Elusive and Moonlight to boost the Frankel form or will a 3yo step up?

Fascinating race.
You make a good point about 'Kate's chances possibly being compromised by the pacemakers.
However,at the price,it might be worth a dabble in case the pacemakers go TOO fast and she gets first run.
Have to agree that Moon' is too short a price for this especially at 8f.
The question for me about Dawn is is this one race too many this season?
Again the price is low (Although at the moment he's 12.0 on the PMU).
Being one who loves to play longshots,I can't help wondering why Hannon sends Olympic there and without Hughes.
Maybe the owners wanted it. Maybe,Toronado having got the measure of Dawn,he feels Olympic is up to this.Maybe the Jock's Champs.is more important for Hughes.
You could be right about the 3yo crop but I'll take a stab at the price.Also he's 3 for 3 after a layoff.
I'll be putting 'Cloud and Intello on top of my 'shots in forecasts.

Frankie retained to ride Olympic Glory, Hughsey had no choice in the matter! Olympic EW for me and laying Intello.

No bother, belter of a race, can't wait

Don't you think New Approach maybe has too many years on the clock?

frankel

The only reason Brigust is seething with rage is because he was sucked into the Cirrus des Aigles form with Frankel. Moonlight Cloud just proved the Excelebration for is rubbish and he shouldn't have won last year's race. (I'm glad he did mind because he was my banker). Soveriegn Debt and Aljamaaher have franked the Farrh Lockinge form as well. Hey ho. Keep digging Layboy.

Moonlight Cloud proved no such thing brigust1 but I love the way you don't mind switching views whenever it suits just to knock Frankel to big up BG as the Americans say.

I could have sworn it was you knocking Excelebration's and Moonlight Cloud's runs in the Breeders' Cup Mile and when I pointed out regarding MC that she was very badly drawn that day and was basically beaten before the race started you rubbished that. Now there's a bit of her form that suits your argument she's a superstar again!

Yes she was a bit unlucky in running in this last year but that doesn't mean she would have won and using one horse only to measure that is daft when there are so many other factors involved, and as for Farhh's from in the Lockinge well I've made this same point to you on a number of occasions in racing but if Farhh just edged the likes of Sovereign Debt and Aljamaaher in the race then you might actually have a point, but he beat them as he liked and easily by 4L when FTO and running after an 8 month break from two race fit rivals. As for what those horses did after the Lockinge, Sovereign Debt ran well in the Gr1 QA and was narrowly beaten in a Gr2 and in between was well beaten when dropping back to a Gr1 6f race so s vslid reason there. Aljamaaher was narrowly beaten in that same QA and then won a Gr2 but are you going to do a bit more form manipulation just because those runs don't fit in with your agenda and only concentrate on todays's run only?

Also doesn't Farhh have some closely tied in form with Moonlight Cloud or did you not like that taste of that particular cherry?

Frankel is a great racehorse. You may think he is the greatest ever well bully for you and your mates. Don't confuse me with someone who gives a cr@p. 

In which case, it's remarkable just how many hours you have spent on here arguing to the contrary.

Olympic Glory unlucky today,but full credit too moonlight Cloud,This got no bearing on the Frankel form mind,the 3yrld this year look a bit better than last years,but they are beating each other for various reasons.

Doubt Intello will even run. He looks ideal for the Champion Stakes to me.

Flintshire.

LB - I don't think Al Kazeem is THAT good to scare the opposition away...a fit Orfevre is definitely the one to beat in my view.

FB - as you say, Intello probably would be more suited to the Champion Stakes but I don't see why he wouldn't take his chance in the Arc...I reckon his owners would prefer to stay at home and use Ascot as plan 'B' instead.

So let me see if I can follow this brigust1, you are telling me to "go and get a life" because I am posting my views on a racing forum and your way of telling me to do so is er, via posting it on a racing forum. Hmmmm!

Well maybe it's because I don't let the Racing Post form my opinions for me that I was well aware that the runs of those horses in the BC had genuine excuses. Excelebration hated the firm ground and was squeezed up causing him to lose his position at a crucial time and I've already said Moonlight Cloud was beaten by the draw, so any sensible punter would dismiss those runs and go by what they have done in other runs, which funnily enough is what you are doing now with MC because it suits your agenda. Or shall we judge Brigadier Gerard on his defeat in the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup and ignore everything else? And besides, since when has 2L counted as being "stuffed?"

