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James Doyle
James Doyle
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Hard to reply to that isn't it,
you are calling people "imbeciles", you think it was a "peach" and yet the jockey himself would disagree with you, ahem. |
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did the jockey not say she couldnt go the early pace?
he did exceptionally well to get so close imho |
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Hello Dealer,i think he said Kew garden couldn't go the early pace and he got stuck in behind him.
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The Arc is a race every racehorse owner would like to win similarly a professional jockey, and whose number 1 priority is to win (any) race, and not to obtain the best position for the horse. I understand hindsight is a wonderful thing nevertheless, who could say Sea Of Class who was about 15 lengths behind Enable was position to win the race.
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i heard an interview with him and was pretty sure he said she couldnt go the early pace, might well be wrong though as didnt catch it all. heard all of the owners interview and it was very good, a top bloke who sees the sport for what it can be.
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a split second decision could have him in a poor or too far back position, personally i dont think that makes it a bad ride, as a lot depends on what happens through the race. only my opinion but i thought it was a very good ride and he just needed that small piece of luck up the straight, that he didnt get, or he would have won.
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it's as if you can parachute a horse into midfield at will like you drop the Google Earth man, the way people are saying he should have simply sat closer
..if SOC had gone forward of Kew Gardens (drawn just inside her), she would have been stuck wide and risked running freely as she used to...Doyle maybe lost a length on them entering the straight, as the field kicked entering the straight and being in last he was thus the last to kick, but it would of been in his mind that you cant expect a turn of foot to last fully 3f anyway..thing he's being hard on himself tbh |
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^ Fair posts and can see your points, i can see also others saying the hold up tactics were wrong as it wasn't giving the filly enough credit as being more than one dimensional.
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As regards tactics you would only know if a horse is one dimensional if you actually tried something different. Perhaps she would have been beaten further had the jock tried something different but on the other hand she might have won. Nobody can answer that question for certain. It seems to me tactics were effectively set in stone. I think someone made a fair point about hold-up tactics in general. I never quite understand why a hold-up horse has to be last.
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I never quite understand why a hold-up horse has to be last
if you're a hold-up horse drawn 4, you dont have to be last...if you're drawn 16, likelihood is only horses you are going to have behind you are other hold-up horses drawn 17+ |
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I do not wish to be mean to Doyle but it was not a good ride he gave to Sea Of Class, why? Any rider who gave the reigning champion of a prestigious Gp 1 race with a plum position a 15 length start in a 12f race till the last 3f positioned at the back of a 19 runner field, and then tried to come up the inside would be correctly and fairly be accused of not riding the horse according to its merit, but for luck; a repeat of his riding of Sea Of Class in The Irish Derby against Enable in The Arc would very unlikely to result in a positive outcome, I believe.
How did Waldgeist and Cloth Of Stars both hold-up horses manage to secure midfield positions? Did Doyle not realise early on that he was in a near hopeless (win) position, or had he already accepted his faith then? Personally, I think finishing fast and nearly winning (2nd) in the most prestigious race in Europe but too late is worse than finishing down the field after having every chance. |
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From the outside draws you either go forward and sit or anchor and sit.
I don't think their was any adapting to what Enable was doing. He was always going to anchor and sit. |
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How did Waldgeist and Cloth Of Stars both hold-up horses manage to secure midfield positions?
drawn inside her in 13 and 9...to have taken a position in advance of them, SOC would have had to overtake them on outside in first furlong, risking both not getting in at all and running the race totally opposite to her run style...they were never going to do that |
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spot on, dd 19:49
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Go and lie down Duncan you moron, how in gods name was he not entitled to react to what way enable was being ridden . To give such a clear and obvious danger an advantage like he did was criminal riding , and he paid the penalty. He did the same in the Curragh and fluked getting away with it.
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 tatty bye |
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Good man Duncan , smiley always a great guide.
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Jimeen you come across as quite a spiteful and rather stupid pocket talker.
