Elusive and Moonlight to boost the Frankel form or will a 3yo step up?

Fascinating race.
You make a good point about 'Kate's chances possibly being compromised by the pacemakers.
However,at the price,it might be worth a dabble in case the pacemakers go TOO fast and she gets first run.
Have to agree that Moon' is too short a price for this especially at 8f.
The question for me about Dawn is is this one race too many this season?
Again the price is low (Although at the moment he's 12.0 on the PMU).
Being one who loves to play longshots,I can't help wondering why Hannon sends Olympic there and without Hughes.
Maybe the owners wanted it. Maybe,Toronado having got the measure of Dawn,he feels Olympic is up to this.Maybe the Jock's Champs.is more important for Hughes.
You could be right about the 3yo crop but I'll take a stab at the price.Also he's 3 for 3 after a layoff.
I'll be putting 'Cloud and Intello on top of my 'shots in forecasts.

Two good posts which would add value to the excellent existing fred on this race.
See below.

Frankie retained to ride Olympic Glory, Hughsey had no choice in the matter! Olympic EW for me and laying Intello.

Thanks Moss,for clearing that up.

No bother, belter of a race, can't wait

Sensational looking race! Burned my fingers badly on Olympic Glory LTO and I think even though you should always forgive a horse one bad run, on the balance of form I don't think he's good enough. Intello has looked a world beater on his last 2 starts and would surely be unbeaten with any sort of luck in running. His price is quite short for a horse that is more in the promising category rather than the proven, though. I'm not too worried about New Approach having another race so soon as he's as tough as nails and has a great fighting spirit. The problem is the price, its spot on at the moment. I like the 2 ladies in this race though. Elusive Kate probably has bit to find on form, but IMO she's improving all the time and her love of the course also makes me want to be with her at the prices. The biggest danger IMO is Moonlight Cloud. She has the best form in the book and looked sensational in her last 2 races. I'm not worried about the trip for her as she was running on strongly in this race (after being badly hampered) last year. She should also get the race run to suit and the price is fair value IMO.
I'll have to be with her too.

GL chaps.

Don't you think New Approach maybe has too many years on the clock?

Sounded a close race but I believe the Frankel/Black Caviar form has been franked yet again. Poor old Brigust will be seething with rage.

frankel

I think it's maybe stretching it a little to say this franked the Black Caviar form all things considered.

If anything it probably detracts from it in that a horse than needs a mile was still able to drop back in trip by 25% and still give her the fright of her life and the 40/1 3rd that day has yet to make the places in 7 subsequent races and was last seen beaten 9½L when 6th of 7 in a Conditions Stakes race at Donny when 15/8F!

The only reason Brigust is seething with rage is because he was sucked into the Cirrus des Aigles form with Frankel. Moonlight Cloud just proved the Excelebration for is rubbish and he shouldn't have won last year's race. (I'm glad he did mind because he was my banker). Soveriegn Debt and Aljamaaher have franked the Farrh Lockinge form as well. Hey ho. Keep digging Layboy.

Excelebration 2
Midnight Cloud 0

Seething

Moonlight Cloud proved no such thing brigust1 but I love the way you don't mind switching views whenever it suits just to knock Frankel to big up BG as the Americans say.

I could have sworn it was you knocking Excelebration's and Moonlight Cloud's runs in the Breeders' Cup Mile and when I pointed out regarding MC that she was very badly drawn that day and was basically beaten before the race started you rubbished that. Now there's a bit of her form that suits your argument she's a superstar again!

Yes she was a bit unlucky in running in this last year but that doesn't mean she would have won and using one horse only to measure that is daft when there are so many other factors involved, and as for Farhh's from in the Lockinge well I've made this same point to you on a number of occasions in racing but if Farhh just edged the likes of Sovereign Debt and Aljamaaher in the race then you might actually have a point, but he beat them as he liked and easily by 4L when FTO and running after an 8 month break from two race fit rivals. As for what those horses did after the Lockinge, Sovereign Debt ran well in the Gr1 QA and was narrowly beaten in a Gr2 and in between was well beaten when dropping back to a Gr1 6f race so s vslid reason there. Aljamaaher was narrowly beaten in that same QA and then won a Gr2 but are you going to do a bit more form manipulation just because those runs don't fit in with your agenda and only concentrate on todays's run only?

