Beating the Premium charge. Help please

Yes.

no

SS.........that doesn't sound fair if you are right.........I think the best advice is join one of betfairs rivals

Surely by correctly identifying winning or losing horses without resorting to trading, should not carry a penalty? Bookmakers used to charge a % when placing a bet or take a percentage from winning bets if tax was not paid prior. Tax was abolished. So how can Betfair tax a successful punter based on the above criteria. It is pretty much a similar position as a bookie banning you for knowing what you are doing. As Betfair acts as a middle man, they have no right in theory.

cranky.........I pay it but I used to trade .....I don't trade anymore so this account is almost never used.........20% takes away any chance of doing a bet on here

cranky.........I pay it but I used to trade .....I don't trade anymore so this account is almost never used.........20% takes away any chance of doing a bet on here

oops

I have an account on another exchange..........get my bet on at roughly same odds...........no 20%

someone has to pay for betfair's MASSIVE promotion of the exchange for goodness sake

OK Let's look at it another way. Any income accrued from GAMBLING cannot be taxed by any Government. So if I decide to gamble ( note the word gamble ) on the favourite winning or losing the first race, and I am successful, how can Betfair take on the role of HMRC and tax me for being good at my job. They can't. From my winnings they have already taken a percentage. In my opinion as I do not trade, they have no more entitlement

big surprise that no other exchange as taken  advantage of betfair charging PC.........other firms have a massive advantage but even with an handicap betfair are still miles ahead of all the other firms combined...............its a mystery

Indeed

if you are a very successful layer the way the PC is set up I suppose you will be caught in the net

What about if you only backed horses to win or be placed without any laying involved, would Betfair still apply their charge?

SS will know but if you was a value punter and backed big prices so you would have far more losers than winners but still show profit I don't think you would be liable for PC charge

It looks like if Betfair continue being greedy, at some point I shall have to have a family member or friend open an account from which I can start all over again. Seems the only way around it.

ive payed £3700 in PC charges which is tiny compared to most people

cranky......what sort of bets do you do??

Yes. Consider what Mr Shafter is likely to be paying each month. But that is understandable as he is a trader. On an average day, I would place a win and place bet on between 1 - 8 races. In other words 2 - 16 bets daily. 20% stake on the win market & the other 80% on the place market

I don't know if you would be caught...........willie would be the one to tell you............knowing betfair probably......you first need to win 5k............so up to then you don't need to worry.

they give you a £1,000 allowance once that's gone you start paying..

Thanks for your input Cardiff

cranky............is your allowance still £1,000??

I would not know how to find out

click on to your account............then betting activity.................you will see premium charge.........that will tell you how much allowance you have left??

I do have another selfish reason for wanting to understand how Betfair apply their charges in relation to non traders. I admit to being a geek and over the last 6 years have designed a number of systems. Some which were sold directly, others which involved a subscription. Un fortunately subscriptions tend to have a short life span as people do not have the intelligence to keep info to themselves to achieve the top end profits. Once it becomes evident that tips are being spread and odds are tumbling, which in effect was reducing my top end, such services were closed. I had a guy design a betting bot which targeted the average odds on Oddschecker within a certain price range just before the off. Everybody was making a fortune. But after a while, Oddschecker refused the bot access. And as the system was quite complicated, that pretty much finished it. Seems gamblers are not allowed to prosper sometimes.

trade, back , lay , lay to back , etc

makes no difference. PC is calculated as to your profit versus how much commission you have generated to get that profit .

so a person on 20% PC

win £100 profit , but generated £20 in commission , no PC to pay


win £100 profit , but generated £10 in commission , PC to pay is £10

that's it in general terms

Pablo..........its possible anyone could be caught

Pablo.......what type of punter would escape the net??...

