Hell of an FOBT 'discussion'/phone in on Radio 5Live, now

FOBT players are not banned. They are nurtured, embraced and loved. Unlike horse punters who are treated with suspicion and sometimes hostility. Shomething wring shurely.....

What amazes me is that the bookies have a built in edge of 2.7% on the roulette machines but can have up an average of say 20% edge on horse racing and dogs and even overrounds of up to 140% on Irish racing.

I'm led to believe that if you put say 50 quid on black in the bookies it's randomly generated. But is it? If I go into a casino and stick 50 on black that wheel has no idea what my bet is.

No they have a guaranteed edge on roulette. That’s why they love it. All sports betting is based on theoretical edges.

So it is randomly generated?

** As in a casino?

stick to CBeebies stew

Mar 5, 2018 -- 7:09PM, 1st time poster wrote:

I,m not defending them never used one, I,m laughing at people ,losing 10,s of 1000,s of pounds on horses already beaten ,fallen[people with fast pics taking unsuspecting punters to the cleaners ,pretending theiur worried about peole doing their nuts on fotb,s,when in reality they are just using them as an excuse to have a pop at [ think the last phrase rancid bookmakers ],who,s more rancid bookmakers or people on here with fast pics laying fallen,injured horses ante post etc,etc,

addictions a weird thing, ive had problems with and would class myself as having been addicted to gambling in the past, however I can go from smoking 10 cigarettes a day to none, will often smoke 10 or more in a day then go 7 days without one and it doesn't effect me. Weird aint it :/

Sorry 1sttime not sure why I quoted you there, must have pressed it by mistake

Stewart b, yes the machines are completely random, the money is made on the house edge of each game for slots it can be as big as 20% per spin. (i.e. the average probabilies of each winning line compared to now winning lines).

If we take a standard bookies roulette game; 20p Roulette as an example. 20p Roulette is a computerised version of standard European roulette, and as such has 37 possible positions Roulette Machinesfor the ball to land in, 0 through to 36. The odds returned to the player are 35/1 plus your winning stake back, making the odds returned 36/1. The house edge (bookies profit) is the remaining one number, which gives the player a long-term average percentage of 97.2%, with the bookies making on average 2.8%. The speed of play, combined with the amount of fixed odds betting terminals across the country converts this small percentage into huge profits for the four (soon to be three) major betting chains; Ladbrokes, Coral, William Hill and Betfred.

The machines are not completely random someone has to program a sequence maybe not exactly but within certain parameters so it cant be random as its a computer

equine flew 06 Mar 18 21:23 Joined: 28 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 2,256 | Blogger: equine flew's blog
Stewart b, yes the machines are completely random, the money is made on the house edge of each game for slots it can be as big as 20% per spin. (i.e. the average probabilies of each winning line compared to now winning lines).

If we take a standard bookies roulette game; 20p Roulette as an example. 20p Roulette is a computerised version of standard European roulette, and as such has 37 possible positions Roulette Machinesfor the ball to land in, 0 through to 36. The odds returned to the player are 35/1 plus your winning stake back, making the odds returned 36/1. The house edge (bookies profit) is the remaining one number, which gives the player a long-term average percentage of 97.2%, with the bookies making on average 2.8%. The speed of play, combined with the amount of fixed odds betting terminals across the country converts this small percentage into huge profits for the four (soon to be three) major betting chains; Ladbrokes, Coral, William Hill and Betfred.


I know how roulette works e f but how do you know it's random and cannot be manipulated to give the bookies more profit? It happened in the past with the old one arm bandits. I know if I stick 50 quid on black my true odds of winning are 18/19 but is this the case with FOBT's?

Like I mentioned before, if I stick 50 on black in a casino the wheel has no idea of my bet. I'm suspicious as to if this is the same in a bookies as putting the same bet on there is open to manipulation surely?

It is a fact any electronic equipment can be configured/programmed accordingly to achieve its objective, and fobt is no different.

There's absolutely no point in the books somehow manipulating the FOBTs stewarty. There's c 8000 shops in UK. Each has an average of something like 3.8 machines (there are some shops which due to space limitations have less than 4). At the minimum negative EV of 2.7% (some games are higher) they are already guaranteed to win long term. Presently they make on average £1000 per terminal PER WEEK. That for precious little effort. No odds compilers, no risk management and minimal staff costs (an emptier is more or less all that's needed).

That's why they love 'em.

Why on earth risk that for short term gain when you're going to get the dough anyway?

