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ALTIOR.......where will he rank in your mind?
ALTIOR.......where will he rank in your mind?
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 the Gold Cup and Grand National is all that anyone wants. I think most true racing fans would disagree |
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Racing fans want a winner.
Preferably at a nice price. I think that most owners and trainers in the NH game look at the gold cup and the grand national first and then work backwards. |
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If only NH racing hadn't been ruined by all these Grade 1 and Grade 2 conditions chases throughout the season (both in GB and in Ireland).
Imagine Saturday's race as a limited handicap (with the same prize money): Altior on 11-10, Un De Sceaux 11-3, Sceaux Royal 10-8, Saint Calvados on 10-7. What a race that would have been, and a chance to find out whether Altior really can do what Desert Orchid did. My guess is that he probably can - I think he'd always find that little bit extra, like Desert Orchid did. But it'll only ever be a guess, as he's never going to get properly tested. |
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The Tingle Creek used to be a handicap
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Altior will be stepped up in trip for the Melling Chase in 2019. If he wins and stays the King George will be the goal next season.
I still think Martha’s Son doesn’t get his due. |
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good point about weight, chavman
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Of the 2 mile chasers from the last 30 years I'd have Sprinter Sacre comfortably on top. Moscow flyer was still a great horse as an 11 yo, posting rpr's of 181 and 182 that year . Altior is rated 175 and could well improve past Moscow but he's not there yet and will have to keep doing what he's doing for some time still.These are my top 3.
Master Minded produced one absolutely incredible performance as a 5 yo but never ran to within a stone of that again. The likes of Remittance man, The 2 Flagships,Martha's Son, Barnbrook Again,Pearlyman were good horses but a class below the big 3. |
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I suppose that if there wasnt the demand for these small field G1/2 races over jumps then they wouldnt exist.
Back in dessie's day there was the boxing day gold cup and then the one at chelters and that was your lot. Quite a few gold cup horses got ruined carrying top weight on bad winter ground in meaningless handicaps. Hen Knight was determined that wasnt going to happen to Best Mate who was a fragile horse at the best of times. She got plenty of stick for running Matey only three times a season but she was proven right and she paved the way for the likes of altior. Anyway. Maybe the BHA could stick up the prize money for some decent handicaps instead of throwing good money after bad at ascots champions day. |
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Given their different styles of racing always likely that Sprinter Sacre would be able to run to a higher figure. Personally, I think he was overrated. It is always a good story when a horse makes a successful return. Altior is just a faster horse and given that he is an efficient jumper I doubt that Sprinter Sacre would have been able to have created a big enough gap not to have got mown down in similar fashion to the rest of Altior's challengers.
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In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
Some of the tosh written on here is mind boggling. Thelarps you need to seek help quite frankly. We have a horse who is unbeaten in 15 starts over timber! His hurdle campaign culminated in destroying an absolutely top class field in the Supreme which included the peerless 2m dual hurdle King B'Dair (who hasn't lost since in 2 years) and Min, Supasundae etc. As a first season chaser he notched up 6 wins inc 5 wins @ grade 1 / 2; and in those 6 races he won by a combined distance of 114 lengths! Since then Altior has continued to conquer all top class challengers, basically unopposed. Altior cruises round, hits a flat spot and then absolutely gobbles up anything around him. A truly wonderful horse. Sprinter Sacre is the only horse I have seen who may be as good at 2m (and is on of my 3 all time favourites). But to put Master Minded etc in that category is fanciful. He can win on any track, any going and jumps beautifully. He slaughtered the top class UDS + 2 much touted young pretenders LTO and is absolutely peerless in the 2m division. Whether he is as good over further remains to be seen; but I suspect he will be. Although regardless; in 20 years time people will be waxing lyrical about this great horse. I reminisce over Remittance Man, Viking Flagship, Marthas Son etc. but the truth is they wouldn't be able to hold a candle to Alitior. So let's enjoy him whilst we can and not try and pick holes when none are there! |
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Charwell
may i say that if you think a one time winner of the queen mother is in the top 3 horses of all time then perhaps you ought to seek help. Physician heal thyself! |
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I was referring to Sprinter Sacre; whom I merely stated is one of my 3 favourite all time horses.
If you can't even comprehend a simple sentence structure then it's no wonder your ramblings are so misguided. |
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so when you say that the only horse to compare with altior is sprinter
and sprinter is in your top 3 of all time.. ..is it not logical to assume from that garbled post of yours that you believe altior is also in the top 3? Forgive me it appears i made a leap of faith there. |
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Since when is being a favourite horse implying you think he is in the best ever?