Also doesn't Farhh have some closely tied in form with Moonlight Cloud or did you not like that taste of that particular cherry?

Ima will you go and get a life please?

I may have knocked Moonlight Cloud's and Excelebration's runs in the Breeder's Cup. They were well beaten ffs. What am I supposed to do praise them? They got stuffed!!!!

And if you read the Racing Post it is they who stated quite clearly that Moonlight Cloud was unlucky not to win this last year. Take it up with them, not me!!!!

But even you cannot big up Aljamaaher, Sovereign Debt, Elusive Kate's or CDA's runs no matter how you try. So take my advice.

So go and get a life ffs.

Frankel is a great racehorse. You may think he is the greatest ever well bully for you and your mates. Don't confuse me with someone who gives a cr@p. 

If you truly believed Frankel was that good you wouldn't keep coming on here trying to prove it, would you?

Frankel is a great racehorse. You may think he is the greatest ever well bully for you and your mates. Don't confuse me with someone who gives a cr@p. 

In which case, it's remarkable just how many hours you have spent on here arguing to the contrary.

"Don't confuse me with someone who gives a cr@p"




Strange comment from someone who has spent a large proportion of his time in the last year arguing the t0ss...imo.

Olympic Glory unlucky today,but full credit too moonlight Cloud,This got no bearing on the Frankel form mind,the 3yrld this year look a bit better than last years,but they are beating each other for various reasons.

Looking forward to the Arc, I think Intello ran a great race today and I will be very interested in his price come Arc day but I ain't seen one to beat Al Kazeem yet.

Doubt Intello will even run. He looks ideal for the Champion Stakes to me.

Flintshire.

Not sure of the strengths of the Japs this year(not sure if they send one?) - (no homework done yet) but it is a very tricky year that is for sure,one or two late developers from last years 3yrlds? the 12f form looks questionable for the UK runners this year,so Al kazeem could be good enough,but even that form let down a little?

LB - I don't think Al Kazeem is THAT good to scare the opposition away...a fit Orfevre is definitely the one to beat in my view.

FB - as you say, Intello probably would be more suited to the Champion Stakes but I don't see why he wouldn't take his chance in the Arc...I reckon his owners would prefer to stay at home and use Ascot as plan 'B' instead.

Champion Stakes is a good shout for Intello, plenty of good racing to look forward to. Hot Snap is my horse to follow for the remainder of the flat campaign, she was just unlucky that 4 horses came down her outside in single file at a crucial stage in the Nassau and I will be a player against her own sex. Be lucky people, even you Brigust

So let me see if I can follow this brigust1, you are telling me to "go and get a life" because I am posting my views on a racing forum and your way of telling me to do so is er, via posting it on a racing forum. Hmmmm!

Well maybe it's because I don't let the Racing Post form my opinions for me that I was well aware that the runs of those horses in the BC had genuine excuses. Excelebration hated the firm ground and was squeezed up causing him to lose his position at a crucial time and I've already said Moonlight Cloud was beaten by the draw, so any sensible punter would dismiss those runs and go by what they have done in other runs, which funnily enough is what you are doing now with MC because it suits your agenda. Or shall we judge Brigadier Gerard on his defeat in the Benson & Hedges Gold Cup and ignore everything else? And besides, since when has 2L counted as being "stuffed?"

I agree with the RP that MC was unlucky in the race but that's not the same as them saying she would have won it (assuming that's actually what they claimed) which is what you have alluded to and is why I'm taking issue with you on that matter and not the RP, although if you are going to use the RP to form your opinions and rehash them on here then people are still going to take issue with you anyway.