I listened to the interview and the arrogant, almost defiant attitude of Billy's Communications Director certainly didn't help, but it was a complete train wreck as far as the industry propaganda they were clearly hoping to spew over the airwaves was concerned.

I only wish Stephen Nolan knew that FOBTs were only the top part of a very large iceberg when it comes to the obscene commercial activities of the bookmaking industry in this country...

There's c 8000 shops in UK


You can at least half that if the maximum bet is reduced to £2. That said, impossible123 backs up my point.

** It's called greed.

@know all

"The machines are not completely random someone has to program a sequence maybe not exactly but within certain parameters so it cant be random as its a computer"

Not true AIUI - I think gambling applicatiosn use hardware RNGs (Random Number Generators) which are proveably properly random - they're used for encryption so they have to be.

This is my brief take of fobt from conversations with people within the software and gaming industry. 

It is true RNG will generate a random winning number but fobt does not operate in the same manner as a casino machine ie a player cannot be consistently lucky and produce a series of wins playing fobt unlike a casino machine where one can win a large amount (if one is extremely lucky) and the casino could lose a small fortune. Thus, one does not hear a fobt player winning big unlike a casino machine player.

The payout ratio of fobt is also fixed but can be altered (if necessary). However, the payout on the fobt is governed by the "hopper" effect eg if the hopper is full then there is a more likelihood of a payout in the immediate future and the lucky player will win at the expense of the previous player/s who'd unknowingly topped up the hopper with their money. However, if the hopper is empty eg the machine had just paid-out the hopper will need to be topped-up (by an unlucky player) before a payout can happen again. And this could be some considerable time because the ratio of the overall payout is also governed by the overall takings eg if the overall taking is only 1/3 of target ie the ratio has not been reached then no payout in the immediate future until it has.

Because of the number of machines in the bookies the bookies can be assured they will always win given the fixed payout ratio; hopper effect; limited funds of any player to play till hopper effect is payout positive; ratio of overall payout to overall taking eg on a quiet day a lower number of payouts.

I've often seen runs of 5 blacks or 5 reds sometimes more saw the same number come out 3 times out of 4 spins when not covered these machines are not random.Go to your local bookies on a weekend and see the despair these machines cause.Its a lazy way for people to bet takes no skill and the speed gives the buzz or despair yes people do win these machines are not the same as casino roulette.

The "Hopper" effect???? Hmm.

Interesting post impossible123 I didn't know that

It's not surprising you didn't know it.

AT Gentings last week saw a run of 22 yes 22 black numbers on the bounce, so that must mean the wheel is not random....in the long term the edge with the Fobts is exactly the same as live roulette.Cannot believe this fixed theory emerges every time Fobts are mentioned.

I'd only heard of the 'hopper' connected to bandit machines

nortons
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07 Mar 18 19:37 Joined: 29 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 826 | Blogger: nortons's blog
AT Gentings last week saw a run of 22 yes 22 black numbers on the bounce, so that must mean the wheel is not random....in the long term the edge with the Fobts is exactly the same as live roulette.Cannot believe this fixed theory emerges every time Fobts are mentioned.




A bit of a contradiction there?

Tbh I was surprised too with the mention of the hopper. Nevertheless, one must not forget or ignore the fact fobt is evil. We do not have casinos in the high street - these entities are mainly out-of-town - so why are fobt with a £100 max per spin very 20 second be allowed to be housed in these premises on the high street?

Frequency of play, immediate reward and accessibility are three key ingredients to inducing an addiction. And fobt has these in abundance.

there is no such thing as a hopper effect on fobts

Did you read the self confessed fobt addict on here a few years ago...covered every number up to 30 ...10 spins...8 or 9 in the 30s i cant renember which..its a crazy crazy world where anything is possible but an iq of about over 10 is needed to put 2 and 2 together there

'the dealer'...could you please expand? I did have my reservation when that (hopper effect) was explained to me. Could it be an electronic version? Also, why has there been no big fobt winner (stand to be corrected) since its existence compare to many the machines in the casinos?

All machines on each estate are linked eg every machine on the Hills estate are linked together. One mans loss will be another mans gain but Hills will still make there weekly profit. Shops will show a loss at times but others will make up for that and more.

Really good interview, Why cant we have move interview radio DJS like this guy?! There is not much doubt that the £2 maxiumum will be enforced. Actually £2 per spin on a FOTB machine you can do hundred very fast.

