There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Henry was a great trainer and usually got things right ,but seeing all these progeny of Frankel winning over 1m 4f ,1m6f ,2m ,was he wrong in his decision not to run Frankel in
the Derby as he didnt think it would stay ?He eventually agreed to try the horse over 1m 2f at the end of its career ,and it won comfortably ,just think we couldve missed out on
him being even more of a special horse .Any thoughts ?
the Derby as he didnt think it would stay ?He eventually agreed to try the horse over 1m 2f at the end of its career ,and it won comfortably ,just think we couldve missed out on
him being even more of a special horse .Any thoughts ?
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 62
|
By:
hed have been hammered over the derby trip imo, but i did say that before he went over 10 furlongs,
 . |
|
By:
Most trainers would have gone for the Derby, that's what set HRAC apart and he made the correct decision not to. Frankel was far too headstrong (aka 2000 guineas) and it took time for Henry to get teach him to settle better.
As a 4 year old i have no doubt Frankel would have stayed 12f easily, he wasn't stopping in the Juddmonte (extended 10f) and it took TQ furlongs to pull him up. |
|
By:
He would have needed to have been ridden by a better jockey over the longer trip, that;s for sure. I reckon that he would have stayed the 1m4f if he'd been kept in training, but we'll never know.
|
|
By:
We will never know of course as you say. As a 3 yo if Henry thought that he would stay 12f then he would have run him in the Derby.
|
|
By:
Agreed as a 3 year old he was too headstrong but as a 4 year old there was no excuse not to be stepped up.
|
|
By:
I think Sir Henry knew a little more about the horse than us mere onlookers.
|
|
By:
From the 2,000 Guineas onwards, Cecil set about modulating Frankel's zest to get him to settle and use his speed more clinically ... It took a while, but by Saturday the world No 1 was so laid-back he fell out of the stalls half-asleep." Hayward quoted Cecil as saying after the race: "I've probably got him too relaxed. It used to be the other way round
|
|
By:
He was often quite an aggressive trainer when he had a really good horse on his hands before Frankel - he ran Reference Point in the Eclipse between the Derby and the King George and he ran Oh So Sharp in the King George as a three year old filly.
I would suspect the obvious answer is that Frankel's headstrong temperament, as seen in the Guineas, was enough to make Sir Henry think there was a chance the Derby, with all it's additional challenges, wasn't a good idea for Frankel at that stage of his career. |
|
By:
I agree with most of the comments but a little niggle in my mind that says if they had got him to settle in the race that he wouldve won the Derby ,maybe Cecil was being over cautious ,even the greats get it wrong sometimes ,we will never know,still will go down in history as a great horse.
|
|
By:
said so at the time they bottled it, would have won i had 100/1 as well convinced they would never get a opportunity like this again
|
|
By:
That was the Pour Moi Derby with the jockey stood up in stirrups celebrating passing the post in a photo finish. Not a strong version of the race. Maybe Frankel could have done it; would have needed a calm Queally steering thou.
|
|
By:
just think we couldve missed out on
him being even more of a special horse .Any thoughts ? He was almost certainly the best horse that has ever run on turf in Britain or anywhere else. You don't have to win a Derby or Arc to be that. |
|
By:
Best 3year old not always the Derby winner even when they do go for it. How many good horses have gone backwards after trying The Derby? The King George as a 4 year old may have been tempting.
|
|
By:
I’d have to agree, would have relished the trip
|
|
By:
A horse like Frankel comes around once every 50 years. He was so good he would have won the Champion Hurdle or any race regardless.
|
|
By:
Did Henry Cecil really tell Tom Queally to run the 2,000 guineas like a sprint race?
He'd been held up in his races previous I think Tom Queally was a very lucky boy guineas day. He couldn't hold Frank. |
|
By:
It wasn't planned for Frankel to make the running, Rerouted (same ownership) was meant to be the pacemaker, but he was drawn on the opposite of the field and he didn't have the early pace to lead the favourite.
The headstrong Frankel soon led and the rest is history. |
|
By:
I think that that guineas ride is the singular reason that TQ doesn't get many decent rides. Everyone saw just how lucky he was to have the ride on Frankel and he nearly f>>ked it up.
|
|
By:
His Guineas run and subsequent St James Palace stakes win hardly screamed he should have run in The Derby.
