Altior NR

No matter how you cut it, this sort of thing just isn’t good for racing. Putting people away like he has here, just leaves a bitter taste for most

boom
boom

karma

The racing gods are having revenge on you Nicky, placepot heaven

Nicky will be kicking the dog, any passing cats and his first 2 runners today when he gets home. Horrible ground produces strange results.

Funny that’s 2 novice hurdlers at short odds de bonville has strangled in 2 weeks...flinteur last week then that juvenile today...made sure he took both today round the swamp rail as well...come racing

The elderly, male armchair experts united in their uninformed, irrelevant views. Wear a mask and pipe down - do something that makes a difference.

Sicko

The reference to "Chemical" continues to amuse and of course isn't actionable!

What an outfit this lot are De Boinville cant even be ar sed to ride out for 3rd p rick

Fitzbollix in full agreement with Hendo , there's a surprise

All informed horse people will approve, as opposed to those who bet without knowledge or understanding of the animal.

same horse people who ran vegas blue in last race yesterday

Disaster for the sport. Something has to be done, either require horses who run at Cheltenham to have run 2 or 3 times during the season or equalise prize money across all similar Grade 1s so that anyone who dodges an early season Grade 1 looks like a complete idiot.

Altior could have been an all time great and has been my favourite horse for a few years, but his conservative campaigning will limit his reputation.

Disaster for the sport hahahaha what absolute and complete nonsense.

Another thing I'd add is that wrapping horses in cotton wool undermines the premise of the sport. Either asking horses to race is fair and reasonable, or it isn't. If it's unfair to ask Altior to go 2 miles on soft ground (which he is fine on), how is it fair to ask other horses to go 3 miles on heavy?

Tell us all about it in detail Fraudy as you appear to be an intelligent person ,I await your reply .....

Larabrown 05 Dec 20 14:28 Joined: 04 Jun 20 | Topic/replies: 280 | Blogger: Larabrown's blog
All informed horse people will approve, as opposed to those who bet without knowledge or understanding of the animal.

What a lot of nonsense you speak...he ran his 2 best races/figures on going the same as today's...a 183 against min and in this race on a swamp against un de sceaux...I’d probably take up bowls or croquet if I was you, much more you’re bag I’d say

Larabrown 05 Dec 20 14:28 Joined: 04 Jun 20 | Topic/replies: 280 | Blogger: Larabrown's blog
All informed horse people will approve, as opposed to those who bet without knowledge or understanding of the animal.

And you know best do you?

All informed horse people will approve, as opposed to those who bet without knowledge or understanding of the animal.

How much is your annual subscription to Horse and Hound ?

Oh look, a couple of elderly men who think they know more than the trainer. Incredible.

Irrespective of what was said earlier in the week, the trainer thinks the going is against the horse for todays race, end of.

He/it subscribes to Whip & Leather, apparently writes a lot of the articles as well

@11K

Elderly men who know more than doctors do about medicine and more than trainers do about their horses. Sharp minds. Ha ha ha ha ha.

nothing wrong with that ground

37

Going dont look that bad at all , What time that Novice just gone round in ?

1tp spot on Nowt wrong with going ..

Come on Brown you must be a clock expert What time that done ??

Dec 5, 2020 -- 2:03PM, the old nanny ;-) wrote:

Come on Brown you must be a clock expert What time that done ??

Take the 'L' out of clock and you're much nearer the mark Nanny

Pmsl

Allmankind and Hitman were not exactly finishing like Red Marauder and Smarty

Certainly not , Six they were Sprinting up the Hill

Off time: 1:50:51 Winning time: 0.00s Appears to be one of the great mysteries of the day

In heavy ground you get dirty shirts, they all came home clean.

Ive bet Vif wont be the Going beats him , Ill lay stake  off in running hopefully

5 ran Off time: 1:50:51 Winning time: 0.00s Total SP: 109%

Rowlands says the time is below 4 minutes easily.

Nothing wrong with Going , Cracking run by winner Vif not good enough

crap bunch of 2 milers by grade 1 standards

Dec 5, 2020 -- 2:23PM, CustomCut wrote:

Rowlands says the time is below 4 minutes easily.

it isn't, its slightly below 4 dead

Still no time Mankind , Lets see what Profit has done

well done pumpkin plenty of dough pocketed there

isn't really soft case but rouge vif wants it quicker imo

Politologue an absolute star. Not even close to Altior at his best but he is so consistent and game. Promising debut at this level from Greanateen who might go for Ryanair.

well done politi ,superb jumper !

if I owned the 2nd or 3rd they'd be pot hunting the grade 2/3s
I'm sure the trainers don't agree but hammered by politologue is desperate

Irrespective of what was said earlier in the week, the trainer thinks the going is against the horse for todays race, end of.

