will toronado usurp dawn approach as 2000 guineas Fav?

is usurp even a word?

NAP

not a prayer
unless jim takes a nap in the middle of the day

jim is getting old you know, needs his naps

when people realise that olympic glory was a fast diminishing length behind dawn approach, and hannon opts to send toronado into battle instead, the penny might drop!

No chance.

will toronado usurp dawn approach as 2000 guineas Fav? looking like it

prices havent moved

when people realise that olympic glory was a fast diminishing length behind dawn approach, and hannon opts to send toronado into battle instead, the penny might drop!


6f 2yo race

glad I could be of assistance

every chance,

who would you want riding, richard hughes(top jock) or kevin manning(jock)

toronado...place lay

Toronado now officially the best horse in our yard
IT was only a matter of time, but Toronado, impressive winner of the Craven Stakes at Newmarket last week and now 3-1 second-favourite for the 2000 Guineas, is officially the best horse in our stable.


glad i could be

I would want KM ...... as long as he's riding Dawn Approach

IT was only a matter of time,

toronado place lay! oh ffs, you havent a clue lad. give it up

http://www.richardhannonracing.co.uk/index.htm

click on button 7 under the photos, and tell me he's gonna get beat

no need to get a semi-on about it

i hope he stuffs him

not run any good times yet......so at the price the value must  be a place lay

Richard Hannon : last classic winner 1990
Jim Bolger : last classic winner 2008

JB states DA possibly the best he's trained

cant  see dawn approach being out of the 3 so with only 2 places and plenty to prove...timewise...lay every day of the week

JB also stated new approach was not running in the derby

JB said he was having a nap when teofilo went from evens out to 10/1 in the 2000 guineas ante post


moral of the story...........dont believe everything you hear

PMP.......you might wana have a look at the time Toronado posted in his last race, and that was just a stroll in the park. HTH

slow time

topspeed of 88.........the winner of the 2000g will have a speed rating of about 125.....dont think he 37 ibs in hand

had*

the 10f hcap beat the standard by the same  as toronado over 10f......that suggests on times toronado did NOT  run a fast time

toronado could turn out to be a good horse......all i am saying the clock doesnt back up his lofty position in the betting.........its all about opinions

well just maybe that race may be worth keeping an eye on

maybe this does


toronado 1111

no it suggests neither race was a quick time

"He'll come back for the Guineas and what beats him will win," said Hannon.

dont say you werent told

toronado has developed into a monster in the past 6 mths and will hose up in the guineas...........FACT.

Strong tail wind on Craven day hence relatively modest time.

BUT DOCTER WITH STANDARD TIMES WIND CONDITIONS DONT MATTER....TORONADO HAS OF YET NOT RUN A TIME THAT PUTS HIM IN THE GROUP 1 CLASS.....MAYBE HE WILL PROVE IT IN THE GUINEAS......PLENTY OF HORSES HAVE RUN SLOW TIMES AND THEN GIVEN A FAST PACE PROVE THEMSELVES.....HE COULD BE ONE OF THOSE SUCH HORSES

he has ran the fastest time in the craven for which  wiki has records. HTH

he has ran faster than almost all guineas winners since 1878 over newmarket 1m HTH


ok cardiffc, wana come back and say that about his times again

if you think his craven win was fast then the winner of the handicap should be fav for the dante derby and the arc

if you think his craven win was fast then the winner of the handicap should be fav for the dante derby and the arc

the horse wasnt even out of 2nd gear lad

lol, who did you think you were posting as when you had the caps on?

plenty of horses have gone into group 1s with relatively slow times ...some go to prove that given the right conditions i.e a fast run race improve their speed ratings dramatically......but just as many prove that the slow run races flattered them....as I have said toronado may prove the former rather than the latter

but he hasnt run slow, you're just covering your ass

very difficult to compare times in uk racing as the pace is always diff........

brain..........judging by standard times that day toronado comes out with a similar rating to the hcap winner..

as you say maybe the pace of the craven was slow and that  was a reason why his time wasn't that quick..........taipan is talking rubbish ...his time was well below the standard needed to win a classic

we'll see. are you a layer?

no ...unlikely to bet in it.........if I was I would place lay it

anyone know what taipans backed for the guineas?

i'm not backing that useless thing toronado anyway

his time was well below the standard needed to win a classic

So this time was quicker than both Frankel and Sea the Stars won the Guineas in on similar ground . Please do say what time he needed to have run the race in?

roo.........his time was similar to the hcap........are they group1

OK but as you are using time ratings tell me what time he would have needed to run to be deemed classic standard?