I said over 2m I have only seen SS good enough to perhaps beat Altior. Stop trying to make out I have made outlandish claims. Your pathetic desperation to crab Altior is impairing your judgement sir. |
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I think it may be fair to say that UDS might not be as good a horse as when he was beaten 15 lengths by SS.
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Looking at the history of the Queen Mother, there's been 11 double winners and only 1 triple winner so Badsworth boy got to be the champion of champions. Moscow Flyer would of joined him (going well when fell 4 out) and regained his crown following year. Sprinter got to be 3rd as to regain his crown after 3 years after injury was some performance.
As for Altior imo think he can join the top 3 time will tell. Interesting that Ted Walsh is the only amateur to win the champion chase. |
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I wont labour the point
i apologise if i misread your claim. there is a phenomenon known as 'recentism' When something good comes along it must be the best ever. Like Messi or ronaldo 'clearly' being the best footballers of all time. I remember in 1996 radio 1 had a poll to vote for the best pop record of all time. In their wisdom the bbc listeners voted 'youre gorgeous' by babybird as the number 1. It just happened to be the number 1 record at that time in 1996. says it all really. |
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UDS was beaten 3 and a bit in the champion then next time i.e the 15 length beating he made a chance ending mistake 3 out hence the much bigger margin,of course its all about jumping but to use this as a way to put SS ahead doesn't wash here and with UDS being first year out of novice status at the time who's to say he was at his peak then?
Altior all day for me. |
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I fooking hated that song.
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I was just being a bit mischievious,,,,I'd put SS ahead because his cruising speed would get the race won and accentuated Altior's flat spot....Incidentally this "flat spot", I get the impression that some refer to it as a mere trfle, something that Altior chooses to do...it's a point where he struggles to go the pace being asked, that's what it is. SS would keep that pressure up for longer and make it even harder for Altior, he use up more effort to keep up, it would have to effect his finishing burst.
Douvan was in the process of doing this in March but as soon as he fell Altior was let out of jail and the pace collapsed, said before, but between 3 and 2 out in Sprinters champion chase, what he did to SE is what Altior would suffer ....just my opinion of how I see it..that's all. |
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Its not just sheer numbers of wins though movewiththetimes, there can be huge differences of quality from year to year.
You couldn't say Best Mate was better than Kauto Star because he won more Gold Cups. Or that Lord Windermere was the equal of Denman. Moscow flyer, Azertiyoup and Well Chief were all rated higher, at the same time, than Altior is now. That was a wonderful era for 2 mile chasers. Well Chief never won a QM but in recent times Dodging Bullets and Special Tiara have won it. |
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....Newmill too.
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You can only beat what's there on the day- imo Istrabraq is the best champion hurdler but the field it beat was poor- but you can't takeaway the fact it turned up and destroyed it's rivals easily. No trainer is going to ever say to a Jockey before a championship race 'This is a poor field this year so make sure you win by 30 lengths so we can be rated with the best'.
You say Best mate wasn't a top horse (Was Fav for arkle when it got called off because of foot and mouth) but it never fell in race Kauto fell 3 times, I do believe that the Istrabraq and best mate would of pulled out more if the competition were better in there era. |
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Best Mate probably failed to win as many races as it won when in its prime.
Failed to win off 169, won 2 Gold Cups practically all out beating animals way inferior, although not a true rating showed its limitations for me, and if you go back and see what it did beat in those Gold Cups they were hardly vinatge. Did win 3 so its there in the records but thats the only thing that will keep it in the annals of history because the form shown time and time again would have it nearly 20lbs inferior to some winners of major races. Denman, Kauto, Dessie and thats without going back to the generations prior |
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Altior has never fallen and never been beaten over obstacles.
To suggest his 'flat spot' means he is 'struggling to go the pace asked' is laughable. If he was struggling I rather think he might have been beaten at least once. But no he just snores past everything in 7th gear. A race v a peak Sprinter would be interesting. |
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No I did not say that Best Mate wasn't a top horse, of course he was. But I would take Kauto Star to beat him over any trip at the same age.I would also take Hurricane fly over Istabraq,who won more Champion Hurdles but that's not saying Istabraq wasn't a top horse either.
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The thing for me when you talk about greats and the public they seem to fall in one of two categories to purists.
