badly disabled and my quality of life is severely depleted eg in a vegetative state.I hope a new law could be formulated and enacted to accommodate the sick or disabled person.
I totally agree with that.
I really cannot see what the problem is.
How would a vegetable be able to make the decision?
what happens next...
-----------------------------
It will now move on to be scrutinised at committee stage, where it will be scrutinised line by line by a smaller group of MPs.
Report stage then follows, allowing any MPs to propose amendments. The Commons Speaker will decide which ones are debated and voted on.
After this, MPs get a a final chance to vote for or against the bill at what is known as third reading - and some may change their mind about it - after which all five stages must be repeated by peers in the House of Lords.
If peers do not make any further changes, the bill would be sent to the King for Royal Assent, which formalises the law as an act of Parliament.
-----------------------------
It will now move on to be scrutinised at committee stage, where it will be scrutinised line by line by a smaller group of MPs.
Report stage then follows, allowing any MPs to propose amendments. The Commons Speaker will decide which ones are debated and voted on.
After this, MPs get a a final chance to vote for or against the bill at what is known as third reading - and some may change their mind about it - after which all five stages must be repeated by peers in the House of Lords.
If peers do not make any further changes, the bill would be sent to the King for Royal Assent, which formalises the law as an act of Parliament.
not looked at it myself but here is the bill if anyone wants to scrutinize it...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10123/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10123/
and if you live in Scotland here is the bill going through Holyrood just now...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/s6/assisted-dying-for-terminally-ill-adults-scotland-bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/s6/assisted-dying-for-terminally-ill-adults-scotland-bill
Mesothelioma killed my Dad. It's the asbestos based cancer that is incurable and affected those who worked in the building trade especially, from the 50's onwards.
He battled it for 18 months and it was an extremely vicious and very cruel way to die, his suffering will haunt me and the rest of my family for always.
No question that if we could have ended his pain earlier then we would have.
He battled it for 18 months and it was an extremely vicious and very cruel way to die, his suffering will haunt me and the rest of my family for always.
No question that if we could have ended his pain earlier then we would have.
Did you make a claim Slippy?
It is a miserable end with many dying before they even get the compo due to them.
By the time it's diagnosed sufferers get around 18 months +/- left gasping for air and all manner of other diabolical stuff.
It is a miserable end with many dying before they even get the compo due to them.
By the time it's diagnosed sufferers get around 18 months +/- left gasping for air and all manner of other diabolical stuff.
By the time it's diagnosed sufferers get around 18 months +/- left gasping for air and all manner of other diabolical stuff.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hard to believe there are folk out there who are happy to see them suffer in pain and agony at the end of their days...
and folk close to them have to witness it too...
hideous.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hard to believe there are folk out there who are happy to see them suffer in pain and agony at the end of their days...
and folk close to them have to witness it too...
hideous.
hard to believe there are folk out there who are happy to see them suffer in pain and agony at the end of their days...
Are you able to produce a single post where someone said they were "happy" to see people suffer under such circumstances? No you can't, so why are you twisting words like that?
People's concerns have been well summarised here in this table, which challenges the official line:
https://x.com/ddhitchens/status/1862452287039311934/photo/1
Are you able to produce a single post where someone said they were "happy" to see people suffer under such circumstances? No you can't, so why are you twisting words like that?
People's concerns have been well summarised here in this table, which challenges the official line:
https://x.com/ddhitchens/status/1862452287039311934/photo/1
Poor choice of words although not meant as it came out George.
I spent 3 days watching my parent die at home until they took their last breath.
not something I'd wish on anyone
I spent 3 days watching my parent die at home until they took their last breath.
not something I'd wish on anyone
no it's not a poor choice of words...
this is the chance to change things in Scotland + England + Wales...
yet folk are saying things like 'this is a terrible day'...
that tells me they are happy to see folk suffering when there is no need in the last 6 months of their lives...
i'm NOT happy to see it so i want things changed.
this is the chance to change things in Scotland + England + Wales...
yet folk are saying things like 'this is a terrible day'...
that tells me they are happy to see folk suffering when there is no need in the last 6 months of their lives...
i'm NOT happy to see it so i want things changed.
i saw some old biddy on BBC News earlier...
she is attached to some group or other...
terrible day...
doom and gloom...
we're writing suicide notes for folk...
all this utter garbage quite frankly...
it's to allow folk who are DYING (and in the last 6 months of their lives) to stop their pain and suffering (and that of their loved ones)...
how on earth anyone could be against that is mind boggling to me.
she is attached to some group or other...
terrible day...
doom and gloom...
we're writing suicide notes for folk...
all this utter garbage quite frankly...
it's to allow folk who are DYING (and in the last 6 months of their lives) to stop their pain and suffering (and that of their loved ones)...
how on earth anyone could be against that is mind boggling to me.
yet folk are saying things like 'this is a terrible day'...
that tells me they are happy to see folk suffering when there is no need in the last 6 months of their lives...
fo0k£ing eejyit
that tells me they are happy to see folk suffering when there is no need in the last 6 months of their lives...
fo0k£ing eejyit
You reckon I and my siblings were 'Happy' to watch our parent die over the space of 3 days being denied any water, slowly ebbing away with the aid of a morphine solution?
you're a cxxxt
fxxk orrfff
you're a cxxxt
fxxk orrfff
you've got the wrong end of the stick completely leif...
but thanx for the kind words.
but thanx for the kind words.