I agree with the RP that MC was unlucky in the race but that's not the same as them saying she would have won it (assuming that's actually what they claimed) which is what you have alluded to and is why I'm taking issue with you on that matter and not the RP, although if you are going to use the RP to form your opinions and rehash them on here then people are still going to take issue with you anyway.

Just for the record, I've never actually said Frankel was the greatest horse ever, I just find double standards and hypocrisy amusing at times when you cherry pick form as and when it suits you to knock Frankel due to you love of BG, even if that form cherry picking gets you in such a mess that you barely know if you are knocking or boosting the form anyway. You knock MC after the BC so as to knock Excelebration (even though he's beaten her twice) and by association knock Frankel, yet praise her today to again knock Excelebration and again by association Frankel and then praise her and knock Excelebration for their runs in this race last season. You then go on to knock Aljamaaher via a from link through Farhh, so again knocking Frankel by association but totally overlooked the fact that Moonlight Cloud and Farhh were only separated by head in the Prix du Moulin last season.

Maybe you can explain why that head difference has you talking up MC but doing down Farhh?

You right these books Ima then seem surprised when someone answers you. You bring up all these thoughts and then turn them around as if someone else did. You write book after book and it's all boll@x. You are  on other threads telling them they are wrong too.

You didn't say this and you didn't say that. Well what the f@ck are you saying? You write reams and reams you must be saying something? Mustn't you? You go round and round in circles and now you bring up the B&H. Do you ever read the drivel you write?

Go and get a life ffs man!

Oh look! Ima's plaything has arrived! What a surprise.

Not a bad days work with my 70% 30% stake split on the Moonlight & Kate. You saw the real Olympic Glory today too, the one that I smashed into LTO in the belief that he would carry that field. I don't think I ever been more disappointed in a horses run than his run that day. If he'd got up today one would have been very miffed indeed.

Ima you are clearly not an idiot.

I have spent some time in the past putting my reasons why I think Brigadier Gerard was a better horse than Frankel and I did it at a time when hype was at it's highest and this forum was blessed with some eloquent posters. I think I covered just about every avenue available truthfully and sensibly and without bias. That was nearly a year ago and as far as I am concerned nothing has changed in any way since.

In saying you are clearly not an idiot you will know that nothing that has happened since Frankel retired has enhanced his reputation while in fact many things have shown quite the opposite. Whether it is Exelebration's reputation being dented, Cirrus des Aigles failing to frank the form or even the form of Farhh in winning the Lockinge can be considered ground breaking or earth shattering. In fact all of these things are detrimental not enhancing.

So why don't we wait until something really memorable or notable happens before we go through this crazy rigmarole again?

My race is run. My points have been made and my confidence is high and even raised by recent events rather than diminished.

I respect that fact that you have your opinions but I'm sure you have had clear sight of my reasons and reasoning. If there are any particular areas where I believe Brigadier Gerard is better than Frankel that you want me to detail again for you I will be happy to do so but if there isn't why don't we just leave it at that, shall we?

Ima

Farhh beating Sovereign Debt by 4 lengths is not form enhancing. And Farhh has won FTO for all 3 seasons.

I cannot see how MC enhances Excelebration but even if you think they are similar you will have to go a long way to convince me that the two horses Excelebration beat in winning his races, namely Rio de la Plata and Cityscape, are top class. They are not. So no form enhancing there. And even you must admit MC looked possibly lucky today because had Frankie not decided to go inside of Dawn Approach he would have won. In my opinion. Olympic Glory may go on and prove how good he is we will have to wait and see on that one but through Casper Netscher and Elusive Kate Excelebration's form is falling apart.

St Nicholas Abbey winning both the Sheema Classic and Coronation were fully expected given the opposition ffs. It is a pity he never ran in the King George. That would have told us a lot more. But he was beaten by Farhh in the Juddmonte so it is Farhh's form that matters anyway.

I never rated CDA anyway. All those defeat's and his only Gr1 wins were a) possibly fortuitous in the Champion Stakes  b) possibly fortuitous in Meydan and c) against a non stayer in the Ganay. Not a record you would expect from the 2nd highest rated horse in the world unless the others are rubbish. So no enhancement from him so far.

You cannot just blanket things. If CDA comes out and wins it depends upon what he beats. Just like Excelebration. You can tak him up as much as you like but beating Rio de la Plata and Cityscape is not top class form. Anyway you write it. When the form students revue his form in the cold light of day and compare it with horses he is rated the same as they will immediately see it is wrong. Similarly with Farhh who cannot possibly justify his rating with the form he has shown. I hope he runs again because we need form lines like today.

