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Gosden and Dettori

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By:
Cardinal Scott
When: 27 Jun 22 19:06
Luca Cumani admitted during that Racing UK pandemic long interview that he was pressurized to run Barathea in Derby, almost certain the same thing happened in 1987 when his only other runner had a 150/1 SP Water Boatman.

Ajdal did for Don't Forget Me and Most Welcome in Craven Stakes so it was never a case of him not being ready for 2000 Guineas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZFeCu3U_o4
By:
impossible123
When: 27 Jun 22 19:30
Strad was withdrawn on very soft going on the day of a big race (possibly Goodwood 2021), but beat Nayef Road comprehensively in the soft; Order Of St George and Highland Reel were riding shotgun for Found in the race where Postponed ran his race at Meydan, and had a race too many.

Gosden would not run Jack Hobbs or Cracksman in The Arc despite the ground were in their favour because of Golden Horn (then drawn car park), and Enable (2nd Arc/regressing) just hung on from Sea Of Class (drawn car park) respectively.

I agree the win by Sottsass (comprehensively beaten by Waldgeist the year before) in 2020 was a mediocre renewal; Strad finished behind Enable (on a hattrick) when the latter was regressing in the same race. He also finished behind Anthony Van Dyck and Ghaiyyath prior to this race.

What I'm saying is Stradivarius ought not to have run in 2020 Arc post comprehensively beaten by Ghaiyyath and Anthony Van Dyck. I think had Sir Cecil not trained Frankel the horse would have run in the Epsom Derby.

Mr Harwood lost the patronage of his big owners after he stuck with Starkey post Dancing Brave's valiant effort at Epsom. He now runs and owns Harwoods Group of luxurious cars.
By:
Cardinal Scott
When: 27 Jun 22 19:42
I don't think that is right Impossible on Guy Harwood, Greville Starkey retired in 1989 when Guy Harwood had 109 winners - the drop off occurred immediately after that and for the rest of his training days.  It was a steady and constant decline until he packed it in.


He had many of the top owners for 1990 and a large string and then they started to drop off. 

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/trainer/405/g-harwood/horses
By:
impossible123
When: 27 Jun 22 20:04
You may be right. My recollection was Mr Harwood was getting fewer and fewer expensive yearlings from the petrol money clan of owners. I think the then competition between the big boys (more of them too) eg Cecil, Stoute, Harwood, Dunlop and Cumani were fiercer compared to present.

I saw Dancing Brave at Goodwood post Epsom where racegoers clapped at 3f marker (for Starkey) before he was replaced by Eddery. The horse looked expensive; it had a shiny and smooth coat.
By:
Gibberish
When: 27 Jun 22 20:16
CS - I do remember that Don't Forget Me was beaten in The Craven but it was after all,
only a trial and I'd suggest neither were 100% ready.

I have a recollection that Ajdal carried a 5lb penalty but I might be getting mixed up
with Lear Fan when he beat Rainbow Quest in the same race, as he defo did.

My main point is that how the fcuk can one of the greatest trainers EVER (that's not
even up for debate) mistake a champion sprinter for a Derby winner?

For that reason I've always believed there's a lot more to Ajdal's unique campaigning
than we officially know as I cannot for the life of me believe that Stoute did not know
what was under Ajdal's bonnet, and if he would've thrown Sheikh Mo under the bus by blaming
him for strangely targeting The Derby, then sprinting, he would've lost his huge patronage.

Even 35 years later, I suspect he's still taking a bullet for the team in keeping schtum,
once he'd admitted he cottoned on how Ajdal 'should've been campaigned' too late.

I've always been confident I'm right about that (confusing a sprinter for a Derby winner as
it's just not plausible) and we might learn more when Stoute retires - or maybe we'll never know.
By:
Eont
When: 28 Jun 22 13:55
I get the impression Gosden has suffered Dettori for a long time because he got the job done on the track. This is not happening enough now actually the opposite is the case.
I can think back to Dettori riding Logician to with the Ledger and complaining about being sent to ride the horse at midweek evening meeting at Newbury. He obviously felt it was beneath him and still had the hump about it.
COVID has really counted against him with the other Jockeys only riding one meeting a day they are a lot more mentally sharper. His advantage of being fresh has been eroded and with better performances elsewhere has somewhat been exposed. This has been evident a lot over the last year or so.
Lack of commitment in the mornings will not have helped. You do not know the dynamics between the younger Gosden and Dettori though you could not imagine him being happy to receive advice or instructions from the former. I noted someone mentioned about the blame Hollie Doyle in France for losing episode that has come back to haunt him.         
Gosden was not great on TV at Ascot but I think he knows he is on the wind down. He will not get anther horse like Stradivarius before he retires or the chance to train a winner for the Queen in her platinum jubilee year at Royal Ascot. I guess that was a bitter pill to swallow and it showed.
By:
second again
When: 28 Jun 22 14:05
J Tree said any true classic horse would win the July Cup.I remember M. Stoute saying G Starkey had said all year that Ajdal was a sprinter.What made him think that I have no idea.
By:
penzance
When: 28 Jun 22 21:43
Stradivarious' owners got a bit in the SL about
Dettori and the Gold Cup ride.
By:
LoyalHoncho
When: 29 Jun 22 19:21
Who?  Stoute or Starkey?
I do vividly remember the drinker - can't remember his name but he was on the telly a lot at the time ( Alistair Down maybe? ) - praising Stoute for bringing the horse back from the Derby to win the sprint Cup and likening it to genius.  Stoute's answer itself was genius in its self-deprecation when he answered "You may call it that but it doesn;t feel like genius to run a sprinter in the Derby"!
By:
Cardinal Scott
When: 30 Jun 22 02:52
Why would Greville have known? he never rode Ajdal - are you not getting confused with Soviet Star? another Sheikh Mohammed miler that dropped back and won July Cup, Greville rode that nag when he was still mileing.

A lot of milers dropped back and won July Cup in that period, Green Desert was another.
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