Heres my view £2 per spin need to be £1 ever played a FOTB machine for £50 and no bonus? Happens all the time

What im trying to say is putting a FOTB on auto spin for £2 on a slot, how long to get through a hundred quid for a problem gambler? not more than 5 mins?  Thats still £100 gone into the bookmakers hands.

We should be like Ireland no FOTB in shops. I think its the end of FOBT in general.

The Gambling Commission better step up, particularly online and do their job.

The dealer and impossible, there is no hopper effect.  EVERY SPIN on ANY MACHINE is INDEPENDENT and MUTUAL EXCLUSIVE of preview plays, that is fact.  It doesn't matter if the previous spins paid out max £500 winning.

Obviously machines by be ****, but the big bookies are independently tested, and there is no need to manipulate them.  The house edge and bad play, multipled by the vast number of machine means they always win.

If during an independent test, the machines were found to be cheating there would be uproar and calls for an instant ban and compensation to be paid.

Correct EF sorry my wording wasnt great. I was trying to make the point that shops will lose at times, daily, weekly but in the long run the profit is guaranteed

By "bad play", I mean a lot of player will double up.   If you are playing against someone with a finite back, you may get lucky and keep winning until the other person has run out of money.   

However, on a FOTB you are playing against unlimited funds and eventually these players always come unstuck and lose it all.  Often after just two or 3 spins.  The bookmakers 97.3% house edge sounds fair and you may think you get a lot of "fun" for you money, but the doubling up strategy played by many, many punters mean the money is gone in an instance.   Bookies love these plays as they will always come unstuck

for 99% of punters thinking theres more skill placing a horse racing bet ,than playing a fobt is a joke,it ddoesnt take skill to write down fsav,2nd fav,frsankies ,ryans mounts,grandma,s,kids names etc,etc,ive never played a fobt in my life but would imagine someone who plays them all the time,due to staking etc has a far better chance than someone using them for the 1st time,same as fruit machines, would thsat bne true or false

A lot easier to put a small bet on the horses for that afternoon and walk out than just put £5 in an fobt and walk away.

For a problem gambler I should have said

'The Hopper Effect' ....Don't remotely enter cash from your card as is not going to have the same effect as stuffing it with twenties then, I'd have thought.

The key word they use is random people tend to believe that.I would like the bookies to explain how they use the word random and what they meant by it.

Random means without pattern or where every outcome has an equal probability, Skygreenzone.

Yes but anyone who plays the machines know thats not true does it meen which machine pays out is random?

'equine flew'...mutually independent and exclusive, that has always been my understanding too. However, interesting though a player could be playing against other players in the same estate eg billies, one against a possible 2000+ (1/4 of 9000 fobt in total).

If so, that would significantly reduce the player's chance of winning if was just playing against the other 3 players in the same shop, assuming 4 fobt housed. Also, because the ratio of win is set against the overall takings of the estate that could explain why there had not been a player experiencing a lucky streak ie a series of successive wins.

I think bookie reps need to explain clearly and in in details how a win is generated and under what perimeters.

Impossible123, are you on a fishing trip?

How can anyone know whether they are random or not just by playing the machines?
What do they look out for?

Many will try and find a reason for their loss and claim that they are not random
but that wont stop them playing the machine again.

Why wouldn't the machines be random?I can see no benefit to the bookie in cheating.
Very little to gain and everything to lose.

And if they are not random there would have been a whistleblower by now.

the number is sent by a random number generator, the argument will always be there, as to how the generator selects a number.

Of cause they are random

Whatever would be the point in fixing it

Not that the addicted would give a f o o k they would still bang away

See mr cover his ears tonight wac

Experts?How many of you people have been near a fobt.

'pixie'...no! If people in the industry cannot be totally precise how could an outsider? Maybe the bookies can enlighten.

Dunno what' that has to do with in all honesty sky

I ain't been near a volcano but I know they are dangeorous

If you watch how easy it is to lose 100's of pounds in a few minutes because they are the ultimate chase your losses because you see the word random you think i must have a chance of getting my money back when your fate has already been decided before you bet.

Fobt possesses every ingredient necessary to induce addiction. Fobt is evil, and extremely addictive - that is the fact. The bookies know it; the betting shop managers know it but unable to share it with the public as their jobs are at risk. But in private none has disputed it.

Fobt is not known as the "crack cocaine" of gambling/gaming for nothing!

I think you might of said all of that once before.

found a thread from 8 years ago about randomness.

