again the same old owners win the derbt 4 x in arow FFS FFS FFS

Would imagine godolphin would love to know their secret

brings U down to earth.............

out of interest did they buy Australia
and for how much?If they did I wonder
if the Godolphin buyers were there.

Definately went through the sales ring

Sure it was around £500k

they showed the auction earlier before the race, 525k guineas

Cheers Elise, I suppose both sides have purchased their fair share of dross but whoever buys godolphins yearlings arent in the same league as Coolmore imo

coolmore are everything godolphin aren't.  man city playing Fleetwood in my eyes. too many wise heads compared to sheik mohammed and his hangers on

do Godolphin have a policy not to buy horses
directly linked to the Coolmore breeding operation?

thought they had stopped that nonsense now

If they have they maybe want a rethink

I might be wrong but I thought that was
the case,might have read it somewhere.
Someone like Onlooker may know.

You can understand why they might but with the stallions Coolmore have at the moment it cant be the correct policy

ive never seen them with a galileo or a montjeu thats for sure

with their policy of buy good 2yrolds,
alway wondered why they did'nt try to buy
Kingston Hill.Honestly never knew he was
owned by Smith's son.

people who have made their own way in the world are always going to be more savy than the oil rich sheiks imho godolphin have lost the plot in so many ways in recent seasons

They have tried everything, the Loder experiment worked for a while, im sure many of the owners they have purchased are eternally grateful they did

Have purchased off

More money than sense JW

its a shame dealer as I feel as punters we all lose

I suppose you could argue where would we be without them

Remember Sangster was the first to take them on

Used to bid up and then opt out leaving them to pay way over the odds for yearlings

well they did purchase new approach who is by Galileo

think they bought last seasons Horris Hill
winner,name I can't recall,paid a good few
quid,sure it died of colic not long after.

agree with that and just hope they can come back. sheik mo isn't the all seeing master he thinks he is inmho and needs a radical rethink

Correct - CheltenhamRoar - re: New Approach.

the dealer posted ...

the dealer     07 Jun 14 21:05 

Would imagine godolphin would love to know their secret
----------

There is - NO 'Secret'

Coolmore have Galileo  - Godolphin do, or rather, had NOT.

So - they tried to establish their own 'Galileo' - through the back door, as it were, by 'getting into bed' with Bolger - via New Approach and TEOFILIO - who are both sired by GALILEO.

penzance is also correct in saying that - Godolphin embargoed buying any offspring of Coolmore Stallions - But, eventually relented somewhat I, also, seem to remember, as penzance does - but without some research I cannot post names 'off the top of my head'.

It is a Hobby for the Sheik.
It is a business for Coolmore.

I had the good fortune to come across graham bradley's book 'the wayward lad' last year
Old Brad may be a bit of a rogue, to put it mildly, but he knows blood stock.
One bit in the book told of how he went down to Manton in the 80s to visit his old governor michael dickinson
Dickinson of course was an all conquering national hunt trainer who had been trusted by robert sangster to train future derby winners
Bradley claims to have noticed straight away the raw boned nature of Dickinsons 2yos and compared them unfavourably to those that the arabs were racing
Dickinson didnt manage to work the oracle and sheikh mo and the boys went on to dominate the 80s and the 90s. Their breeding was based on speed rather than stamina. They cleaned up.
The point being
Swings and roundabouts
Lets not forget Cape cross sired Sea The Stars and CX is a darley sire is he not?

Onlooker..... for me the Coolmore boys leave Godolphin standing with regards to purchases from the sales ring, todays winner being an example

Yes, dealer - very true - and especially with today's winner, too.

What I ought to have added was that they can send a lot of their OWN MARES to Galileo, and they can then keep the offspring, at least those that they favour, as opposed to sending them through the Sales Ring.

the thread has quickly turned into coolmore v godolphin   ...yawn ,but the title is same old owners winning derby again .

of course coolmore are fixated with the Derby ,but never mind godolphin what about all the Uk based owners breeders and trainers leaving the Arabs aside ,absolutely nowhere on the map.