Obviously correct + it made finding the winner rather easy.

yes wonders must be crap getting done by poli , some clown even put him up at 11/1 on the ante post forum a few months back

allmankind 3m 57.94s according to sporting life

nice winner that foyles...don't forget to send hendo his cut to say thanks

Virus in yard

big bottle of brandy on its way to nicky .

Co-Vid ?

Not been the best of Days For the Hendo barn

So, in the end, how many winners has Prohibited Substances trained around the country at the end of this big Saturday?

At least nico can dodge any interviews today...times on the chase track not to bad at all after all

perhaps henderson thought the going was too quick

Lydia getting stuck in to chemical Nicky

Let's hope Politologue hasn't been bottomed by that war of attrition.

I think the softer ground brought Politologue to close and possibly in front of Altior and that was the real reason. The rest is just semantics. NH tried to hide behind the ground for a different reason but everyone knows he was caught out.
Last season Altior was bottomed but if I remember correctly NH said he wasn't fully fit. That is bad training when you are running such good horses against other good horses. He may have gotten away with it before in easy races but not now.
Nichols summed it up well (Larabrown should watch) and given he may not run again before Cheltenham that leaves the door open for Altior to pick up an easy.

horses have always been pulled out for whatever the reason - whether we agree or not - the issue here is that ITV and 'media' in general believe horse racing revolves around superstars (!) and cheltenham and if the racing fan / punter / racegoer allow that view to continue then the game is dead (I'd be far more worried but I'm nearer the end of my time than the beginning!) what with low sun, and 10yos being held back for one day in March when a myriad of other issues between now and then may prevent him running, it's already a crisis...for me the BHA and racecourses have hastened the demise by moving all the decent races to saturdays and thereby added fuel to the fire that 'saturday' horses are the be all and end all. Flat/AW racing has it's own unique problems but jumps racing is closest to my heart and it's a crying shame what the game has become in recent years (on the anniversary of the london national fiasco remember - many congrats to doing fine who I backed last year at 28s with bet victor!!, you know the rest)

horses have always been pulled out for whatever the reason - whether we agree or not - the issue here is that ITV and 'media' in general believe horse racing revolves around superstars (!) and cheltenham and if the racing fan / punter / racegoer allow that view to continue then the game is dead (I'd be far more worried but I'm nearer the end of my time than the beginning!) what with low sun, and 10yos being held back for one day in March when a myriad of other issues between now and then may prevent him running, it's already a crisis...for me the BHA and racecourses have hastened the demise by moving all the decent races to saturdays and thereby added fuel to the fire that 'saturday' horses are the be all and end all. Flat/AW racing has it's own unique problems but jumps racing is closest to my heart and it's a crying shame what the game has become in recent years (on the anniversary of the london national fiasco remember - many congrats to doing fine who I backed last year at 28s with bet victor!!, you know the rest)

altior could run at taunton on thursday if the peterborough chase is moved, as in 2017 when it was run over 2m51/2f, if not then the desert orchid at kempton.

Thursday .....over 20 or 21 furlongs ......I won't be holding my breath for this happening

And as for the Desert Orchid chase.... I am getting a sense of deva ju.

the way his horses ran today he wont be in a hurry to run altior

he had 2 in peterborough today whats he going to do run 3 around tauntons greyhound track

Misses the tingle creek and now wants to go to Taunton over a trip he says the horse doesn’t want...I think we all know Henderson has just put everyone away and is going loopy in the head judging by his comments

End analysis is Henderson completely fecked up withdrawing Altior and his reasoning was flawed as chase course was soft no worse except perhaps a furlong before the pond fence which they didn't jump anyway. And we knew that from the previous days racing.

He should have pulled out his hurdlers as none of them handled the heavy hurdles course.

If he was honest he would had withdrawn all of his runners today.

What does Politologue have to do to convince some people? The fifth behind Defi in the Tingle last year was his only run below 161 since his novice days and he even managed an honourable fourth in the King George! Tingle Creek twice, Haldon Gold Cup, Aintree chase and a Champion Chase with hopefully another to come in March. Absolute star of the sport.

Mr Hales has had some phenomenal success with grey horses ....I have a big picture of One Man and Mr Harding winning the QM in my hall .