No one seriously believes he would have been better/improve with a 4 furlong increase in trip @ that stage of his career Given time and expert handling enabled Frankel to be the true champion he was. Could have easily been fooked up (Queally tried but Frankels class wouldnt allow it) |
|
By:
Henry never knew how bad the opposition was going to be. The Derby was a shocker of a race and all this talk about him pulling was rubbish. Rakti pulled, Frankel didn't. Watch his races. If Henry was trying to settle him then in the 2000 Gns (the worst in the last 50 years) they wouldn't have ridden him that way. Watch his Greenham win and his Dewhurst win he may have pulled a little to start with but that was because the opposition was too slow. It was probably the same at home.
What did he have 12 runs between 7f and a mile ffs. Some people would believe anything. You don't have to be a superstar to canter home. Watch Stradivarius. All you need is weak opposition. |
|
By:
Brigust, if you're saying in your post that Frankel took on weak opposition, the horses Frankel beat while still on the bridle, Farhh, St Nicholas Abbey and Excelebration were each multiple Group One winners.
|
|
By:
Have to agree with brigust about the quality of that 2000 guineas field which had to be the worst for very many years.
|
|
By:
There were 3 Group winners other than Frankel to come from that 2,000 Guineas.
|
|
By:
jinxy, how many races were won by those horses following the guineas?
|
|
By:
His form stacks up pretty well.
Trying to pick holes in it does the horse a disservice. Queally gave him a couple of stinkers in g1s and he still won. Only mistake I felt was not going to the Arc..... That wouldve been worthwhile. |
|
By:
sparrow, stop being so damn negative about the great Frankel.
|
|
By:
All I ever wanted to see was the horse being allowed to be more competitive rather than remain in a comfort zone.
|
|
By:
ffs, he won 10 Group 1 races a Group 2 and a Group 3 and you think that YOU know better than Sir Henry Cecil.
|
|
By:
You are right Sophie he was a very good racehorse, right up there. I just don't think he pulled and I have ridden a puller. And I don't think he beat much, and Phil Smith, BHA handicapper, agrees with that but that wasn't his fault. No-one knows for sure how good he could have proved to be because his connections didn't want to take any chances and why should they? I just don't agree with giving him the crown when he hasn't earned it.
Do I think he would have won the Derby? Yes I do because it was a terrible Derby with Carlton House the favourite and just beaten. They dropped Carlton House back to a mile to try to win with him. That is how bad the race was. Pour Moi was owned by the Coolmore team and him not running may have been part of the agreement. Do I think he would win an average Epsom Derby? No I don't. He emptied in the Guineas, the St James Palace and the Champion Stakes and he couldn't afford to do that at Epsom. |
|
By:
jinxy, I suggest you read the post by brigust which deals with this matter far better than I.
|
|
By:
Nonsense.
|
|
By:
Two horses what people always try to say they were overrated, Istrabraq and the great Frankel which IMHO were the best 2 ever at their fields. I believe both of them given stiffer opposition would still pull out more and win.
As for the Derby if any trainer would of sent Frankel to that race after seeing it's Derby trail(2000 Guineas) then isn't worth talking about. |
|
By:
Senior BHA handicapper Phil Smith paid tribute to Frankel following the unbeaten colt's grand finale in Saturday's Group 1 Champion Stakes.