Just for the record, I've never actually said Frankel was the greatest horse ever, I just find double standards and hypocrisy amusing at times when you cherry pick form as and when it suits you to knock Frankel due to you love of BG, even if that form cherry picking gets you in such a mess that you barely know if you are knocking or boosting the form anyway. You knock MC after the BC so as to knock Excelebration (even though he's beaten her twice) and by association knock Frankel, yet praise her today to again knock Excelebration and again by association Frankel and then praise her and knock Excelebration for their runs in this race last season. You then go on to knock Aljamaaher via a from link through Farhh, so again knocking Frankel by association but totally overlooked the fact that Moonlight Cloud and Farhh were only separated by head in the Prix du Moulin last season.

Maybe you can explain why that head difference has you talking up MC but doing down Farhh?

I'm looking forward to seeing Orfevre, I think he's a beast.

His Japan Cup conqueror Gentildonna isn't travelling over according to the RP a few weeks ago.

You right these books Ima then seem surprised when someone answers you. You bring up all these thoughts and then turn them around as if someone else did. You write book after book and it's all boll@x. You are  on other threads telling them they are wrong too.

You didn't say this and you didn't say that. Well what the f@ck are you saying? You write reams and reams you must be saying something? Mustn't you? You go round and round in circles and now you bring up the B&H. Do you ever read the drivel you write?

Go and get a life ffs man!

Brigust appears to be seething, must be a Frankel Franking Day, its ok Mr Mazed hes already lashed out at me for questioning his thought processing, on another thread.

Oh look! Ima's plaything has arrived! What a surprise.

Brigadier Gerrard goes for home, but Frankel looms up yet to be popped the question. Brigadier all out with a furlong to go, Frankel still lobbing along, McCririck takes a long look over his shoulder and pops the question to Frankel, the response is instant. Frankel puts daylight between himself and the Brigadier with McCririck easing down the greatest ever to win by 2 lengths, despite the overweight.

Not a bad days work with my 70% 30% stake split on the Moonlight & Kate. You saw the real Olympic Glory today too, the one that I smashed into LTO in the belief that he would carry that field. I don't think I ever been more disappointed in a horses run than his run that day. If he'd got up today one would have been very miffed indeed.

LOL....nice to see your double standards and hypocrisy are consistent brigust1 if a few paragraphs gets deemed "a book" and I think you maybe should look up the expression involving pots and kettles.

Disagree with me all you like but considering I've only ever been civil to you on here, there really is no reason to resort to insults. I see you are also having trouble working out how if someone attributed something to me and I've not said that why it's so shocking that I point out I didn't actually say that, so if we aren't allowed to correct others on that score then you will obviously have no problem with me claiming you have said BG would win the July Cup and the Ascot Gold Cup, plus the Grand National, Boat Race and the Eurovision Song Contest all in the same season because you did say that didn't you? Or if you didn't would it be unreasonable to point out that you actually didn't?

And if you don't have the wherewithal to work out that it's no more reasonable to judge horses like Excelebration and Moonlight Cloud on a single run like the Breeders' Cup as it would be to judge BG on a single run like the B&H then it's little wonder you think it's drivel when that's what you are actually doing in the first example but wouldn't dream of doing in the second. All I ever do when you make totally unreasonable points is to use them and throw them back at you but with different horses in the my examples just to indicate how unreasonable it all is.

Keep picking those cherries eh?

Ima you are clearly not an idiot.

I have spent some time in the past putting my reasons why I think Brigadier Gerard was a better horse than Frankel and I did it at a time when hype was at it's highest and this forum was blessed with some eloquent posters. I think I covered just about every avenue available truthfully and sensibly and without bias. That was nearly a year ago and as far as I am concerned nothing has changed in any way since.

In saying you are clearly not an idiot you will know that nothing that has happened since Frankel retired has enhanced his reputation while in fact many things have shown quite the opposite. Whether it is Exelebration's reputation being dented, Cirrus des Aigles failing to frank the form or even the form of Farhh in winning the Lockinge can be considered ground breaking or earth shattering. In fact all of these things are detrimental not enhancing.

So why don't we wait until something really memorable or notable happens before we go through this crazy rigmarole again?

My race is run. My points have been made and my confidence is high and even raised by recent events rather than diminished.