Politologue never quite looked destined for the top. Certainly amassing a decent haul of Grade one chases and looks the part now. Has been around for ages and a testament to Nicholls training ability.

Hales don;t forget the great Neptune Collonges whose record was exceptional considering he was around the 3m grade 1 chase scene the same time as Kauto Star and Denman.   
.

What does Politologue have to do to convince some people? The fifth behind Defi in the Tingle last year was his only run below 161 since his novice days and he even managed an honourable fourth in the King George! Tingle Creek twice, Haldon Gold Cup, Aintree chase and a Champion Chase with hopefully another to come in March. Absolute star of the sport.


it took me a few runs to forgive after coming down AFTER the last at Aintree in 2017!! I doubt he'll win another QMCC but definitely better than the likes of Twist Magic and Special Tiara

What does Politologue have to do to convince some people? The fifth behind Defi in the Tingle last year was his only run below 161 since his novice days and he even managed an honourable fourth in the King George! Tingle Creek twice, Haldon Gold Cup, Aintree chase and a Champion Chase with hopefully another to come in March. Absolute star of the sport.

Exactly. Call me mad (plenty have) but as soon as the QM Champion Chase was finished, I was of the opinion that he would've beaten Altior anyway, and I fancied him to beat Altior today, too. I never used to be a particular fan of the horse, regarding him as likeable but lacking something, but since Nicholls has kept him fresh, he's looked a different animal. If you're taking Dynamite Dollars as a guide, can we be certain that Altior has a lot in hand over Politologue nowadays? (he only beat him narrowly in the 2019 Queen Mother, and was made to work hard).

Which leads me on to Altior. Don't like to crab a horse with his record, but the 2 mile division hasn't exactly been stellar over the past few years, unlike during Moscow Flyer's era, for example. I actually think his best piece of form over the past few seasons was possibly when beaten by Cyrname last season. He's obviously top-class (won a red-hot Supreme), but is he quite the superstar that we're often lead to believe? For me, there are parallels with Best Mate (a real favourite of mine) in that he has been hugely protected and has ruled supreme in a weak(ish) division. Also like Best Mate, I feel that his form has gradually depreciated with time (no shame in that as a horse 10, rising 11). Don't get me wrong, if you're listing the top 10 horses since the millenium then Altior and Best Mate surely get in, but I just feel that this horses's reputation has exceeded his achievement for a couple of years now (since after his first QMCC success, for example)

Wonderful article in tomorrow`s Post about N. Henderson Esq. Such a lovely man and what a brilliant career.

All day shift today Fraudy you not busy with chums this evening...

hendo tells n luck this morning that altior very unlikely to run at taunton.

Good morning Iswear. I totally agree with much of what you are saying but you end up agreeing with my opinion, possibly without even realising it.
I am not convinced Politologue is up there with the best because I am not convinced with the current opposition. I feel the same about Altior, which you agree with, so, if Altior is thought to be as good, or maybe better than Politologue then that thought rubs of on both. If you get my meaning?

Were you not impressed with his turn of foot and the way he finished up the cheltenham incline in the supreme and Queen Mother?

I know i was.
Sometimes your eyes actually tell you.

Yes, he is a very good horse. All I am saying is you cannot say one is a top flight horse who is under rated then, in the same breath, say the horse he is being compared to is over rated. That's all. I think Altior is a very good horse and Politologue is a very good horse but I am not certain the division is as good as it has been.
Politologue was a 140+ hurdler has he improved over fences or is the opposition weaker. As an example he won the Tingle Creek before, beating Fox Norton. Fox Norton was odds on that day and he was a 140+ hurdler as well. Has he improved over fences as well or is the opposition weaker.
With Altior running only on race over hurdles suggesting he is rated higher than 140+ then questions still remain. Is the whole division being rated based on very few runs.
The two horses that have given Altior a race are, Cyrname rated 133 over hurdles and Politologue rated 139 over hurdles. Have they all improved massively for fences? Other horses established horses he beat include Special Tiara rated 113 over hurdles. I just question sometimes how one rating drags all the other up when it is not warranted.

morning Brigust1, I wasn't having a go at you or anyone else at all. I too would regard Politologue as a slightly sub-par Champion Chase winner, but not an outlier. The horse was seen as more of a yardstick for years and probably hasn't suddenly improved at 9 years old. I do, however, think Nicholls and his team has found the key to him in that they appear to be keeping him fresh nowadays. Just seems a shame that everyone talked mainly of Altior yesterday, when I feel Politologue may have downed him anyway.

