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jumps racing at Nottingham, Windsor and Wolverhampton
jumps racing at Nottingham, Windsor and Wolverhampton
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Replies: 181
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thanks for all the memories - we'll probably never get jumps back at windsor/nottingham and definitely not wolverhampton but they have seen their share of decent animals over the years, thats for sure..we just need to re-double efforts post-lockdown to ensure that we don't lose any in next few years
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FAIRLAWNE CHASE, WINDSOR, 3M
1963 Certain Justice T Baldwin A Neaves 1964 Sir Daniel W Ree Peter Cazalet 1965 Anglo T Norman Fred Winter 1966 Abandoned 1967 Abandoned 1968 Bassnet A Kilpatrick David Nicholson 1969 The Laird Bob Turnell Jeff King 1970 Specify D Weeden Terry Biddlecombe 1971 Into View Fred Winter Paul Kelleway 1972 Cardinal Error Fred Winter John Francome 1973 Spanish Steps Edward Courage Bob Davies 1974 Game Spirit Fulke Walwyn Terry Biddlecombe 1975 Bula Fred Winter John Francome 1976 Bula Fred Winter John Francome 1977 Abandoned 1978 Abandoned 1979 Joint Venture Jim Old John Francome 1980 Border Incident Richard Head John Francome 1981 Abandoned 1982 Venture To Cognac Fred Winter Mr Oliver Sherwood 1983 Abandoned 1984 Everett Fulke Walwyn Stuart Shilston 1985 Abandoned 1986 Abandoned 1987 Western Sunset Tim Forster Hywel Davies 1988 Rhyme 'N' Reason David Elsworth Brendan Powell 1989 Bartre David Murray Smith Graham Bradley 1990 Abandoned 1991 Espy Charlie Brooks Peter Scudamore 1992 Toby Tobias Jenny Pitman Mark Pitman 1993 Zeta's Lad John Upson J R Kavanagh 1994 Black Humour Charlie Brooks Graham Bradley 1995 Zeta's Lad Charlie Brooks Graham Bradley 1996 Commercial Artist Nick Gaselee Andrew Thornton 1997 Equity Player Roger Curtis Derek Morris | ||||
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1962 Hedgelands Cyril Mitchell Josh Gifford
1963 Certain Justice A Neaves T Baldwin 1964 Sir Daniel Peter Cazalet W Ree 1965 Anglo Fred Winter T Norman 1966 Abandoned 1967 Abandoned 1968 Bassnet A Kilpatrick David Nicholson 1969 The Laird Bob Turnell Jeff King 1970 Specify D Weeden Terry Biddlecombe 1971 Into View Fred Winter Paul Kelleway 1972 Cardinal Error Fred Winter John Francome 1973 Spanish Steps Edward Courage Bob Davies 1974 Game Spirit Fulke Walwyn Terry Biddlecombe 1975 Bula Fred Winter John Francome 1976 Bula Fred Winter John Francome 1977 Abandoned 1978 Abandoned 1979 Joint Venture Jim Old John Francome 1980 Border Incident Richard Head John Francome 1981 Abandoned 1982 Venture To Cognac Fred Winter Mr Oliver Sherwood 1983 Abandoned 1984 Everett Fulke Walwyn Stuart Shilston 1985 Abandoned 1986 Abandoned 1987 Western Sunset Tim Forster Hywel Davies 1988 Rhyme 'N' Reason David Elsworth Brendan Powell 1989 Bartre David Murray Smith Graham Bradley 1990 Abandoned 1991 Espy Charlie Brooks Peter Scudamore 1992 Toby Tobias Jenny Pitman Mark Pitman 1993 Zeta's Lad John Upson J R Kavanagh 1994 Black Humour Charlie Brooks Graham Bradley 1995 Zeta's Lad Charlie Brooks Graham Bradley 1996 Commercial Artist Nick Gaselee Andrew Thornton 1997 Equity Player Roger Curtis Derek Morris | ||||
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target race for fred winter/charlie brooks - some very decent animals there
In their book A Century of Champions, John Randall and Tony Morris rated Bula the sixth-best hurdler at 177, 5 lbs behind the highest rated hurdler, Night Nurse. Persian War, Monksfield, Comedy Of Errors and Istabraq were the only other hurdlers rated higher.[22] | ||||
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Gordon, it was indeed a top race back then. I remember The Dikler winning and getting disq. but can`t remember the year. It was a long tine ago,
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The following are Timeform's Greatest Racehorses:
Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Flat 3yo+) 147 Frankel 145 Sea-Bird 144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel 142 Abernant, Ribot 141 Mill Reef 140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble 139 Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point Loved Generous but surprised to see him and Reference Point only 1lb off Dancing Brave/Dubai Millenium/Sea the Stars who I remember very well Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps - Hurdlers) 182 Night Nurse 180 Istabraq, Monksfield 179 Persian War 178 Comedy of Errors, Le Sauvignon 177 Lanzarote, Limestone Lad 176 Bird's Nest, Bula, Faugheen, Golden Cygnet 175 Baracouda, Gaye Brief, Salmon Spray, Sea Pigeon Limestone Lad (again a horse I loved particularly his front running style) higher than Faugheen/Golden Cygnet/Sea Pigeon?? What rating do they give Big Bucks as would have thought higher than Baracouda or was it that handicap win that gave Baracouda such a high rating? Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps - Chasers) 212 Arkle 210 Flyingbolt 192p Sprinter Sacre 191 Kauto Star, Mill House 187 Desert Orchid 186 Dunkirk 184 Burrough Hill Lad, Moscow Flyer, Long Run 183 Don Cossack, Master Oats 182 Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Captain Christy, Douvan, Carvill's Hill, Kicking King, And of course the most controversial of all - is it really possible that two horses in the same (relatively small) stable at the same time are 20lbs and 18lbs better Sprinter Sacre, Kauto, Dessie et al? | ||||
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Generous, was a good horse,not within 7lb of D.Brave imo..
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Where's Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, El Gran Senor and for goodness sake how is Harbinger mentioned in the same breath.
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Jummps - Chasers where is the great Denman
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G hall
Harbinger is a very difficult horse to assess,as a one of performance I doubt many would compare with his King George. | ||||
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I have not read the early parts of this but I don't mis those jump courses. Nottingham was the best one of the three as a fair track rather similar to Newbury but the other were very tight and twisting tracks. I had bad experiences at Wolverhampton when a horse I owned lost a shoe in the paddock and had to be withdrawn because they didn't have a blacksmith available while at Windsor, I lost a horse that broke its neck on the approach road because, having fallen in a novice chase, he and another loose horse were able to gallop through an open gate from the course, through the paddock and the course entrance and onto the road. So good riddance from my point of view.
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Duke
Did you think denman should have been rated higher than Douvan,master oats and long run? | ||||
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Sageform
Are you referring to the old Wolverhampton national hunt track or the one that raced around the outside of the aw track ? | ||||
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Denman did win 2 Hennessy Gold Cups as well as a win and a second in the Gold Cup. Master Oats and Long run were very good but only for one season. I would still rate Kauto Star as superior because of his record at Kempton.
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Probably the old one, it was late 1980s. I only went there the one time. In any case not having a blacksmith available was total incompetence as was leaving gates open at Windsor during a race.
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Sageform
I didn’t mind Wolverhampton but like you I don’t really miss Windsor, | ||||
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No Nijinsky is ridiculous,also how is Monksfield 5lbs in front of Sea Pigeon?
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The Monksfield who beat Sea Pigeon and Night Nurse in 1978 would have been rated much higher than the Monksfield who finished third to Sea Pigeon and Pollardstown in 1981.
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Or, to put it more brutally, beating Night Nurse rates higher than beating Pollardstown.
To be clear, I'm not running down Sea Pigeon. As I said above, I loved the horse. But that's how ratings work. | ||||
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IF Jonjo hadn't panicked when Kybo fell in 79 it would have been 3 champion hurdles imo.
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There's also the 1978 Champion Hurdle. Night Nurse beat Monksfield and Dramatist, with Sea Pigeon only fourth, ahead of the favourite Birds Nest and Beacon Light.