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The criticism of Doyle is quite bizarre imo. Did no one watch the previous runs of Sea Of Class, did no one see her draw, did no one consider that O'Brien was running pacemakers for strong stayer Kew Gardens and therefore you had to expect a very strong pace. Doyle did absolutely nothing wrong and in fact it was an excellent ride. Perhaps if the pacemakers had gone a stronger pace rather than a relatively even pace Sea of Class would have won. Perhaps if the draws of Sea of Class and Enable had been reversed she would have won.
With regard to sitting last Richard Hughes made a very good interesting point earlier in the season (maybe in the build up to the stewards cup?) as to why he often sat last in a race on a hold up performer. He argued that from that position you can see everyone in front of you and you can decide which route to take rather than having horses around you or pocketing you and actually having to rely on other jockeys decisions. He would argue that you are much more likely to get a clear run from last place rather than from 2/3rds of the way back because you make the choices. It's perhaps why Spencer often does the same. |
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The Stewards Cup is no Arc; Enable is a proven Gp 1 winner of The Arc, and was lobbing happily and easily just behind the pacesetters with Sea Of Class - the young pretender - about 15l behind in 2nd last position in a 19 runner race with a wall of horses to overcome. Doyle then tried to come up the inside,...changed course at the critical juncture, and just failed by a head after making ground had over fist on Enable who went 3l clear in the last furlong.
Even the hold-up horses eg Waldgeist and Cloth Of Stars (an Arc season placed campaigner) were in midfield throughout the race. |
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Charwell your a ferkin bellend end of. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because it's not yours doesn't mean it's wrong. Pa lapsy and impossible123 make very good points. I fail to see to how it can be classed as a good ride when you get beaten by such a shirt margin. Doyle rode the horse from off the pace to finish late as it likes to be ridden. The reason he ferkerd up is he sat too far back but in the false straight had the choice to go wide and have a clear run like GOD did on dancing brave. Not saying she is as good as DB but Doyle chose Instead to stay inside and paid the price. Guys on here who blankly defend jockeys need to wake up as I've stated before you don't need to be a brickie to know if a wall is ferkin straight. By the way Hughes and frank annoy the ferk out of me as jockeys playing the waiting game. The amount of times they've sat and gone damn ferkerd that up not going to win will coast in fifth and rob all the each way punters pair batards. JOCKEYS MAIN RULE OBTAIN THE BEST POSSIBLE POSITON. That may include having to actually whip a horse omg imagine a jockey using the whip to get third lmfao.
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It's horse racing, and it's history; no body died. Let's move on!
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I'm not sure anyone's lives are going to be improved any by criticizing jockeys, but I'd be interested in asking, if there's anyone who has ever ridden looking in, whether a 'hold up horse' absolutely has to be positioned at the very back of the pack, rather than in midfield, if the objective is just to get switched off and find cover?
Obviously it's a lot easier to be the last to play your hand if you're six lengths off the pace rather than twelve. Doyle had an opportunity as the stalls opened to make up quite a few places by kicking on for a few strides (even by diverting up the rail if you look at the vision from behind the stalls), and if you really want to dissect it, waiting for the entire field to pass him before dropping in is where he made his life much harder, in my view. Personally I'm not so sure Sea of Class needs to be ridden with these extreme hold up tactics - maybe the last gasp win in the Irish Oaks ultimately turned out to be a double edged sword, as if they'd been beaten there, as they easily could have been given the tactics, they would surely have thought again, and she'd probably now be an Arc winner... |
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Good points mill house and also look how he ran at York, he took it up 2 out and stayed all the way to the line. Had no need to be hiddenlike one of those dodgy old sprinters lol. If you want a master class on how to ride an arc winner for a turn of foot then watch GOD on dancing brave he takes a pull from the start then sits 3 wide all the way through (therefore avoiding trouble) and legend shows the result. Doyle rode the filly for luck and he probably had his fair share to get where he did but ultimately sitting so far back cost him the race not the wide draw. It was pilot error pure and simple. Ffs he was still 10 lengths down coming into the straight. Btw millhouse just one dig I'm not sure we are trying to improve our lives by having a go at bad rides lol. Imo if someone does a crap job they fully deserve to be slated. I'm sure you can think of many comparisons when you've been p.ssed off by someone doing a crap job ie dodgy take away, not been paid overtime due etc. For some strange reason jockeys seem to have this weird protection form certain punters and defo from the media. I would love the guys on itv to say ffs that was a **** ride. Football pundits don't have a prob saying a player has played crap so why should jockeys be exempt. I'm sure all the gay brigade will be on its harder to ride a horse than kick a football. That's not the point if you chose a profession you should do it to the best of your ability and for a jockey that means winning, Doyle got beat and should have won therefore bad ride imo
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And I backed enable and felt I'd got away with it before anyone says armchair jockey
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Some of the points raised, Waldgeist, Cloth of Stars and a couple drawn wide were in midfield [were Doyle should have been] according to some, but they all finished out with the washing.