So considering it is likely Moonlight Cloud would have beaten Excelebration in the Marois last year where does that put him with Olympic Glory? See what I mean.   

Now tell me which criteria I use when comparing Frankel with Brigadier Gerard that you disagree with.

How good is Olympic Glory to be compared so closely with Excelebration?

In his last run Olympic Glory was badly hampered so that cannot be considered.

In his 4 wins prior to that the horses that finished 2nd and 3rd behind him have run a total of 36 times since resulting in a single Group 3 win only. Does that enhance Moonlight Cloud and Farhh? Or Excelebration?

In the Coventry Stakes Olympic Glory finished 2nd to Dawn Approach and the 3rd horse home has run 4 times since and not won.

But did Olympic Glory run to form today or above it?

In the Coventry he was beaten half a length by Dawn Approach (who never ran his race today).

In the Sussex Stakes Dawn Approach beat Declaration of War by 2.5 lengths. Had Dawn Approach beaten Declaration of War 2.5 lengths today he would have finished about half a length in front of Olympic Glory just like he did in the Coventry Stakes.

Looks like he ran to form for me.

Farhh beating Sovereign Debt by 4L brigust1 isn't exactly form knocking either and by your own criteria you are always telling us to judge what the horses do after being (well) beaten by Frankel, so now when Farhh franks that form you want to knock that despite it being your own criteria for judging, yet I can't help but think what the case might have been if Farrh had been beaten. Since narrowly beating Farhh, Moonlight Cloud if you excuse her badly drawn run in the Breeders' Cup is unbeaten winning a Gr3 and a Gr1, which on several lines of form via Excelebration and Farhh put her well behind Frankel too, so is more indirect form franking there.

Whether Moonlight cCloud was lucky or not, would a nose the opposite way have made it a bad run and therefore devalued Frankel's form by association via Excelebration? This is another thing I've questioned you on before in that is only subsequent winning form able to frank any previous efforts? If Excelebration had struggled to beat horses like Rio De La Plata and Cityscape then you might have a point but he beat then convincingly including in the first example in not ideal conditions, on ground described as Very Soft by 1½L and beat Cityscape (a 4¼L Gr1 Dubai World Cup winner) by 1¼L on Good ground and 3L on Soft which suits both horses better. Cityscape was also beaten 4¼L by Wise Dan on unsuitable Firm ground and with Excelebration also beaten 2L by Wise Dan again on unsuitable Firm ground seems a very reliable form tie in. Add to that the fact Cityscape has generally run well in almost all of his recent races even including the Eclipse when tried at 10f, yet was last in Farhh's Lockinge on funnily enough, Good to Firm ground.

As for Farhh winning FTO in previous seasons, one was a maiden and the other two were handicaps so not exactly comparing like for like when winning a Gr1 by 4L as he liked after an 8 month break and coming back from injury against race fit rivals. There are a lot of key points there other than just saying he won, which is something you seem to be ignoring. 

Whether St Nic was expected to win his races this season or not, the point is he did and once again it's your criteria being used here and also once again you would have been the first to use any defeats to knock Frankel if you had the chance to. As for Farhh beating St Nic, well whilst true, you can more than reasonably use St Nic's later form to boost Frankel because once again not only has your criteria been what the 2nd and 3rd horses do afterwards, there was all of a nose between Farhh and St Nic in the Juddmonte despite St Nic having no winning form at 10f and being a far better horse at 12f, so to only use Farhh to boost form and not St Nic seems a bit disingenuous for the sake of a flared nostril difference.

We also don't really need to see Farhh run again anyway to weigh up his form lines as there are plenty there as it is. An unlucky in running 3rd to SYT in the Pow in his first Gr1 and first effort at 10f, a narrow defeat to Nathaniel in the Eclipse, a horse that was a Royal Ascot and almost dual KG winner, then two decent runs behind Frankel in Gr1s, a nose defeat in a Gr1 by Moonlight Cloud and she has more than Franked that form since and Farhh has himself with an effortless 4L Gr1 win in the Lockinge.

Dawn Approach ran his race today (or yesterday as it is now) but at this stage of his racing career he isn't a miler and needs to step up in trip being by a Derby winner. He probably wouldn't have beaten Toronado in the SJP but for his rival being hampered badly and was done for speed by that same horse in the Sussex Stakes, yet after the Derby run you can understand connections dropping him back in trip, even though he had no chance of staying 12f after the way things unfortunately panned out for him at Epsom.

Morning Brig.
Do you believe Moonlight  Cloud to be a superior miler to Excelebration?