That would have been the strongest hurdle race ever run, and presumably the source of the final Timeform ratings. | ||||
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I thought beacon light was a certainty for the arkle ,at the time I had never seen anaglogs daughter.
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Does anybody know what kybo stands for ?
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KEEP YOUR BOWELS OPEN
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Well done dambuster
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Bob Champion told me that,at a Warners weekend racing break a few years ago. | ||||
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talking about sea pigeon love to see a ebor c/h winner in 11 weeks time
lets hope so. stay safe Ronnie. | ||||
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Good morning ribero
I can’t really comment on Nijinsky as it was before my time although I obviously know his achievements and have got the video a horse called Nijinsky ,what I can comment on with confidence is that Troy was better than both reference point and generous. | ||||
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As someone who saw Arkle and Flyingbolt race both in the flesh and on tv it is difficult to find the words to convincingly get across just what monster horses they both were.Whether or not they are correctly rated compared to others who raced in different periods is a moot point although I wouldn't argue with the assessments allocated. Up until a few years ago I'd always have said that Arkle was the greatest nh racehorse I'd ever seen ,but frankly doubts have crept in and over recent years have wondered if Flyingbolt at his imperious best should be at the top. Part of the joy of racing that lasts a lifetime !
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On those ratings
a King George field with Arkle 12-0 Kauto Star 10-7 Desert Orchid 10-3 I know who I think would have been a well beaten 3rd of those protaginists. As I have said before I would have more belief in the ranking of Arkle by people who saw him run , if he had taken on his stablemate. Denman (with his issues) and Kauto Star met in 4 Gold Cups , the best two horse of the 60's and from the same stable were never matched on a race course , so must have been taking on inferior horses. This happens all the time in the blue blood world of flat racing and it is one of the worst aspects of horse racing. | ||||
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Dambuster
Can’t remember how I found out but it was relatively recently. | ||||
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Or for that matter limestone lad 2 lb better than baracouda?
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posy is it just possible that the collateral handicap form for both Arkle and Flyingbolt was over rated? I don't doubt that they were lengths ahead of anything else around at that time but it just defies all logic (before and since!) that the two best jumpers of all time were in the same smallish Irish stable over a 3-4 year period.
There have been times when Dickinson/Henderson/Nicholls/Pipe/Mullins (all with far more horses than Mr Dreaper) could have been said to be dominant but not 20lbs clear of the best to that point and although Night Nurse/Sea Pigeon were also in the same stable, they were beatable, indeed by each other, over a period of years this could also apply to Baracouda (ref the hcap at Sandown prior to getting beat by Iris's Gift at Cheltenham) because there's no way I would have backed him over either Big Bucks or indeed Inglis Drever | ||||
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Good morning Gordon hope your well
You mention one there iris’s gift I can’t think of a better performance by a novice hurdler than when he was 2 nd in the stayers hurdle. | ||||
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Hi foxy,agree re Troy,i like Timeform in general but think plenty in that list is nonsense.
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For some people with long memories, I studied a lot of the VDW articles back in the day, and seeing Beacon Light mentioned earlier reminds me of the 1978 Erin Hurdle at Leopardstown.
VDW said that Beacon Light had more or less,no chance. The race was won by Prominent King, with Mr Kildare second. I could never understand why he ruled Beacon Light out of it, so readily. | ||||
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I wouldn’t have istabraq up there but didn’t fancy mentioning it on an open forum ribero just in case his legion of fans read it .
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Afternoon Foxy - I think there may also be legions of fans of See You Then, Persian War and Sir Ken however Istabraq being irish owned/trained and more recent than the other three, probably means they're more in numbers and more vocal in their support...I'd say Istabraq was better than See You Then, having seen both of them win CH and other races but Persian War/Sir Ken way before my time.
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I would agree istabraq was better than see you then ,I don’t think any of them beat much,in istabraqs case I am not convinced he would have won the sun alliance hurdle if the runner up had a reasonable jockey on board.
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French holly would be the best horse he beat
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