Love these threads.

When I first got hooked on racing I remember my grandad telling me in reverential tones about "himself".

He spoke about him as a wonder horse but at age 8/9 I never understood his achievements.

When he died he left me his early edition Arkle book by Ivor Herbert and I must have read it hundreds of times since.

His achievements are staggering and will never be equalled imo.

When a horse gets a letter simply addressed Arkle , Ireland you know you are dealing with something special.

Always struggle to understand why there is always a steady stream of posts either cribbing or questioning Arkle's achievements, maybe it is just the case that his performances were mostly so breathtaking that people who did not have the pleasure to see him race live, simply cannot accept that one animal could be so far superior to all others.

That is not to say that Flyingbolt should be overlooked, he was just as magnificent albeit he did not and never does seem to receive the plaudits that Arkle does.

Two outstanding animals, the like of which we are unlikely to ever have the privilege of seeing again, more so because of the way horses careers are mapped out for them these days.

Mill House then went on and won the Whitbread with 11st 10lb I think.

They even changed the weights for the KG because of Arkle - just for one year.

In '65, only 3 turned up to face him, and only one of those was given any chance whatsoever of beating him, and that was the blazing 2 miler Dunkirk, who fell and died a mile from home (with Arkle upsides at the time).

As a consequence, they decided on a system of penalties for the '66 KG in order to encourage other trainers to run their best horses against him. A horse who had won a race worth £5000 since 1964 (which, basically, meant Arkle), had a 21 lbs penalty, meaning he carried 12-7.

The next in the weights was Mill House on 11-10, because he had 10 lbs worth of penalties, then Woodland Venture on 11-7 (who won the Gold Cup in '67), down to Dormant on 11-0. As it happened, Mill House pulled a muscle on Christmas morning, and didn't run; and in the race itself, Arkle cracked a pedal bone, and was overhauled close home by Dormant (who he'd beaten by 2 fences the year before), and never ran again.

The betting forecast in the Kempton Park race card was:-
1/7 Arkle; 7/1 Mill House; 100-6 Woodland Venture and Dormant

(the card was printed before Mill House was withdrawn).

In the '65 KG, the betting was:-

1/7 Arkle; 7/1 Dunkirk; 25 Dormant; 100 Arctic Ocean.

When Dunkirk fell, commentator Peter O'Sullevan said "Arkle only has to jump now, he's the only one still running". In fact the other 2 were still going, but were 2 fences behind, and O'Sullevan corrected himself when he realised they were still going.

The distances were 'Distance; Distance'.

After crossing the line, Arkle kept galloping round the top bend, and down the back straight. Taaffe was trying to pull him up, and had to zig-zag round the first 2 fences down the back straight before getting Arkle down to a walk (and all that was after chasing and catching Dunkirk for the first 2 miles, and being ridden up the run-in to put in a good show for the crowd).

...and if you want an idea of Dunkirk's level of form at 2 miles...

In 1965, he won the Champion Chase. In the November, he won the Mackeson Gold Cup (now Paddy Power), then run over 2 miles, carrying 12-7 (setting a weight record for the race that can never now be broken) - the only horse who was within 2 stone of him in the handicap was Irish Imp on 11-12 - and he had started favourite for the '64 Champion Chase (but fell), and hadn't run since, coming into the Mackeson with form figures of 1111F/. Everything else that ran in the race was handicapped to carry 10-7 or less, except that The O'Malley had a 10 lb penalty which brought him up to 11-2 - he came in with form figures of 111-011.

That would have been when Flyingbolt won the Champion Chase. Understandable that Dreaper never mind the owner would have not wanted to put the two together. Take out Flyingbolt and Arkle would have walked it.

Money goes to money onlooker, the Duchess had her fair share and more, as well as good fortune when it came to horses.

Last Suspect was the horse that nobody saw coming in the 1985 Grand National, given that he only got there due to the insistent begging of his jockey Hywel Davies, as his owner, the Duchess of Westminister didn’t actually initially want him (or any of her horses, including the great Arkle) to run in the National.

The brown gelding was moody, unreliable, disinterested and was known for pulling himself up in chases – which he demonstrated beautifully in his Warwick prep-race for the Grand National. Following this unruly performance both his owner and his trainer Tim Forster decided there and then that he should be withdrawn from the National.

Davies however had other ideas – he himself had been at death’s door in a crashing fall months earlier, and truly believed that the horse could win – he had never fallen in a race, had never unseated a jockey, and had great stamina, so on trying to convince Forster and failing, he then decided to telephone the Duchess herself.

