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After Today's Results Why In Heavens Name Would Any Owner Have Their Horses
After Today's Results Why In Heavens Name Would Any Owner Have Their Horses
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Replies: 106
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a couple of Irish trainers buying in horses from France for a few rich guys. Not sure how great that is for Irish racing.
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Mullins had 10 of the runners in the last. Getting Ridiculous.
Very soon no English trainers will bother with Cheltenham. |
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A. T. Plenty of English trainers have bought them as well for huge money ask Paul , thing is they don't know how to train them..
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English trainers cant get hold of the magic carrots
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Really I thought they found tons of them one day in a certain Newmarket yard...
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10-4 10-4 over and out.
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Anyway as I was saying..
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curious quote from Tony McCoy
"I think it's competition," said McCoy on ITV Racing. "I went to Jim Bolger's as an apprentice and you'd Christy Roche, Kevin Manning, Willie Supple, Ted Durcan, Seamie Heffernan and Paul Carberry there. "I hated it at the time but they definitely made me better. I think the competition in Ireland is stronger, it's more competitive and it's not as diluted, and that's why they're dominating." do you think he knows it's horses that do the running? |
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I think he was giving an example. But there's stiff competition for all aspects - trainers, jockeys, horses, workriders, ... It all adds up.
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he's talking rubbish - that was 30 years ago when the Irish would get perhaps 5 winners each festival. It's only in the last 10 years when the numbers have jumped.
there's 2 trainers mopping up who have a few owners with very deep pockets. you might as well say Ballydoyle's success is down to strong competition. |
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I have to disagree with you, at least in part. I think one of the main reasons for the Irish success, especially at the novice level, is that the horses have been battle hardened by running against other good horses in Ireland, which does not happen very much in GB. GB-trained horses do better by the time they get to open races (at least relatively) because by then they have been matured through more competitive racing.
There are two dominant trainers in Ireland yes, but there is a very good supporting cast with the likes of Harrington, Cromwell, Meade, de Bromhead, and others. Meanwhile, Mullins at least runs several of his good horses against each other in big races, which appears to help them. |
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and this has only started in the last ten years?
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When did Ch start the 'irish village' thing for the stable staff + making stabling a horse for the festival much better for all - I'm thinking its about 10-15 years back? Obv its not the only factor but it 's never mentioned and could be the small % that make a bit of a difference, 3,4 winners a year and plenty of placed maybe. I bet Mullins wouldn't't send as many darts over if the stabling was as pre 2000!
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When you combine it with the money, which has been the catalyst, yes. When Ireland got rich, bloodstock started staying in Ireland rather than being sold to GB. Much of the best French bloodstock cane to GB 15 years ago, now it it sold to Ireland. I do agree with you that a lot of Ireland's success in NH racing stems from having a few owners with very deep pockets, but the whole cycle is mutually reenforcing - success breeds success, to put it simply. It's built upon a deep (human) talent base. And it's notable that quite a few of those rich owners are based in GB (e.g. the Riccis, Kenny Alexander), but they choose to have their horses trained in Ireland.
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it's just Mullins, Elliot and to a lesser extent De Bromhead backed by billionaire owners buying up the French-breds - winning more races and prize money in Ireland than all the rest put together. Take them out and there's no strength in depth in Irish NH racing which there would be if McCoy's "strong competition" theory held true.
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But there is substantial competition within and between those yards, as well as with the secondary but high-quality yards. Look at the DRF - Mullins had 5+ runners in several of the Grade 1s. Several were won by stable second/third strings. 5-10 years ago Mullins did used to shield his horses from others in his yard, but now, with a bigger & better operation and more big owners, he doesn't. Of course if one of those big yards should "stop" for any reason, it would leave an enormous hole.
If I can turn your point round, why do you think those billionaires spend their money on racing in Ireland rather than England? |
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That's a circular argument. They send their horses to Mullins, Elliot and De Bromhead.
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If you are with a trainer in England you have to prey the rain stays away in Festival week a d that isn’t a likely thing to happen.
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Aintree in April is a better place for ground normally for them.
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McCoy was also talking about the jockeys as well as the trainers to be fair. It's been said many times but you've gone from Walsh and Geraghty riding for your two biggest trainers to Cobden and De Boinville. No problem when you're on horses like Constitution Hill but tactically they're way behind. Imop Johnny Burke would ride at least the same amount of winners for Nicholls as Cobden does and he had to leave Ireland as he wasn't good enough to make a real living off mounts in Ireland due to the competition. People laugh at the idea but plenty of big owners want their horses ridden by a top jockey which is another factor in why certain big name trainers don't get the horses they used to.
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It's to do with breeding, and the English buy horses which are bred in Ireland.
You can't blame them for cherry picking the best for themselves. The idea that Irish trainers are better than English trainers is laughable. If training winners was all do with skill, then the Irish wouldn't train many winners. Make no mistake, it's the quality of their stock, not the quality of their trainers that gets them winners. |
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Rather:
You can't blame the Irish for cherry picking and keeping the best horses for themselves. |
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The owners of Stage Star and Notlongtillmay can point to one good reason to have a horse trained in GB - it gets ridden by Cobden or Wedge rather than Russell or Townend.
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As long as it wins me money it can be trained in Outer Mongolia for all i care.
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Another English so called great is beaten by the incredible IRISH ....
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What exactly is the difference between doping regime between the 2 countries. There have been regular reports coming out of Ireland of small trainers being prosecuted.
Jim Bolger had something to say,not very flattering it was. Any other sport this would be a major talking point,and why Irish trained horses were so dominant,but everyone in the media have their snouts in the trough-why rock the boat? |
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Plenty of Irish 'hotpots' getting beat.
All this bragging about Irish winners means nothing if you didnt back them. |
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You would've thought that they could find a Rod Stewart record to play in the winners enclosure for that last one
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Mecca..
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Anyway, my coffee's cold and I'm getting told
That I gotta get back to work So when the sun goes low and you're home all alone Think of me and try not to laugh and I wear it well I don't object if you call collect 'Cause I ain't forgetting that you were once mine But I blew it without even tryin' Now I'm eatin' my heart out tryin' to get back to you |
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Good man Jinxy1..
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First 6 home Irish trained, as I was saying...
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But did you back the winner? Thats what matters! Cant see your pre race bet workrider?
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No Jinxy1 backed the 3nd sadly . The thread is not about what I back its about the difference between Irish trainers and their English counterparts in case you didn't notice and the reasons to have your horse trained in Ireland..
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Before today there had been 265 Irish trained runners that ran in the UK this year, less than 11% success rate and a huge loss of 127 points and a ROI loss of a huge 48%.
So tell me again, why would I send a horse to be trained in Ireland? |
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Jinxy1 I think you are forgetting that your stats omit the AMOUNT of English runners there were in those races , I think you'll find the Irish horses had a huge numbers disadvantage .
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But if you are so superior, as you claim, then it shouldnt matter?
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That's like saying we'll have 5 to 1 in most races but we still expect you to win
..How many races have English trainers won in Ireland this year ? |
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By comparison, British trainers have sent horses over to run in Ireland and this last four years actually have a better strike rate of nearly 15%, with a slight loss of less than 3% ROI, using your own logic workrdier, it makes them far superior trainers to the Irish!
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43 winners from the last 290 since 1st Jan 2020.
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