I respect that fact that you have your opinions but I'm sure you have had clear sight of my reasons and reasoning. If there are any particular areas where I believe Brigadier Gerard is better than Frankel that you want me to detail again for you I will be happy to do so but if there isn't why don't we just leave it at that, shall we?

I've no problem with you thinking BG was a better horse than Frankel brigust1 as the game is all about opinions and I still can't even make up my mind between Dancing Brave and Frankel, but what I have a problem with is using a particular criteria to knock Frankel when by using that same criteria you could also knock BG but for some reason you never seem to do that.

Horses like Nathaniel and Twice Over haven't or won't run again so we can only judge by the few that have if we want the Frankel form boosted, so in the one breath you say nothing has happened to frank it and then in the very next you mention Farhh winning the Lockinge, but not only did he win it but he did so FTO against race fit rivals and by 4L in a canter. This is the very same horse Frankel easily brushed aside at s mile by 6L and by 7L at 10f which I personally think was Frankel's better suited trip and Moonlight Cloud has more than boosted the form using Excelebration as a benchmark too. Then there's St Nic franking the form in the Sheema Classic at Meydan and the Coronation Cup and how exactly is Excelebration's reputation being dented when Moonlight Cloud and Wise Dan are more than boosting his standing and depending on how you look at thing, you could even argue Animal Kingdom has too?

It's this cherry picking of yours that I have the problem with. If you said there was form that both boosted and detracted from Frankel then fair enough but you only ever want to highlight the latter. Plus it matters little if horses behind Frankel only ever flopped if the horse itself still kept winning, and plenty of times we see those behind a winner flop but that winner still comes out next time and wins, so if you ask me to judge Frankel on what he did or what those behind him later did or do then I'll take the Frankel option every time.

I've also said to you before that CDA has had 3 runs since being beaten by Frankel, one after an 8 month break coming back from an injury and clearly needing it, another on unsuitable fast/firm ground and yesterday when beaten a head with the jockey putting up overweight, so all have valid reasons for those defeats but maybe even the horse isn't the same horse it was pre-injury but with each run it has shown to be coming back a little closer to its best.

If it comes out this season and wins the Juddmonte and/or either the Irish or UK Champion Stakes well then what, does that make Frankel's form OK again?

Ima

Farhh beating Sovereign Debt by 4 lengths is not form enhancing. And Farhh has won FTO for all 3 seasons.

I cannot see how MC enhances Excelebration but even if you think they are similar you will have to go a long way to convince me that the two horses Excelebration beat in winning his races, namely Rio de la Plata and Cityscape, are top class. They are not. So no form enhancing there. And even you must admit MC looked possibly lucky today because had Frankie not decided to go inside of Dawn Approach he would have won. In my opinion. Olympic Glory may go on and prove how good he is we will have to wait and see on that one but through Casper Netscher and Elusive Kate Excelebration's form is falling apart.

St Nicholas Abbey winning both the Sheema Classic and Coronation were fully expected given the opposition ffs. It is a pity he never ran in the King George. That would have told us a lot more. But he was beaten by Farhh in the Juddmonte so it is Farhh's form that matters anyway.

I never rated CDA anyway. All those defeat's and his only Gr1 wins were a) possibly fortuitous in the Champion Stakes  b) possibly fortuitous in Meydan and c) against a non stayer in the Ganay. Not a record you would expect from the 2nd highest rated horse in the world unless the others are rubbish. So no enhancement from him so far.

You cannot just blanket things. If CDA comes out and wins it depends upon what he beats. Just like Excelebration. You can tak him up as much as you like but beating Rio de la Plata and Cityscape is not top class form. Anyway you write it. When the form students revue his form in the cold light of day and compare it with horses he is rated the same as they will immediately see it is wrong. Similarly with Farhh who cannot possibly justify his rating with the form he has shown. I hope he runs again because we need form lines like today.

So considering it is likely Moonlight Cloud would have beaten Excelebration in the Marois last year where does that put him with Olympic Glory? See what I mean.   

Now tell me which criteria I use when comparing Frankel with Brigadier Gerard that you disagree with.

So considering it is likely Moonlight Cloud would have beaten Excelebration in the Marois last year

Seething

Excelebration 2
Moonlight Cloud 0

How good is Olympic Glory to be compared so closely with Excelebration?