Theres the sexy machines, Kauto, Sacre etc they destroy others with the speed and athletic traits, the ones where you may be able to finish closer by running for second but when youre trying to win youre generally outjumped or left behind at the business end because you cant go championship pace like they can for the full distance. Then theres the Denmans and Dessies, the ones where theyve carried the weight and you know how good theyve been or were, the official ratings say so, and we all love the weight carrying performances. The ones we tend to struggle with for me are the ones who can be more workmanlike, we all like to see them but its hard for some to accept greatness unless the fields are packed with top quality animals and theyre destroyed without showing weakness at any stage |
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If somebody dare suggest Best Mate could beat Kauto Star then a village is missing an idiot.
KS is the best horse I have ever sen (wasn't around in Arkles day so can't compare). To take on and beat the best chasers around from 2m to 3m2f is incredible. Best Mate was wrapped in cotton wool and beat some real carthorses in his GC victories. |
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I think we can probably all agree Best Mate was upwards of a stone inferior to Kauto Star, i would say official figures on numerous occasions proved it
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To suggest his 'flat spot' means he is 'struggling to go the pace asked' is laughable.
Absolutely spot on. Its not so much a flat spot,but more a tendency to race a tad lazy at times. Soon as the jockey thinks he needs to shake him up,hes off and wins going away. Saturday he stayed close to UDS,Jockey kept him switched on cos he knew he could not afford for UDS to be too far ahead,and that will be the case in the future should he meet a rival that is a threat. Last March he had no real threat,he raced lazily and still won easily. Douvan was no threat,past his best,and even at his best he just kept beating a Gold Cup winner!! Altior different class. |
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A few of the the greats of the game have had ‘flat spots’. I tend to think these specimens are not only physically superior but are thinking faster as well.
Perhaps filling their lungs at the optimum point of a race produces the ‘flat spot’. |
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born to win sums up my feelings in his posts regarding altiors so called flat spots
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I was never a great fan of master minded but for a one off performance { a bit like the king george winner whos name escapes me }his first champion chase win takes some explaining on pure ratings it compares with any great performance before or since .cannot understand the altior knockers surely won the greatest supreme ever and has never really come close to being beat an absolute tool.
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I ama mazed if you will pardon the use of my esteemed cynics user name.I did not expect such a reaction to the thread.
Matters not as this is what makes the sport worth bothering about and maybe negates my concern that Altior might not get his dues.I think he has done (At least on this thread).Plenty recognise what he has already achieved and future targets have become of huge interest. Rightly or wrongly,I consider this Forum as the pulse of opinion and informed comment and my man at 7 Barrows would not disagree.He thinks that a King George would easily be in the compass of Altior.What he does say is that his owner does not seek the Kudos and NH has been curtailed in his exitement for the horse. The Champion Chase may seem the target but NH knows his potential and has done all along,he could easily step up in trip,not ground dependent.Once the CC is out of the way 1/6 he will have an entry for the KG next year,regardless of the outcome other than injury. BTW re-flat spots,expected from stayers but not 2 milers,natural for horses to take a gulp or two of air through a race,not a sign of a problem,one that can have that luxury in a 2 mile chase tells you that the horse has enough in reserve to continue the task in hand and more? |
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I think Altior post his next Champion Chase win in March at Cheltenham - all being well - will almost certainly step-up in trip to 20f. And if winning comprehensively and staying the new trip well, the King George must be on the agenda; the Gold Cup beckons if winning the KG well, I firmly believe.
Altior is a very, very good horse...as good as Desert Orchid? Maybe not yet, I think. |
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The first of Badsworth Boy’s three Champion Chase wins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqR8QKeP2rA |
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I thought the most interesting thing about those Badsworth Boy videos was the interview with Michael Dickinson. Refreshingly open in his comments.
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Badsworth Boy’s second win. Like a knife through butter in a big field.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSPPzZkBfdc |
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Badsworth Boy’s 3rd win
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1beCTpn0w58 |
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charwell. 10 Dec 18 18:26 Joined: 28 Sep 04 | Topic/replies: 8,443 | Blogger: charwell.'s blog
If somebody dare suggest Best Mate could beat Kauto Star then a village is missing an idiot. KS is the best horse I have ever sen (wasn't around in Arkles day so can't compare). To take on and beat the best chasers around from 2m to 3m2f is incredible. Best Mate was wrapped in cotton wool and beat some real carthorses in his GC victories. This is why the forum is dead, me an idiot so lol, this is why the bookies always make millions, run Kauto v best mate 20 times best mate wins 3 times without trying due to kautos ability to land on the floor and like i've always believe put the bad winners to the test and they will produce more. The best never did the winning in the last 5th of the race wnere the best crop of a bad year has too. A 5 furlong sprint wouldn't be good to any of the top 5. |