Forster, though having already won the National twice with Well To Do and Ben Nevis and went on to receive an OBE in the 1999 New Year’s Honours List, was well-known for his pessimism, and although his owner may have conceded defeat to Davies, did not share any enthusiasm for Last Suspect’s National success.

Last Suspect was retired following his National victory, but his owner changed her mind, and he went back to Aintree.
He was never in contention in the race and it seemed that he had returned to his previous form of being reluctant to race, and was pulled up in the second circuit when he started labouring. This retirement was definitely his last!

arkle brilliant though.

It's strange how we are always asking if indeed Arkle was the best. That is probably because he was. I say probably to allow those who may question his status their right to do so. I really want to say DEFINITELY the best. I saw him destroy top class horses who were in receipt of enormous weight concessions. To watch him live was nothing short of a breathtaking experience. I have never had that experience since. Some magnificent performances from great stars yes. Never anything to match though.

Yes, weights went down to 9-7.

Here's the finishing order, with weights, for the 1965 Whitbread:-

1. Arkle 8-12-7
2. Brasher 9-10-0 (7ex)
3. Willow King 10-9-7
4. Rough Tweed 11-9-7
5. Persian Signal 8-9-7
6. Sign Post 9-9-10 (3oh)
7. Over Court 9-10-0 (7ex)

SP; 4/9 Arkle; 5 Rough Tweed; 8 Brasher; 25 Over Court, Willow King, Persian Signal; 33 Sign Post

Distances: 5, 20, 5, 8, 20



Both Flyinghbolt and Arkle were entered for the 1966 Irish Grand National. Arkle was set to give Flyingbolt 4 lbs. In the event, Arkle didn't run in it, so it was left to Flyingbolt to give 3 stone to his rivals, which he did. Perhaps he was uplifted a couple of pounds for that, leading to the 2 lbs diff in their ratings. (Timeform published NH ratings from the early 60s, in their Black Book).

I don't know if you read my earlier posts Ramruna but Arkle earned his rating on the racecourse along with every other horse including Mill House.
That is not what happens today. Horses who cannot win off their rating move into Group races and end up with a higher rating which is mad. If a horse cannot win off his rating in handicaps how can he be rated higher? There are any number of examples like Somersby etc. How can a horse be rated 170 yet fail to win or struggle to win off 155? It's gravy for the ratings guys but meaningless and unprovable, unlike in Arkle and Dessie's day.

@brigust1 -- yes, saw your post but I was asking where the 212 rating was first published.

@ged --- where were these season ratings published? Chasers & Hurdlers would not exist for another 10 years.

one thing that needs to be taken into account is that, unlike today, most of the opposition were not bred for speed.

most chasers were not fast enough to get near a racecourse until they had developed into big heavy plodders suitable for long distance chases.
they were "stores" who were put away until they were 7, 8 or 9 when they were considered ready to race. 

although this shouldn't detract from arkle's achievements, it does put into perspective why fast horses like arkle and flyingbolt were so far ahead of these slow stayers both in ratings and in races.

Outpost - your post doesn't really square with the facts.

Golden Miller was 5yo when he won his first Gold Cup.

6yo's won the Gold Cup in 1947 (Fortina), 1952 (Mont Tremblant) and 1963 (Mill House).

The only 6yo to win the race since then is Long Run.

In fact Tom Dreaper probably took his time with horses more than any British trainer of the time, so how come he had so much success in the 2 mile Champion Chase (winning it 6 times between 1960 and 1970) - and dominated steeplechasing with the likes of, not just Arkle and Flyingbolt, - but Prince Regent, Fortria, Straight Fort, Fort Leney, and others).

Fulke Walwyn, renowned as a trainer of staying chasers, had plenty of success with Sempervivum as a 2-mile hurdler (who was flat bred and ran in the St Leger).

Cottage Rake, who won the Gold Cup 3 times from 1948-50, was trained for speed like all Vincent O'Brien's horses - and was renowned for his finished burst, and won the Irish Nov hcap at 12f.

Outpost to suggest these horses were plodders is silly. There were only two possibilities at the time, flat or jumping. Two clearly defined seasons and no AW or AW training grounds.  If you had a jumping bred horse he couldn't run over the jumps until he was 4 anyway so they brought them along slowly. The jumps were stiffer as well so strength was important as well as speed. Don't forget Mill House won the Gold Cup when he was 6 and Long Run is the only horse since to do that. Arkle won it when he was 7. They were not plodders or slow by any means.

Isnt the other peak Ben Stack?