In his last run Olympic Glory was badly hampered so that cannot be considered.

In his 4 wins prior to that the horses that finished 2nd and 3rd behind him have run a total of 36 times since resulting in a single Group 3 win only. Does that enhance Moonlight Cloud and Farhh? Or Excelebration?

In the Coventry Stakes Olympic Glory finished 2nd to Dawn Approach and the 3rd horse home has run 4 times since and not won.

But did Olympic Glory run to form today or above it?

In the Coventry he was beaten half a length by Dawn Approach (who never ran his race today).

In the Sussex Stakes Dawn Approach beat Declaration of War by 2.5 lengths. Had Dawn Approach beaten Declaration of War 2.5 lengths today he would have finished about half a length in front of Olympic Glory just like he did in the Coventry Stakes.

Looks like he ran to form for me.

Brigust - you forgot to mention Side Glance again

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Farhh beating Sovereign Debt by 4L brigust1 isn't exactly form knocking either and by your own criteria you are always telling us to judge what the horses do after being (well) beaten by Frankel, so now when Farhh franks that form you want to knock that despite it being your own criteria for judging, yet I can't help but think what the case might have been if Farrh had been beaten. Since narrowly beating Farhh, Moonlight Cloud if you excuse her badly drawn run in the Breeders' Cup is unbeaten winning a Gr3 and a Gr1, which on several lines of form via Excelebration and Farhh put her well behind Frankel too, so is more indirect form franking there.

Whether Moonlight cCloud was lucky or not, would a nose the opposite way have made it a bad run and therefore devalued Frankel's form by association via Excelebration? This is another thing I've questioned you on before in that is only subsequent winning form able to frank any previous efforts? If Excelebration had struggled to beat horses like Rio De La Plata and Cityscape then you might have a point but he beat then convincingly including in the first example in not ideal conditions, on ground described as Very Soft by 1½L and beat Cityscape (a 4¼L Gr1 Dubai World Cup winner) by 1¼L on Good ground and 3L on Soft which suits both horses better. Cityscape was also beaten 4¼L by Wise Dan on unsuitable Firm ground and with Excelebration also beaten 2L by Wise Dan again on unsuitable Firm ground seems a very reliable form tie in. Add to that the fact Cityscape has generally run well in almost all of his recent races even including the Eclipse when tried at 10f, yet was last in Farhh's Lockinge on funnily enough, Good to Firm ground.

As for Farhh winning FTO in previous seasons, one was a maiden and the other two were handicaps so not exactly comparing like for like when winning a Gr1 by 4L as he liked after an 8 month break and coming back from injury against race fit rivals. There are a lot of key points there other than just saying he won, which is something you seem to be ignoring. 

Whether St Nic was expected to win his races this season or not, the point is he did and once again it's your criteria being used here and also once again you would have been the first to use any defeats to knock Frankel if you had the chance to. As for Farhh beating St Nic, well whilst true, you can more than reasonably use St Nic's later form to boost Frankel because once again not only has your criteria been what the 2nd and 3rd horses do afterwards, there was all of a nose between Farhh and St Nic in the Juddmonte despite St Nic having no winning form at 10f and being a far better horse at 12f, so to only use Farhh to boost form and not St Nic seems a bit disingenuous for the sake of a flared nostril difference.

We also don't really need to see Farhh run again anyway to weigh up his form lines as there are plenty there as it is. An unlucky in running 3rd to SYT in the Pow in his first Gr1 and first effort at 10f, a narrow defeat to Nathaniel in the Eclipse, a horse that was a Royal Ascot and almost dual KG winner, then two decent runs behind Frankel in Gr1s, a nose defeat in a Gr1 by Moonlight Cloud and she has more than Franked that form since and Farhh has himself with an effortless 4L Gr1 win in the Lockinge.

Dawn Approach ran his race today (or yesterday as it is now) but at this stage of his racing career he isn't a miler and needs to step up in trip being by a Derby winner. He probably wouldn't have beaten Toronado in the SJP but for his rival being hampered badly and was done for speed by that same horse in the Sussex Stakes, yet after the Derby run you can understand connections dropping him back in trip, even though he had no chance of staying 12f after the way things unfortunately panned out for him at Epsom.