The addiction issue is beyond doubt,I had a mate who knew what was coming out as soon as the picture of the wheel came up on the screen every time think how much you'd have had to play to be able to do that.
He'd go 27 then turn around write a bet out and go off to the counter as it was still spinning then bosh 27,it's criminal tbh.

in certain roulette games the number that comes up is directly opposite from where the ball comes out. its really irrelevant though because as soon as he hits the spin button the number is generated, everything else is just for show and to waste sometime

1st time lucky! I was given a £5 free bet from a high street bookie: put £1 each on 5 numbers in the roulette. And bingo, one was a winner; it paid 35 squids. Bid fobt bye, bye, and put the lot on horses (antepost for Cheltenham).

The simple fact is lads, these FOBT are highly addictive to potentially Everyone and of course vunverable people, and bookmakers prey apoun this Imo.

The same way bookmakers want the mug punters ie: James and Jeff Look at their past adverts that they are cleary targeting.
The latest software for the FOTB is a joke believe me. The gambling commission better soon step in, who WE all pay for by the way, need to step in NOW.

FOBT will be £2 and I see a situation where even £2 is damaging and will be completely banned. Those are my views.

I think responsibility lays with the bookmaker with these machines.

cheers

1st time poster 08 Mar 18 12:22 Joined: 25 Dec 05 | Topic/replies: 25,969 | Blogger: 1st time poster's blog

for 99% of punters thinking theres more skill placing a horse racing bet ,than playing a fobt is a joke,it ddoesnt take skill to write down fsav,2nd fav,frsankies ,ryans mounts,grandma,s,kids names etc,etc,ive never played a fobt in my life but would imagine someone who plays them all the time,due to staking etc has a far better chance than someone using them for the 1st time,same as fruit machines, would thsat bne true or false


That would be very true. I stopped playing the FOBT's a long time ago as i realised all my horse racing winnings were slowly but surely being given back via these horrible machines. However as a fruit machine player where skill can gain you an edge, well at least in the olden days when jackpots were paid out in tokens that had to be played back into them they were. Me and a few friends used to work for the holiday camps, Butlin's Pwllheli, Minehead et al and during the busy periods we topped up our meagre wages with gains from these machines, it was just too easy. Used to drive up and down the motorways visiting service stations too. However even though they are (fruities found in pubs and arcades not fobt's) are still designed around the same methods (game play and a beginning and end) they have become impossible to read given the advancements in technology the game play has become massively longer.

(game play and a beginning and end)


* GAME PLAY WITH A *

Ladbrokes yesterday putting out notices about scouser gang using laser pen in Peterboro area. Can the pay out or win be manipulated? Ah the dawn of the 80s and strimming wire....... as a schoolboy clocking up those 99 credits quickly paid for some Forest Hills, Pop Borg, Mulligans, Diamond Lyle & Scotts or Pringles and a HCC skiing winter warmer.

I think the win is predetermined centrally and that winning vouchers need to be scanned and correlated with what tallies with a central overview.

was in the bookies the other day, and a punter was having a go at the roulette,,  he was playing 2 machines he put a pound in each ,then said to me watch this,,  after choosing his numbers he pushed both machine buttons at same time,,  both machines fell on number 2,  then he repeated  the bet and both machines fell on 36..fixed   100%

when is the outcome of the minimum stakes expected to be revealed..  does anyone know

cardenden that is bollox, in order to generate a random number you need a seed.  This is a base number passed to the RNG as a parameter and from which a "random" number will be generated.   Getting a unique seed number can be difficult but computers are good a measuring time, to fractions of a second.   When you hit the start button, the time to is converted to a number and adjusted using other formula.   This is then the seed sent to the RNG.

Even the best RNG have been shown to not be 100% random, with perhaps some number appearing more and other appearing less.   Therefore the RNG for roulette will not produce a number from 0 to 36.   It will produce a number between 0 and say 100 trillion.    For every possible number it can generate in that 100 trillion range, each will have an assigned equivalent number of between 0 and 36.   This irons out any bias in the RNG.

I am not sure you mate has the skill to the start button at the same time to the milli second

chels week  .. they the  Government should remove all fobs from all bookies shops..none of this  min spin
..but they wont why they get a cut.. bit like  drink and cigs .. don't smoke don't drink 
if that was to happen and every one  stopped drinking and smoking the  economy  would collapse

take Scotland the biggest exporter in the World of  whisky  they would take a very big hit

Politician ..are full of hot air..... most of em drink and smoke

A laugh   zips in   the government
called to the bar
my  might I suggest 3 proposals
1  ban the fobs
2  ban  drinking and smoking
3  ban  prostitution  by the way that's the oldest profession in the world



4  how long would I be in goverment

wot you been smokin' today zip?

eqine flew,,  i can assure you its true,,,  i dont play these machines,  but i know what i saw ,,  maybe some on here that does play the fobs, can try it, and let us know,,  you have to press both machines at the same time ,, if you do , the result will be the same number on both machines..