You could easily have replaced the word 'Happy' with content but you stuck with 'Happy'
yep, happy to maintain you're a cxxt
yep, happy to maintain you're a cxxt
it's to allow folk who are DYING (and in the last 6 months of their lives) to stop their pain and suffering (and that of their loved ones)...
As quoted in that table, according to experts quoted in the Financial Times on Wednesday, there is a 32% accuracy rate when predictions are given for a prognosis in terms of months.
And there is a recent high profile instance of where a prognosis has been given - Sir Chris Hoy - they know exactly what stage of cancer he has - between two and four years they say, they can't even pin it down to months, at least at this point in time.
Regarding "pain and suffering", as was claimed on the Tonight programme last night, it's a postcode lottery regarding palliative care, but palliative care is THE counterargument to assisted suicide, if society can offer an excellent care pathway for people nearing the end of their lives, then no-one should have to suffer unduly.
As quoted in that table, according to experts quoted in the Financial Times on Wednesday, there is a 32% accuracy rate when predictions are given for a prognosis in terms of months.
And there is a recent high profile instance of where a prognosis has been given - Sir Chris Hoy - they know exactly what stage of cancer he has - between two and four years they say, they can't even pin it down to months, at least at this point in time.
Regarding "pain and suffering", as was claimed on the Tonight programme last night, it's a postcode lottery regarding palliative care, but palliative care is THE counterargument to assisted suicide, if society can offer an excellent care pathway for people nearing the end of their lives, then no-one should have to suffer unduly.
if i was given a '6 months to live' diagnosis...
and i couldn't breathe and was in constant pain and agony...
and folk close to me were in pain seeing me like that...
100% i would want to end my life...
absolutely no doubt about it...
why anyone would want to carry on is something i do not get at all.
and i couldn't breathe and was in constant pain and agony...
and folk close to me were in pain seeing me like that...
100% i would want to end my life...
absolutely no doubt about it...
why anyone would want to carry on is something i do not get at all.
It's no surprise to me that the likes of Starmer and Sunak have voted in favour, and Matt Hancock voicing his support for it, because when I hear...Oh, it's just the terminally ill with less than 6 months to live, you know what I also hear?
Oh, it's just three weeks to flatten the curve
And where did that end up?
Starmer, funnily enough, calling for a potentially dangerous potion to be mandated for all.
Care workers being sacked for refusing it.
Doctors and nurses 'refusinks' being threatened with the sack.
DNR notices being placed on people with learning difficulties.
So based on their 'previous', I don't believe for one second this will be the end of it, and we know which way it's gone in Canada, for example, with its scope being expanded to include mental health patients.
Oh, it's just three weeks to flatten the curve
And where did that end up?
Starmer, funnily enough, calling for a potentially dangerous potion to be mandated for all.
Care workers being sacked for refusing it.
Doctors and nurses 'refusinks' being threatened with the sack.
DNR notices being placed on people with learning difficulties.
So based on their 'previous', I don't believe for one second this will be the end of it, and we know which way it's gone in Canada, for example, with its scope being expanded to include mental health patients.
And speaking of Starmer, has Bob Moran nailed it again?
https://x.com/bobscartoons/status/1862090909854073079/photo/1
https://x.com/bobscartoons/status/1862090909854073079/photo/1
Canada introduced assisted dying in 2016 for adults with a terminal illness. In 2021, it was extended to people with no terminal illness and the disabled.
On 17 March 2027, anyone with a serious mental health problem will also be eligible.
https://news.sky.com/story/canadas-assisted-dying-programme-has-gone-too-far-says-lawyer-who-tried-to-take-his-own-life-13260546
On 17 March 2027, anyone with a serious mental health problem will also be eligible.
https://news.sky.com/story/canadas-assisted-dying-programme-has-gone-too-far-says-lawyer-who-tried-to-take-his-own-life-13260546
the pro-suicide politicians and campaigners would have us believe everyone is constantly worried about dying in pain. Is this true?
main causes of death in the UK are dementia-related, the big C and heart-related. Dementia patients wouldn't have legal capacity and if you are so worried about getting the big C and dying in pain, cut out the ****, booze, unhealthy diet, etc.
main causes of death in the UK are dementia-related, the big C and heart-related. Dementia patients wouldn't have legal capacity and if you are so worried about getting the big C and dying in pain, cut out the ****, booze, unhealthy diet, etc.
A substantial number of cancer sufferers do not smoke or drink or eat rubbish. It can be genetic. Watch a horse with a broken leg lying on a course or running while it dangles uselessly in the air or that poor horse that suffered a heart attack struggling after winning live on ITV last week. Are any of you telling me you wouldn't relieve the suffering? This is a very difficult personal subject. If any of you had seen the suffering I witnessed in my career & personal life, you wouldn't think twice.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539