Ima I really don't think you can read! I never started this thread and I never brought Frankel up. Do I need to repeat myself again and again? I am NOT knocking Frankel. I have said that so many times but you are so deluded that you think by knocking Excelebration I am somehow knocking Frankel. Do you really think Excelebration was such a danger to Frankel? Do you? All it tells me is that you have such little belief in Frankel as he stands you think he needs your excuses. Otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing up excuse after excuse.

He doesn't.

Pull yourself together and get a life ffs. Read my earlier post. Please.

All you do is list excuse after excuse after excuse. Just stop trying to preach the formbook to me because it is clearly not your forte.

I mean, you cannot really believe the rubbish you have just written, can you?

As I said in my post of 8.23pm why don't we just leave it at that, shall we?

And Navel if you had any courage you would refer to the OP and others because I never started this thread and I never brought me up. OK.

Morning Brig.
Do you believe Moonlight  Cloud to be a superior miler to Excelebration?

Morning Nirn.

Yes at this moment in time I would have to think she is.

She has run 5 times at a mile, won 3 and been disappointing (rather than beaten) in the other two.

I know some claim she is a 6/7f horse but she beat Farhh in the Moulin and although some are unconvinced about how fast that race was run I believe had it been slowly run Caspar Netscher would have been much closer.

So the next question is 'Is Farhh better than Rio de la Plata and Cityscape?'. I suggest he is and I also suggest he could give Excelebration a good run for his money. Therefore I think Moonlight Cloud would beat Excelebration if they met on good ground over a mile.
Convince me otherwise?

I don't need to convince you Brig, it's all there in black and white in the form book. I was just interested in how you would justify it.

I'm not justifying it Nirn it is just my opinion. I think it would be an interesting race as would Farhh against Excelebration. Timeform have them almost inseparable, the rating is a complete travesty by the way, so there cannot be a lot between them.

Who do you think would in?

Please don't try to kid us brigust1 that you have never tried to knock Frankel by the associated form of those that have finished behind him just so as to support your agenda of having BG as the better horse.

As for some of your other comments, I can't even be bothered to answer them (although I probably have at least a dozen times already and you gloss over them) but you aren't fooling anyone (except maybe yourself) when it's clear for all to see that you take every opportunity to knock Frankel and your posts make that stand out by a mile, which is fair enough but please at least be honest about it.

If you weren't trying to knock Frankel then why would you ever be discussing horses like Excelebration and Side Glance in the first place?

Brigust - just what has courage got to do with it?
These debates have descended into a massive bore and you're the biggest culprit, beating people into a mental submission - I hardly ever tune in to these threads any more and I'm sure I'm not alone...you're like a dog with a bone!

I don't wish to be too critical on you as you're clearly a connoisseur of the game and I like to read your musings when you post, except those with any reference to Frankel!

You persist on rating 'collateral' horses that don't fit into your 'grand scheme' on their mediocre performances and not on what they have proved they're capable of.

I've given up debating with you as I'm sure many others have...it's such a pity that group one performers like St Nicholas Abbey, Farhh & Cirrus Des Aigles have disappointingly dropped off the radar, that Excelebration & Canford Cliffs (I'm not swallowing that Hannon guff) didn't stick around as 5yo's with plenty of doors still open for them to avoid you know who and also that Goldikova & Moonlight Cloud weren't tested against Frankel...undoubtedly they'd have been ransacked!
Freddie's too smart...he would only want his pride & joy FCUKED in the breeding shed and not on the track - does anyone believe either of those two excellent mares would've given Frankel any sort of race? 

It's a very difficult task rating horses like Helissio, Peintre Celebre, Intikhab, Hawk Wing & Harbinger to name but a handful that have just the ONE outstanding performance on their CV's - ideally, we'd like to see such dominance repeated and I have never seen a horse do so in spades like Frankel, so you've had plenty of evidence to sift through yet you choose the most disingenuous route.