Doyle choosing to track Ryan Moore - i'd expected Moore to make more use of his amount as it stays 14f no problem. That would have given Doyle a toe into the race if he had wanted it. Everyone knew pre-race Doyle was gonna hold up the horse, given the draw. He also said he would need luck in running, but Frankie did everything right on the winner. If Frankie hadn't kicked on when he did, Doyle would have cut him down inside the last 100m and we wouldn't be having this conversation. |
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james hit the front around about 4 metres from the line at the curragh he hit the front around 2 metres after the line in paris
when you're riding them like that it's a very fine line ... |
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It is completely irrelevant what Frankie Dettori did in the race, he rode his horse the way it should have been ridden , but James Doyle didn’t . An earlier poster makes a good point, if he hadn’t got away ( and he was poxed to do so )with the messing he did in the Curragh, he’d have ridden his horse completely differently in Paris . When you are riding to get up in the last stride, then you are a knobbend, pure and simple . Through history , those prickks never really achieved what they could have had . Hughes Spencer Carberry them kind of imbeciles, never won the big races with regularity that their talent deserved. They all lost retainers too , throughout their career, and were always overlooked by top connections.
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I can't name 5 better jump jockeys than Paul Carberry - nor can you.
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Jimeen perfect post mate almost too perfect lol. Agree 100% about Hughes,frank and carberry and there's a whole lot more mate past and present. I could name 100 black rock!!!!!
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Carberry was A God in the saddle ffs....Give yer heed a wobble jim.
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Hughes Spencer Carberry them kind of imbeciles, never won the big races with regularity that their talent deserved
[b]Doyle rode the filly for luck and he probably had his fair share to get where he did but ultimately sitting so far back cost him the race not the wide draw........ I'm sure all the gay brigade will be on its harder to ride a horse than kick a football.[/b] Has to be Davetwat and Mugeen are one and the same. No two people could be that charmless and ignorant surely? |
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Davethehat backed Enable apparently
Perhaps he should chill and have a w@nk. |
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Charwell not sure where Jimeen from but I'm Yorkshire loud and proud and no Ferker gets better of me our motto is fight until you die. Not ignorant At all we are all equal and allowed an option there is nobody on this earth thinks a losing ride that should have won is a god ride unless they are ferkin muppets. I did Borntowin in a double with battaash oops. Yorkshire folk tell it how it is? I'm just Persed off with the current crop of jocks who think they can ride when they choose. Quote from templegate in sun today " was fortunate to hang on from fast-finishing sea of class". That's a perfect analysis of the race Doyle ferkerd up grow a pair and admit it. I agree totally with that I backed enable and even though Crowley ferkerd up my double I still feel lucky that enable won.
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With regard to sitting last Richard Hughes made a very good interesting point earlier in the season (maybe in the build up to the stewards cup?) as to why he often sat last in a race on a hold up performer. He argued that from that position you can see everyone in front of you and you can decide which route to take rather than having horses around you or pocketing you and actually having to rely on other jockeys decisions
Yeah including the winner pasting the winning post ffs |
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Sorry Dave I only speak English so I am unable to respond to whatever half baked mutterings you have trotted out.
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Although I made out the word 'Sun.' If that's your reading material then it does explain quite a lot.
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Charwell my points are made in a way even muppets like you can understand. I think you are being classist lmao. I reckon you are what we call in Yorks a ten Bob millionaire.
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