How any horses did coolmore breed or buy to get this one ?  or does that not matter ?

people are too quick to offer up godolphin  but they are not obsessional about the race and never really have been ,as a breeding operation its still at least 100 yrs too early to judge .What about all the others ?

including the others in IRE

Godolphin have structured their approach in the mould of coolmore in the last 7 or 8 years.

They are semi commercial supporting their stallions and in Dubawi , Shamardal and New approach they have serious contenders to coolmores big guns.

Sheikh refuses to buy coolmore sired stock so he wouldnt have even looked at Australia

What you have to remember though is look how many horses Sheikh mo has year on year...hundreds and hundreds plenty bred for the Derby...yet how many line up each year with a serious chance??? very very few.

Coolmore however operate on a smaller scale, they base the entire operation around the Derby and they get their due rewards (recently)  they went years themselves without wining it remember.

If the the sheikh would solely outline a way to bread New approach with the right mares he could get plenty of derby types.

Fact remains Sheikh is more interested in Dubai and pulls his string apart come the end of each year.

Itll change.  Godolphin will have their time in the Derby very soon

He did give one to his wife in Authorised, would be good for the game imo if they did win one

don't think she owned that,thoought 2
blokes owned it?

I thought Sheikh Mo spat the dummy when Coolmore didn't embrace his Dubai World Cup meeting and didn't always send the best ones over for it.

The Derby is very important to Sheikh Mo/Godolphin and he was trying to win it for years with a horse that genuinely was his own, even to the extent that he almost for want of a better expression tried to hijack the wins of Lammtarra and New Approach.

Eventually due to the poor results of Darley's breeding operation once transferred onto the course where they really should have has more success with the stallions and broodmares they have had, they had to bite the bullet and try to get in with the Coolmore bloodlines via horses like Authorized, New Approach and several other Bolger owned horses as already mentioned.

I don't really see why Coolmore should be crabbed for doing the job better than others and they also have a tie in with some of Khalid Abdullah's broodmares too, producing none other than Frankel between them from a Coolmore sire and a Juddmonte dam.

On a side issue, when Michael Dickinson was at Manton for Robert Sangster, the vast majority of the horses were 2YOs and was bound to take time to show anything but Sangster was too impatient.

My apologies Penzance, one too many ciders and a 52 year old brain

Lammtarra was  godolphins ,he had 1-2 with tamuri running second in his own silks .

new approach ran in his wifes colours as well

I think godolphin got too caught up in Monsun... they thought that was gonna be their way into the derby.

Hasnt worked out...they bought Shirocco and Manduro and threw everything at them and it simply just didnt work.

I still say its the way they base their racing calendar and with the second yard opened a couple of years now they are gonna seriously have to keep their Derby contenders at home to slog out the british winter.

You cant give Sheikh mo New approach Derby.

Itll change.

But lets reiterate ...coolmore have done an amazing job...simply amazing...such talented breeders and amazing buyers.  Hats off

soz iam_mazed66    i am a bit slow there ,dont forget coolmore are not slow in "hijacking" either ,plenty frenchies been recruited by them means . montjue for one but just a small share and hurricane run another just to name two

That's why I said for want of a better expression he "hijacked" the Derby wins of Lammtarra and New Approach as originally Lammtarra was trained by Alex Scott until he was killed and originally owned by Saeed Maktoum Al Maktoum and New Approach was bought for Princess Haya.

aye but that was their stallions... sheikh just nailed Authorized (montjeu) and  Teofilo/New approach(Galileo) blatantly !

Wouldnt see coolmore snapping up a sharmy or a dubawi

and what about barracouda and first gold theres another two

is the $16m  coolmore paid for Green Monkey after outbidding the sheikh still a record ?

I suppose what I mean by hijacked breadnbutter is not just that the horses might have been bought from elsewhere (even though Lammtarra wasn't) but neither Lammtarra nor New Approach were officially or really owned by Shiekh Mo but he got in on the act once they one and often leads up horses after they win when he's not even the named owner, which was the point I was making regarding how important Sheikh Mo considered and wanted to win the Derby.