As I'm sure you know, Brigadier Gerard was slightly before my time but I'm well aware he deserves the utmost respect for his many brilliant victories.

However, you conveniently overlook and make excuses for the relatively shabby victories when he scrambled home yet you thrive on putting the boot in on Frankel on the couple of occasions he wasn't at his best (for legitimate reasons) and incessantly go through the collateral form with a fine-tooth comb, often quoting meaningless distances like 8.75 lengths (back to x,z or z who have invariably run a shocker) & 17 lengths using an inconsistent rag as a yardstick!

Using spring dividers, slide-rules & protractors is NOT the way I view the greats of this game as I (like most) trust what my eyes tell me and I prefer to rate horses in a race where they've ran to a peak (preferably more than once) like Dancing Brave's Arc.

FWIW, I think great horses are allowed to be beaten...I find it easy to overlook the shadow of the horse Montjeu looked in his last three runs (despite running with some credit) much in the same way the older enthusiasts can readily forgive Nijinsky's disappointing last two runs or for that matter, airbrush Brigadier Gerard's York defeat.

Yes, the clock's useful but I think it's naive to believe that Frankel could NOT have comfortably increased his superiority (lengths-wise) in virtually all of his races.

It's madness to repeatedly cite that before the Roberto debacle, Brigadier Gerard had a Nunthorpe entry (as if that's a gilt-edged endorsement of his speed) - does ANYONE (do you?) really believe that for one second they INTENDED running an unbeaten monster (in 15/16 races at that stage) in a 5f sprint at the same meeting in anticipation of the Benson & Hedges cakewalk it should've been? Absolute balderdash! It'll NEVER happen!

EVERYONE knows that Frankel could've easily battered the sprinters after his Guineas romp but ultimately that may well have compromised his future...Henry had a plan, stuck to it and did so (as he told us all at every stage) without deviation.
Yes, it's a tad sour that he wasn't more aggressively campaigned but that does not detract from his unquestionable grandeur as the ultimate legend for many of us.

You want to put this argument to bed now as nobody will change YOUR opinion and you're well aware that your Brigadier Gerard 'evangelism' has run its course too and that Frankel's fans will remain every bit as staunch as you...about time too

Ima and Navel I suggest you research the threads I have started because you will soon find these threads are started by others and sometimes I am even challenged for an opinion.

I DO NOT START THESE THREADS.

Have you both got that? Have you?

You don't have to come on them either? You are not forced to I don't think but if you want to put your view you are welcome. If you don't want me to respond just put that as a footnote and I will honour your wishes. Otherwise why should I not put my views? 

Why don't you look through these threads and find the occasions when all I am doing is responding to other posters questions? That is all I do. If you don't want me to answer THEN DON'T ASK THE QUESTIONS. Simple.

But you cannot help it can you? I have said repeatedly on here to leave it at that but still you come on spouting your views then blaming me.

Ffs grow up. This is a forum. Discuss your point of view or go away. It isn't difficult. There are thousands of threads on here I never even touch because they are of little interest to me but if you want a proper discussion, the whole reason for a forum, then I will give you a proper discussion.

Of course if you only think what you say is right then start your own threads and ban others from answering to them.

Fair enough Brig...as I stated, I don't bother any more as I haven't got the perseverance.

You have your views, many others' opinions are in sharp contrast...I'm happy with that.
You're not exactly talking through your arse...sometimes it's just shockingly blinkered stuff

Navel I HAVE NEVER MADE ANY EXCUSES for Brigadier Gerard on any threads. Lets get that clear. His record stands by itself. In 40 years I cannot ever remember anyone making excuses for Brigadier Gerard and he doesn't need them. OK?

I have repeatedly stated Frankel is a great racehorse but I have also stated repeatedly that the horses around him are NOT great racehorses. THAT IS NOT HIS FAULT. But I believe it is true just the same. It is just that some think people that because Frankel is great then by association the horses he beat must be great also. It doesn't work like that. Their form is clearly not above scrutiny and neither should it be.

And that is why when a horse associated with Frankel wins a race these threads spring up. NOT BY ME!!!

