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Cecil and Frankel
Cecil and Frankel
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Sparrow Royal Palace won 6 top Group 1's from 11 starts, including the 2000 Guineas, the Derby, Eclipse, King George you name it he beat Sir Ivor in the Eclipse.
Excelebration won three Group 1's where he beat Cityscape twice who couldn't win a single Group 1 in the UK or France from 23 attempts and Rio de la Plata who ran till he was 7 winning two Group 1's in Italy from 24 starts. The classic he won was the Group 2 German 2000 Guineas. Enough to make you weep. |
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Thanks for that, brigust.
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I believe you said that Excelebration was given a rating 2 pounds higher than Royal Palace.
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That is correct Sparrow. Excelebration 133 and Royal Palace 131. The only classic Excelebration won was the Group 2 German 2000 Gns and he is the only horse to win a Group 1 in either the Uk or France ever. That is how good the race is. When Royal Palace won the King George he beat the Arc winner. And when he won the Eclipse he beat Sir Iver who won the 2000 Guineas and the Derby and Taj Dewan who won the Champion Stakes.
They should hang their heads in shame. Who said 'Forgive them for they know not what they do'? |
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*Sir Ivor
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Let me just tidy this up.
sparrow 28 Jun 20 20:09 brigust....some years ago on this forum you highlighted the rating of Royal Palace and compared it with Excelebration and remembering Royal Palace really well I could not quite believe the two ratings. Was the Excelebration rating down to Phil Smith as well? ----- brigust1 28 Jun 20 20:23 Sparrow it was before Smith's time as was Dancing Brave. If you watched his interviews the were a car crash but nobody really cares. In any other sport he wouldn't have gotten away with it but punters mostly couldn't give a monkey's about the ethics providing the result is what they want. ---------- What brigust means is ... ROYAL PALACE was - "before Phil Smith's time" ... quite obviously - as Royal Palace was mid/late 1960s There were NO OFFICIAL Ratings at that time, in the 1960s - OFFICIAL Ratings/International Classifications did not start until the mid 1970s. Any referred to 'Rating' for Royal Palace would, therefore, be a TIMEFORM Rating - and NOT Official Rating. The common mistake made, though, in comparing generations - and even currently by many - is to compare TIMEFORM Ratings - and also RACING POST Ratings - to OFFICIAL RATINGS. That ALWAYS gives an [b[artificial comparison[/b] - because - BOTH TIMEFORM Ratings and RACING POST Ratings run [b[ at a LEVEL HIGHER than OFFICIAL Ratings [/b] - of around 4/5-7 pounds ... and usually even more so in the Handicap Racing Bands. ----------- sparrow asked brigust ... "Was the Excelebration rating down to Phil Smith as well?..... which brigust misinterpreted - hence his reply, and my explanation. The Excelebration (domestic) Rating would - originally - be down to both - Dominic-Gardner-Hill (now, incidentally Head of Handicapping, since Smith's retirement) as Gardner-Hill was responsible for the MILERS division, and the Irish Handicapper (as Excelebration was latterly trained in Ireland) However - as Head of Handicapping - Phil Smith could, and would, step in, across the board of all distances, for Group Race level horses, and the consequent INTERNATIONAL CLASSIFICATIONS. |
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You are correct in one respect Onlooker in that the ratings I gave are both Timeform ratings. I thought the Official ratings started in'79. I suppose I can understand sitting at my desk for 18 years without a really top horse coming along so they threw the kitchen sink at Frankel. Ignored all of their own rules and had the temerity to go back in time to a group who had huge experience rating top horses and adjusted their ratings. They only got away with it because DB was owned by Frankel's owner. It stinks, stinks, stinks.
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Kingmans offspring stay well but Kingman could had easily run over 6f.
Frankel would had won over 6f,1m,1m2f,1m4f & 1m6f. Im pretty sure he did well during is career. |
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Onlooker.....I did understand that obviously Royal Palace was before Phil Smith's time but if Timeform ratings tend to be higher then Royal Palace is even further underrated compared with Excelebration's official rating. Am I missing something here?
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Oh I see now that they are both timeform ratings. Thank you both.
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Sonko you had better get in line behind all the others who think they know better than Henry Cecil.
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i don't think any horse racing past , present or future will hold a candle to brigust1's once in a lifetime , greatest horse , supreme turf athlete that was , of course , the mighty middle distance champion mill reef .
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Brigust1, sorry to ask have too many drinks, are you saying Henry didn't know the time of day?
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Close Windsor, but no cigar.
Too many drinks Move, too many drinks. I don't think Henry was the greatest trainer but, like his horse, he was up there near the top. |
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Who would you put at the top Brigust, Henry defo number for me, gosden getting close now, yes vincent class act but only because he did over both rules, Aiden for me couldn't polish their shoes.
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Don Cantillon for me
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On a par with Alan berry
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To be fair thats not a good comparison
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The Don trained more winners in his sleep than Alan Berry has done in last 12 years
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Too many drinks sorry, Don could pull of a tickle for sure
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Not in the best of health so my Newmarket man tells me.☹
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Really
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brigust1...incidentally , my father's auntie used to babysit a young boy in cheadle , cheshire . his name was joe mercer .
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