Coolmore might well buy from outside yards during a horse's career but once they do so it tends to be as the new owners of the horse and generally runs in their own colours or a variations of them anyway.

officially Lammtarra was entered in the derby by godolphin ,and that was the first stage ,i know because i remember looking through all the entries and they only had ONE

SORRY ,meant at the first scratching stage .

its late

anyway the fred is about how boring is the derby now

Yeah it might have come under Godolphin's umbrella when that arm of Shiekh Mo's racing interests was in its infancy and was trained by SBS but was ridden by Walter Swinburn and ran in ran green colours so not the Godolphin blue, and he had other runners in his maroon and white silks in the race so there's some uncertainty over it all really but Lamtarra was definitely originally (if not continuously) owned by another Maktoum family member.

Several horses have also been switched back and forth from one Maktoum set of silks to Godpolphin's blue too.

His brother who died in 1990 (sheihk maktoum al maktoum) his stud Gainsborough bred the horse and it passed to his son and ran in his colours under the godolphin banner after A.SCOT was murdered .At that time the blue of godolphin was not on the radar and they ran in brown and also some other colours i think .But the horse was in his family before ,coolmore run in plenty colours as well so dont really see your problem tbh .

Did Saddlers Wells go through the sales ring

Saddler's Wells was foaled in America - so it follows that Vincent, or Sangster, bought him at Keeneland,

godolphin problems start way deeper then their stalions.
An organisation is built top to bottom. sadly they have no structure, they are run on deceit and back stabbing, the way they are treating their retained jockeys is without any class. Shame really.
So to reply to thread... no money cant buy success. A well run organization, built on hard work and trust...As well as money can get success

onlooker, shocked to see you spell Sadlers with a double d...! From memory think the horse was bred by Sangster's Swettenham stud in Kentucky and sent to VOB to train.

sorry that was my spell checker that brought the  extra D to the fred

Yes they did buy New Approach - but they still didn't break their policy of NOT buying Coolmore yearlings at auction - it was a pvt purchase from Jim Bolger ... obv an admission they are completely wrong, without wanting to admit it ..

Jim Bolger bought New Approach as a yearling ... and sold to Princess Haya at Ascot, if I remember

Coolmore and Godolphin are probably both helped by the HH The Aga Khan having thrown his toys out of British racing's pram a few years ago.

It will be interesting to see if Sheikh Hamdan's renaissance continues.

breadnbutter 08 Jun 14 01:23 
His brother who died in 1990 (sheihk maktoum al maktoum) his stud Gainsborough bred the horse and it passed to his son and ran in his colours under the godolphin banner after A.SCOT was murdered .At that time the blue of godolphin was not on the radar and they ran in brown and also some other colours i think .But the horse was in his family before.

coolmore run in plenty colours as well so dont really see your problem tbh.

I wasn't really aware that I had a problem to be honest if that was meant for me.

All I'm saying is that various sources have Lammtarra listed as being owned by Saeed Maktoum Al Maktoum and others have it as Godolphin for the very reasons you outline above but there was obviously some uncertainty due to the unusual circumstances, such as the owner's and trainer's deaths. The Racing Post for instance have the owner listed as Saeed Maktoum Al Maktoum despite them also having it listed later as being trained by Godolphin's trainer Saeed bin Suroor.

Balanchine ran 2nd in the 1994 1000gns in the final days of April under the ownership of Maktoum Al Maktoum and in his colours too and then won the Oaks also in his colours in the opening few days of June the same year, but she's listed in places for the Oaks as being Godolphin owned and Lammtarra was a full year after that, so there was clearly some ambiguity in it all during Godolphin's infancy. All of the Maktoums including Sheikh Mo were still having horses running in their individual colours and ownership too at the time, with some same horses running in both individual colours/ownership and Godpolphin's, which it's just a bit strange considering Godolphin started in 1992 and Lammtarra's Derby win was 3 years later.

Coolmore's horses are joint owned with each owners having their own set of colours and they are individually named when listed as joint owners and will run in the personal colours of one of those owners, as opposed to being listed as one owner but collectively as Godpolphin is so it's not quite the same thing.