Someone with lots of wins and losses who is paying plenty of commission organically.

win £100 profit , but generated £20 in commission , no PC to pay

cardiff , someone who has lots of wins and lots of losses MAY escape the net . it's all about commission you have generated compared to profit.

laltalomne

Pablo............seems an unfair tax..........anybody not trading should not  be liable

cardiff, it is an unfair tax . i know this may sound silly , but not even betfair like it anymore . it's just they have become so use to it as an income to bolster profits .

only when it accounts for 1%-2% of their profits will they drop it , or if the USA have an exchange , they may have to re-jig it

just my opinion of course

read on here that in the future this could be a ppi type situation where people might be able to claim the money back.....that would be nice

20% is fair enough (if calculated on actual commission).  Anything above that is robbery particularly when it isn't based on actual commission but the (3% + x%)/2 method.

Excuse me but Mr Shaffer ain't a dirty trader

Firstly shafty aint a trader, though I dont quite know what your interpretation of a trader is.

Secondly it doesnt matter how you operate, if your commission paid to gross profits are under a set % they come and unaturally take the rest upto a certain leel depending on how much you have won in total since being here.

Thirdly, they are reviewing the PC, 50 of us are given allowances for being large net layers in markets and have our PC reduced each week as a result, its a trial hopefully it will be permanent.

dusty . i was told that the allowance will be for those that don't take from the boxes, but put offers up , for both backing or laying .

betfair are just nit picking imo . sure it's a good start that they are trying something , but they need to just make it fairer across the board and not worry about making it even more confusing .

get rid of the 40%-60% for a start, that's just scandalous .

I was told it was because layers are risking more and effectively adding liquidity which then gets converted over the selections due to the cross matcher, dont know if theyve also added people who put up their own odds as well

I think layers are more valuable and have dried up in the most part as most are backers.
There maybe truth to what you say but I havnt heard that.

@pablo

"if the USA have an exchange , they may have to re-jig it" - BF have had an Exchange in the US for a couple of years (in New Jersey).  Most they might have to do is charge US players differently, I haven't seen their US T&Cs so can't tell.

"get rid of the 40%-60% for a start, that's just scandalous" - why scandalous?  I have a HR strategy that's doing what I'd consider very well, and over the 5 years it's been running I've paid 48% of my gross profit to BF in commission, and I'll never be a PC payer.  I'd guess most successful recreational punters on here pay 40%+ of their profits over, but it's only PC that seems to attract attacks for the high % of players' profits BF takes.

You need both.  Layers don't bother laying if they don't think anyone is going to take what they put up.  Over the last few years there has been a desperate lack of price takers in a lot of the markets that I play.

Possibly linked to them all being directed to BFSB!

Well apparently there is a shortage of those offering lys to those prepared to back, which is what I was told, hence why only certain ppl are offered it

This was the argument I always maintained, liquidity (real, matched liquidity) is king.  Once the backers disappear, so will the layers.  And so it goes on.  It becomes a death spiral.

longbridge, whay irks most PC payers is that 'traditional betting' involved lots of winning to losses which naturally created large % commission. People dont try to be as inefficient as possible, they try to do as well as they can, so traditional bettors whould try to be more efficient and pay less commission as a result.
But the PC is an artificial way to chastise success which everyone wishes to be.
To beat your oponent is one thing... but then to have the same fines for doing so is quite another.

longbridge , i remember you saying that before .

i have no edge, use betfair video and RUK for in-running , with gruss. back and lay in running and pre race .

i don't think i should be in the 40%-60% bracket regardless of how much commission i generate, do you ?

You clearly do have an edge, PF, but you do not have what I consider to be an unfair edge (same boat as myself).

A great point Dusty. In my opinion Betfair has no right to take more than its share. Anything above its position as the middle man is tantamount to theft. Especially if one is merely taking a position of a straight lay or back bet.

i have no edge greater than anyone else has or can get  tbh latalomne

the same way as a good poker player will always beat a poor poker player in the long run . no one can see eachothers cards or what is about to be turned over for the flop etc .

facetime, on course players, those in the know. that is an edge

Don't get me wrong, PF, I'm not accusing you of anything, just pointing out that if you're in the 40-60% PC camp you clearly have an edge on the market (through your superior judgement)   Clearly you should not be punished for this.

To OP: depends how successful you are with you're approach.

