I would have thought those from an older generation would have the edge having seen far more. I remember with surprise my father telling me Arkle was a much better horse than Golden Miller.

True enough, Cork. But as you say we will never really be able to prove these things. Just irritating when every year we decide we have the greatest of all time.

keep hearing how the fly beats dross in Ireland yet not one English horse will dare cross the sea to challange him in these egg and spoon races?

Looking at thousand stars form alone in the UK AND France shows u how good the fly is as that horse, with lines through oscar whisky, and zarkandar.

The horse is absolutely brilliant.

cheers

Not one mention of Persian War in this thread, despite winning 3 CH's on the trot (and 2nd in his attempt at a 4th, when beaten only by the brilliant young Bula, who won his first 13 hurdle races, including a Supreme Novices, a Champion hurdle, and a valuable handicap carrying 12-7), and won the Schweppes Trophy as a 5yo carrying 11-13 (still a record) from a field of 32 runners - and this despite going through the hands of 4 different trainers, including a spell at Chantilly when there was swamp fever here, and cracking a femur, and suffering concession once when he fell, and knocking his teeth out on another occasion.

Comedy Of Errors twice won the Irish Sweeps hurdle (now the Pierse) when it was the most valuable hurdle race in GB and Ire, and so attracted most of the top hurdlers in GB and Ire, twice, carrying 12-0 both times, it being a handicap. I don't think any other winner has carried more than 11-8.

Hattons Grace won both the Irish Lincoln (at a mile) and Irish Cesarewitch in the same year that he won the first of his 3 CH's.

But surely Arkle they can't all be spread evenly down the years and you will have periods throwing up clusters of more than the usual number of very top class animals such as on the Flat in Europe from 1970-72, mid 80's and the around 2000, the Flat in the USA from 1973-79, and with the chasers we had one from 1981- 1984 and a recent vintage period peaking around 5 years ago, to name two.

One thing that did differ in the 70's was that the Champion Hurdle was around 1 furlong longer up until 1980. They use to keep on passing the stand and race around the loop at the top.This no doubt helped Sea Pigeon when he finally avenged two previous defeats by Monksfield.

This of course does not have any bearing on whether it was as vintage an era as hailed - in fact it makes comparisons more difficult. However, as for horses always beating one another they did appear far more often and in Ireland there was not the programme of non-handicaps for a prospective champion hurdler to take in. In fact Monksfield often ran in handicaps carrying 12 st.

I do feel for sure though that the supports players in the 70's such as Bird's Nest, Dramatist, Kybo ect where better than the likes of Peddler's Cross, Countrywide Flame and Overturn.

Yep agreed, we never will know though I wish training had not evolved to the point where they get them so fit at home AND Champion Hurdle contenders had no option but to run in some handicaps.

Didnt Night Nurse clash with Comedy and Lanzarote very early on in the 75-76 season and beat them quite easily??

agree with Verbo about making a horses ability easier when they did try Handicaps

Not to be compared with any other, as I stated earlier comparisons are futile, but as he hasn't been mentioned so far, triple winning Sir Ken should not be omitted.

Istabraq was better than Hurricane Fly and Big Bucks has an excellent record also. Harchibald my arrse

Whats the point of asking what did istabraq beat?

The horse almost all of his races inc 3 champion hurdles!

Find a new sport imo

ilikewavingatbuses 29 Dec 13 19:55 
keep hearing how the fly beats dross in Ireland yet not one English horse will dare cross the sea to challange him in these egg and spoon races?

Not everyone thinks those race were against dross (although some can be a bit uncompetitive) but a few English horses have gone over and faced Hurricane Fly in Ireland and there probably would be more but for the timing of the races falling when they do and clashing with or being too close to key English races and meetings.

Peaty Sandy always

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I think trying to compare race times from previous years for the champion hurdle would be like platting sawdust bearing in mind changes in course configuration (i think 1981) they stopped going round the top bend changes in drainage rail configuration etc. Plus the fact on the opening(champion) day of the festival you just couldnt trust the going description given by the COC.

Also, regarding times - hurdles and fences used to be vertical - they stood upright. These days they are typically laid down at around 45 degrees, away from the horses, making them much easier to jump at racing speed without losing momentum. (The Canal Turn 'fence' at Aintree was laid down at about 70 degrees to the vertical at the Becher meeting this season - it's only 1 step away from being flat on the ground).

I think he was a good one (though I don't say that from my own visual memory, as I was too young then to notice such things), but Major Rose was a favourite of mine at the time, and Persian War beat him into 2nd in one of his CH wins, and I remember the commentator saying that Persian War was a 'more natural' jumper of a hurdle than his regular rival. Another bit of evidence would be that when he ran on the flat at Newbury (whilst he was the reigning Champion Hurdler), he ran in a handicap carrying about 7-10, with star apprentice P Eddery claiming 3, went off fav, and got stuffed, suggesting he needed the hurdles to shine. He was considered best on proper soft ground.

Mention should also be made of Trespasser. He was around in the early 1920s, before the Champion Hurdle existed. Then, by far the most important race over hurdles was the Imperial Cup at Sandown, a handicap. Trespasser won it 3 years in succession - as a 4yo carrying 12-0, and as a 5 and 6yo carrying 12-7 both times. He only had 6 races over hurdles, and won them all, including the County Hurdle, also as a 4yo, carrying 11-9.

The one I will always wonder about in terms of potential is Browne's Gazette. Prior to the farce in the Champion Hurdle he looked like the best hurdler by some margin .

Birds Nest A Turnell, always on the bridle, sometimes never found a lot on the run in

Thanks ged, I backed Major Rose when he won the Cesarewitch. I have just been reading up on Persian War and was reminded of his crazy owner. After what that horse was put through it's a wonder he won 1 champion Hurdle let alone 3.