One thing that's seems very trite (but often overlooked) is that SOMETHING has to win these races once a great horse retires and inevitably, there will be direct form links.

That goes for EVERY generation...Brigadier Gerard's & Frankel's too!

Sorry, why is it relevant as to whether you have started a thread or not brigust1? I'm questioning some of the things you say, I'm not really bothered too much about how it came about that you said those things.

If I was in a pub and got into an argument and a few blokes laid into me and you decided to get the odd dig in too (not that I'm suggesting you would do such a thing lol) if I took a hiding and then saw you alone the next day and pulled you up, the "I didn't start it" line of argument isn't exactly going to appease me is it?

As for discussing my point of view, I thought that is what I have been doing all along, it's just that some of my points of view are not the same as yours and that's fine but just don't deny you have an agenda and that you knock the horses behind Frankel to in effect knock Frankel by association. Just because you might think he is a great horse doesn't mean you won't knock him to help suggest BG is greater and again that's fine, just as long as you don't deny that is exactly what you re doing.

Yes IMA but you keep going on about Frankel. Forget Frankel. None of the horses being discussed could wipe Frankel's boots. I don't know why it bothers you? Just because a horse is thrashed by Frankel it doesn't make them a great horse. If Usain Bolt thrashed me at 100 metres that doesn't make me a great sprinter. What does make me a great sprinter is my other form and it is that other form, without Frankel, that is in discussion.

When you can move on from Frankel and Brigadier Gerard you will see the wood for the trees.

However as I have sad before if you want to discuss these two great horses I will be happy to oblige but don't expect me to agree with you, will you?

So right, I keep going on about Frankel brigust1 and you've never ever mentioned him once?

The thread title told us both what the subject matter was and you found you way into it knowing that and posted:

The only reason Brigust is seething with rage is because he was sucked into the Cirrus des Aigles form with Frankel. Moonlight Cloud just proved the Excelebration for is rubbish and he shouldn't have won last year's race. (I'm glad he did mind because he was my banker). Sovereign Debt and Aljamaaher have franked the Farrh Lockinge form as well. Hey ho. Keep digging Layboy.

And in doing so have basically knocked Frankel again by association using the horses named above, whereas I came in and posted prior to you regarding whether Black Caviar's form was franked yet apparently it's me from the two of us who needs to "forget Frankel."

I think you will actually find just as was the case in this very thread if I have ever mentioned Frankel it has usually been in response to something you have said about him first, which is the thing that actually makes it a response in the first place. The only thing that bothers me is if you use a set criteria to knock Frankel either directly or by association but then don't use that same set criteria with BG just in case it ends up knocking him too.

If you genuinely believe Frankel is an all time great and you don't have any agenda regarding saying whatever it takes to have BG as the better horse in your eyes, then you really should have no reason at all to even be commenting on horses like Excelebration, Side Glance and others.

For the record I don't think too many are suggesting Excelebration is an all time great but if Frankel is and Excelebration can get to within 4-5L of him then that must make Excelebration a very very high class horse and would have been a star at any other time but for Frankel and would have been seen as at the very least on a par with other Ballydoyle milers like Rock Of Gibraltar.

Also if you got within whatever is the human equivalent of 4-5L lengths of Usain Bolt then I would say that made you fairly decent anyway.

Ima do you listen to yourself? You cannot leave it alone can you?

I loosely mentioned Frankel because the closeness of CDA to him encouraged me to back him twice this year and I defended him as well.What is wrong with that. That's form. I never made it up and I never criticised Frankel. But for some strange reason you have to bring up extended form lines that if were you, like Timeform, I would keep quiet about.

What world have you been living in? The general consensus last season was that Excelebration was the 2nd coming as a miler. With the Racing Post leading the way. Where were you then?

And your Side Glance comment is childish. I have consistently, from Day 1, questioned the 147 Frankel was allotted by Timeform for beating Side Glance and Indomito by 11 lengths in the Queen Anne. The race stinks, the rating stinks, it all stinks so why should I sit back and watch the sport I love be used simply for Timeform's benefit? You may be happy to be walked all over but I certainly am not.