It remains to be seen whether Frankel's final rating will be the highest of all time -- the figure will be decided at a conference later this year -- but in terms of stellar performances, Smith said he had never known a horse who could achieve top-class marks every time he ran. "He's won nine Group 1 races (going into the Champion, his 10th), is the first horse to produce two 140 performances -- in the Queen Anne Stakes and Juddmonte International at two different distances -- and his consistency is the element that handicappers love to see. "He has been metronomic, giving performance of 130-plus over and over again," Smith said. "The conditions were not helpful today, but he has put up another 130-plus effort. "I've never seen a horse who is so consistent. He never throws in a below-par performance." The Juddmonte Farms homebred showed plenty of early promise before he saw a racecourse. As a result, Prince Khalid Abdullah named the well-bred son of Galileo in honor of the late Hall of Fame trainer Bobby Frankel, who had conditioned a raft of Juddmonte stars in the United States. The tribute turned out to be ideal. In his career debut at Newmarket as a juvenile, Frankel scored cozily from another hot prospect in Nathaniel, under no more than a mild hand ride from regular rider Tom Queally. Trainer Sir Henry Cecil next sent him out in a conditions race at Doncaster, and Frankel turned in a jaw-dropping performance. Streaking 13 lengths clear, he revealed himself as a colt of unusual potential. Frankel followed up with a 10-length demolition job in the Group 2 Royal Lodge Stakes at Ascot, and capped his campaign with a 2 1/4-length decision in the Group 1 Dewhurst. Connections opted to keep him at a mile in the Group 1 Queen Elizabeth II Stakes on Champions Day last year. After tracking the pace like a coiled spring, he was let loose and stormed clear, again beating his old rival Excelebration by four lengths. The still-flawless Frankel reigned supreme as Europe's Horse of the Year and champion three-year-old colt. Prince Khalid sportingly decided to keep him in training in 2012, but his four-year-old season was imperiled by an injury scare in April. The exuberant mover had struck into himself in a gallop, injuring his right front leg. Internal hemorrhaging in the area led to worries of a more serious soft tissue injury, and sparked rumors of his retirement. Racing Manager Teddy Grimthorpe was quick to rebut the rumors, and further scans revealed that the damage was only superficial. Frankel soon resumed training and was ready for his reappearance in the Group 1 Lockinge Stakes on May 19. If there were any doubt about whether the champion was back, Frankel tore it to shreds. Settled even more kindly off the pace than previously, he stormed away to defeat Excelebration by five lengths, implying that he'd actually improved at four -- just as Cecil had forecast. Frankel crushed Excelebration by more than twice that margin in the Group 1 Queen Anne Stakes on June 19. His 11-length conquest opened the Royal Ascot meeting with a bang, and gave further substance to Cecil's belief that he was still improving. |
|
By:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAt461h-gFM
Go to 5 mins 40 secs and if the great man read this thread he would say the same thing  |
|
By:
I meant 4 mins 50
 |
|
By:
A letter I wrote to Phil Smith
A long and happy retirement for Mr Smith It was good to read about the retirement of the BHA Head of Handicapping Phil Smith signalling the end of an era that I think the sport I love will, one day, look back on with disdain. As an ex-school teacher I know Smith understands the word ‘class’ but as a handicapper, like all the top class handicappers I have watched in my 60 years following this great sport he was totally unable to get to grips with it. I won’t go into the obvious egregious errors in the BHA ratings he represented I will simply use his own words when in 2012 he stated ‘it was difficult separating Frankel and Dancing Brave because one had beaten lesser opponents easily while the other had beaten better opponents narrowly’. All Smith needed to do was to ask because it is what all jockeys ride horses for, all trainers train horses for and what all owners own horses for in fact I believe every sportsperson would agree, if asked, what the greater achievement is. It is such a pity for everyone who loves this sport that when the opportunity arrived to rate a truly top-class racehorse the incumbent BHA team headed by Smith showed themselves to be massively and comprehensively out of their depth. A Division One referee at the World Cup final. Their numerous television interviews in 2012 bordered on the farcical and were matched only by their obvious inability to cope with the exceptional. Rating a top-class racehorse should not include how many new faces we can attract to our sport, how many ratings manuals we can sell or how many newspapers can be sold. It should not be a trawl through history with incumbent handicappers tearing apart the work of their predecessors and then super-ceding it with the most dishonest and predetermined end game in mind. And it should not be the sight of long-standing horse racing historians who have written eloquently and at great length about the great horses of the past then questioning the very words they have written. I do hope Mr Smith has a long and happy retirement while hoping that, in that period, a successor with more understanding of 'class' will revisit the BHA ratings and give Dancing Brave back the rating he genuinely earned in 1986 but was ignominiously robbed of in 2012. |
|
By:
brigust....some years ago on this forum you highlighted the rating of Royal Palace and compared it with Excelebration and remembering Royal Palace really well I could not quite believe the two ratings. Was the Excelebration rating down to Phil Smith as well?
|
|
By:
brigust - You type ... "A letter I wrote to Phil Smith"
- TO Phil Smith ? - and - then tear into him. I wonder if you got a reply.  |
|
By:
Sparrow it was before Smith's time as was Dancing Brave. If you watched his interviews the were a car crash but nobody really cares. In any other sport he wouldn't have gotten away with it but punters mostly couldn't give a monkey's about the ethics providing the result is what they want.
No reply Onlooker, none expected. |