I'd try that if I had longer arms.

the bookies i was in the guy was able to reach the start button on both machines

I've seen some players able to call the number it will land on whilst the ball is still spinning with
spookily regular precision.   "ffs a bastering 8 again"  couple seconds later it lands on number 8 right enough

Fk knows how they know but they do

james , some guys know as soon as the ball starts where its gonna land,,  some of them are never wrong

And they still carry on playing the things?

Based on the random number generated, the game will initiate a video sequence for that given number.   So it is highly likely after regular use, players recognise the video sequence and can call the outcome.   This does not mean the game is biased against the better.

Mar 9, 2018 -- 3:18PM, equine flew wrote:

Based on the random number generated, the game will initiate a video sequence for that given number.

your heads up your as

Fair point

Trust me there is nothing random about these machines no matter how many explanations you guys come up with.

They are addictive due to the speed of the machines that's what causes the rush and as i've said no skill involved so it captivates certain people.

skygreenzone

Point 1 - Incorrect
Point 2 - Correct

@ 97.3% payout coupled with the speed of play, why would they have to be anything but random?

Then how to they manage to make the bookies billions of pounds profit,not millions.Why don't they say how much is wagered and how much is paid out then we would all know the truth shouldn't be hard this day and age.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.

So a 2.7 edge can produce that much profit very much doubt it.

2.7 is massive, just think how quickly your funds disappear at £100 a spin

Do not forget the ratio of a win is also dependent upon the cumulative takings of all the fobt in the company eg ladcrooks/ok koral (at least 4000 in total), and not one specific shop. For instance, a player could be losing zillions in shop 'A' and if the cumulative takings have not been reached for a payout that the player will not win even if on a long losing run at £100 per 20 seconds.

The most prudent advice is...leave fobt well alone. It can seriously damage your health and wealth due to his addictive powers.

Hi ya all

Just seen one of the 99.99 per centers

He was trying to boot the ball into the number he wanted

Do not forget the ratio of a win is also dependent upon the cumulative takings of all the fobt in the company eg ladcrooks/ok koral (at least 4000 in total), and not one specific shop. For instance, a player could be losing zillions in shop 'A' and if the cumulative takings have not been reached for a payout that the player will not win even if on a long losing run at £100 per 20 seconds.

what's happend to you impossible123.

can't believe you're writing such rubbish.

^^JML, expand? Everyone here could be enlightened esp so if you are in the industry and directly fobt involved. Otherwise.....

likewise you'll have some evidence to back up this statement

For instance, a player could be losing zillions in shop 'A' and if the cumulative takings have not been reached for a payout that the player will not win even if on a long losing run at £100 per 20 seconds.

if you have no evidence why say it?

this is what you said wednesday

The payout ratio of fobt is also fixed but can be altered (if necessary). However, the payout on the fobt is governed by the "hopper" effect eg if the hopper is full then there is a more likelihood of a payout in the immediate future and the lucky player will win at the expense of the previous player/s who'd unknowingly topped up the hopper with their money. However, if the hopper is empty eg the machine had just paid-out the hopper will need to be topped-up (by an unlucky player) before a payout can happen again. And this could be some considerable time because the ratio of the overall payout is also governed by the overall takings eg if the overall taking is only 1/3 of target ie the ratio has not been reached then no payout in the immediate future until it has.

Because of the number of machines in the bookies the bookies can be assured they will always win given the fixed payout ratio; hopper effect; limited funds of any player to play till hopper effect is payout positive; ratio of overall payout to overall taking eg on a quiet day a lower number of payouts.

No ifs,buts or maybe this is the way it was, but only about an hour later you had to concede that it was nonsense.

Judging by what was said there gonna be a £50 bet limit so horseracing can get its pick what a shock.

£50 quid  it should be a lot less   say what  a punter can get on a horse with  any bookie

Should be the same for horseracing they should have to accept £50 bets only fair.

50 quid a spin on the fobs they have  no risk..
50 quid on a horse they have a risk...

I don't think what he said changes anything,he is a politician after all.

My money is firmly on £2 but perhaps £20 and one spin per minute would be better.