As already noted by others, it's dependent on the ratio of commission generated to gross profits, and this needs to remain above 20% (if net lifetime winnings are below 250k) and 40% (if greater than 250k) if you wish to avoid being subject to any PC. To put some numbers to this, ie what sort of edge you can get away with before paying it, it depends on the average price you bet at. If you're a straight overs/unders better on the footy for example, and are betting always around the 2.0 mark, it's more straight forward, but if you bet on the nags at a range of prices it's more messy.

Consider you're lifetime is below 250k, then you need the ratio above 20%. Let's assume 5% commission. Then at a given average price, these are the ROIs that put you right on the threshold; if you have good run maybe you'll be subject to PC, but a bit below this and you should always be fine, barring a really massive win.

Ave Price   ROI(%)
1.5         4.83
2.0         7.49
3.0         10.35
5.0         12.79
10.0        14.71

Now for a big hitter, lifetime > 250k, and on 2% commission:

Ave Price   ROI(%)
1.5         1.36
2.0         2.07
3.0         2.79
5.0         3.38
10.0        3.83

If betfair seeded the exchage and took on risk rather than simply being a tech company offering a platform I could see the point of PC.
But as far as the exchange is concerned they are not a bookie.

I understand the idea behind the PC charge regarding traders. As they generally make a lot of bets on each race. If you worked in the City as a trader, you are taxed and I think that was the main reason for the PC charge. No doubt by Government instruction.

Much simpler than that.
They saw the most successful were taking out large amounts due to their ability and bf couldnt stand it.

thanks latalomne , and i know you weren't accusing me of anything.

i think we all agree that when it comes to betting on horse racing , an edge is know or having soemthing that others don't . fast pics, inside info etc.

i have nothing ( apart from tips from bigmart,,,,,,,,,,,to offset PC of course )

Sep 12, 2018 -- 9:55AM, dustybin wrote:

If betfair seeded the exchage and took on risk rather than simply being a tech company offering a platform I could see the point of PC.But as far as the exchange is concerned they are not a bookie.

I would be extremely surprised if they are not seeding a substantial number of markets nowadays.

Someone needs to test this in a courtroom then don't they??

See if it really does constitute theft??

Latalomne
I think its telling they are offering some of us sweets to do that seeding

My approach is to find favourites I believe have a great chance of winning, but more importantly being placed. OK I may find a selection drifting out from the early morning favourite to 3rd favourite come race time. Alternatively in races where I believe the favourite can't win, I look to find the winner beyond the favourite. So generally the odds I target will rarely go into double figures.

The blockchain will blow legacy exchanges out of the water in the not too distant future.

No fraud
No commission
No PC
Shared global liquidity

Can you explain please Richie?

Betfair is not a tax institution. Yet it behaves as one.

Expenses will be non-existent. No advertising, regulation etc

Thank you

Bettors are viewed as degenerate by nature, the change of tax rules in 2000 was all the vidence you need to see that the govnt are happy to help corporations as they collect al the profits, employ people etc...while they wont even acknowledge that 'professional gambling' is a trade.

The more Betfair takes in profit, the more it pays in taxes. Taking the issue before a court would most likely be found in favour of Betfair due to that fact. Too much money at stake for the political grabbers

no it would be "found in favour" because it is by and large legal.  The only possibility being that the "commission charges" used in the calculation are inaccurate.

Sep 12, 2018 -- 10:00AM, dustybin wrote:

LatalomneI think its telling they are offering some of us sweets to do that seeding

Yes and no.  Take these God-awful new handicap markets (not racing).  BF/PP (I am fairly certain) are quite happy to price them at 110%, but that just isn't going to cut it on the Exchange. 

They're not going to seed markets to operate at 102%, though you could argue they should given how the Exchange is supposed to make them money.

Legal is not the same as lawful. Betfair are unlawfully acting the same as HMRC. If the Government cannot tax you on your winnings, how can Betfair legally or lawfully.

wonder if its worth a legal team taking up a no win no fee challenging it in courts......could make someone a fortune

Cardiff

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