Also not knocking Altior as I think he was a superstar in his early days and feel he would've won at least one Champion Hurdle had they gone down that route, I'm just not convinced that there's been anything earth-shattering from him for a good few years now (much like Best Mate after winning the Cheltenham 2003 Gold Cup). I feel that his long unbeaten record is as much due to him being hugely overprotected and the paucity of opposition. I would, for example, have loved to see him go for the Melling Chase at Aintree rather than the generally uncompetitive Celebration Chase at Sandown. Nicky Henderson would, of course, say that he is doing best by his horse and that's fair enough, but I feel racing fans take far more to horses that are campaigned with a bit more variety.

Is Politologue even as good as Un De Sceaux (UDS) who played 2nd fiddle to Altior on numerous occasions? i doubt it. It was a great shame Altior and Douvan never met as Mr Mullins was protecting his charge eg avoiding a clash in the Tingle Creek repeatedly sending UDS instead.

I believe Hendo chickened out on saturday withdrawing Altior; Rouge Vif ran, and the ground could not be worse than the exertion he put Altior against Cyrname over 20f. Let's hope Altior shows up soon.

It was a great shame Altior and Douvan

Fishing or a mistake ?

14/03/2018

Of course Douvan fell in that race. Could Douvan have run in the Tingle Creek a few months earlier against Altior at Sandown? Anyway, both are in their twilight years and the former is certainly regressing.

With respect to some experienced forumites, are we not confusing how good a horse was at its peak with how good it is now. We have limited evidence of how much Altior has fallen from his peak but it will be amazing if an 11yo as he will be In March will be within 10lb of his peak form. Politoligue is not getting any younger either but a change in training strategy seems to have improved him in the last 12 months. There are young pretenders but he put 2 of them in their place on Saturday and that only leaves the Irish ones. They will no doubt be a big challenge but Chacun Poir Soir seems well ahead of the others and he has yet to experience a journey to England. He might cope with it well but it raises a doubt.

I too think that Altior's dominance was aided by a very weak division , a suggestion that has often been labelled on my favourite Badsworth Boy.

We all know how good the era was when Well Chief was only the 3rd  best around.

I have always felt that Badsworth Boy or Sprinter Sacre would have Altior beat out in the country with their fast accurate jumping whilst he often hit a flat spot , with him possibly falling or being distanced by the pressure.

But if they had not shaken him off , I can think of no other 2 miler who finishes as strongly from the last , even superior to Moscow Flyer.

moscow flyer won the champion chase as a 11yo in a very strong era so champions can get it done,this is looking a poor era and unless chacan pour soi is a star like they think altior could be 10lb below his best and still win,unless there is a touch of cloud around and he doesnt run

Sage
I think you need to take the ground and track into consideration when dismissing the young pretenders so easily.
Different ground, different track can produce different outcomes.

Sage
I think you need to take the ground and track into consideration when dismissing the young pretenders so easily.
Different ground, different track can produce different outcomes.

Between soft and g/s with an uphill finish was not that different from Cheltenham. Saint Roi might be a threat on fast going but Politologue has been there and done it in March so he should be a strong second fav imo. The biggest threat around might be Allmankind.

Well right and let handed are certainly different, as is soft to good/soft.
I dont have a problem if you think Poli should be 2nd fav, just the dismissal of horses he beat, especially one that is still improving,has better form left handed and would prefer better ground than he got at Sandown.

Allmankind has his own agenda, trying to beat Shishkin and others in the Arkle being the main one i imagine.

Nicky should have been asked whether the ground was worse at the last couple of Haydock meetings. He really should have announced some time ago or at least earlier in the week that this horse is only going to run on good or good to soft from now on.

I was not suggesting that Allmankind would run in the CC but the times suggest he would have finished second or third in the Tingle Creek. I suppose that the one to back for 2022 CC might be Hitman who had less experience and was not beaten far. I can see a big upheaval in the 2 mile division by March 2022.

Based on what he showed in France, very strong at the finish in his hurdle win, and his breeding, I suspect Hitman will prove to be a 2M 4F performer next season, maybe even this one. Also a feeling that he won't be a Cheltenham horse, but best on dead flat tracks. So maybe a program that goes Pendil Novice Chase at Kempton and then on to Aintree, rather than the Arkle.

Again re Peterborough Chase. Hendo was telling porkies to deflect the criticism about the shenanigan of Altior at Sandown. Contrary connections of Rouge Vif ran their horse despite warning they might not if ground was too soft.