The time was extremely quick given that the ground was "good to soft" officially but the wind was extremely strong and helping I guess. Overall he was impressive and who comes out on top will be revealed next week. Toronado will be sweet but Dawn Approach would be even sweeter.

roo.....maybe in a fast run guineas he will produce a fast rating.........its just possible he has not had the ideal chance to do it.....all I am saying is that so far he has not done it

felt...........are people thick.........the time was not quick..........his speed rating come out as the joint highest with the hcap...they produced a almost identical rating.......so judging by gr1 standard it was a long way below the required standard

Sorry official ground was good to firm but time still quick.

So you cannot tell me what a fast time should have been then?

Below standard at Newmarket is fast.

but the hcap was below standard

Yes that was fast too but Toronado was effortless. Do you want to place lay?

if someone offered me a free bet.........place or place lay I would go place lay....my argument is about taipan saying he did a great time....he didn't.....ive layed many horses with slow times  that prove me wrong when getting a fast run race so I wont be laying it...certainly wont be in my placepot though

Say no more, all will be revealed next week.

felt.........if the trainer is right and he is better than the greenham winner then he could win

my argument is about taipan saying he did a great time

But the point is YOU are saying he didn't do a great time and yet you cannot say what a great time would have been . Some time rating guru you are!

roeb.......can you read.......i said his topspeed rating was 88.........a rating reserved for a good hcapper.........frankel produced a 2000g rating of 130......average winner would be about 118-120

none of his 2yo speed rating were up to much and his craven is just about the  same

where as dawn approach has speed rating you would expect from a potential guineas winner

last priced matched

D approach 2.82

Toronado 3.75

less than a point

Assume Steeler will not run as transferred from Mark Johnson to Al Zarooni over the Winter?

last priced matched

D approach 2.62

Toronado 3.25

D Approach 2.72 and the layers are queuing up

Ahh the old "speed figure" argument.



That Frankel was no good you know because he hadn't recorded a decent "speed figure".......McNae and Willoughby wheeled that one out for over a year until proved wrong.

ye, but they hardly said he was 88, "a rating resevered for a good handicapper"- earlier poster!

dawn approach is 8lbs wellin back it.

its not a handicap, HTH

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Assume Steeler will not run as transferred from Mark Johnson to Al Zarooni over the Winter?

no idea but this one has interesting form lines which put a couple of outsiders in the mix.

You are doomed if you have backed Toronado,Orville has tipped it up

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/article/465/8685561/alex-hammond-tor...

almost

alez hammond some babe though, she cant tip whatever she likes

within touching distance now

DA 2.94

T 3.05

he has overtaken him in the place market though

odds of fav tomorrow should be
toronado 1.81
dawn approach 2.18

toronado will rightly go off the favorite and win.

i'm doing 85% place 15% win, that dawn approach is a dogged coont

profit is key


or massive loses!

dawn approach should carry 9st 9lbs, its carrying 9st 1lb.

regarding the times of toronado on craven day
yes topspeed gave it a slow rating but
discounting weight it was group one ability
and so was the last race handicap
BUT the handicap was just that;and very doubtful
that it could be replicated in a higher class.
what i am trying to point out is that the sprint race
was similar , about 5 lbs better then take into account
the wfa allowance for three year olds and its a 120 performance.

YOU HAVE TO COMPARE CLASS WITH CLASS
so ignore the handicap over 10f
and ignore weight.

the real secret to toronado's form lies in the fact
that he beat some gr3 horses like they were trees
and that makes him a 127 sort of horse.

not to be underestimated and should be the fave today.
expect him to lead all the way and has the best chance.

thats stupid..........how can you ignore the hcap..........if you are making a case for toronado on time you cant take its final time it wasnt gr1 class......the last hcap tells you that........but the fact he did the last 3 furlongs  very quickly and the stable thinking he is as good as canford cliffs.....think as a time follower he is a very hard horse to assess........he could be anything............on time its  just guess work

it's ok lads, Deadbrain has this sorted for us, he's the best handicapper in the world and he has DA 8lbs clear, what insight, we really are undeserved

the main flaw of speed ratings are when races are slowly run..........toronado is a classic  example..........none of his races were in fast run races so how do you judge him.......i used to be a place layer and this is one i would have considered but the way the hannons and hughsies opinion of him would have stopped me

taipan tarkin shyte again zzzzz

Mrhunt my very own stalker saying absolutely nothing again

hey, hunt, any 20/1 shots you think havent a hope, cos i feel like backing something

won by 8lbs.

Tornado blew out

unlucky.
Class will out

Winner is a bit special.

shows how much clue Richard Hughes has about the horses he rides...should have asked my dead granny who has more idea....dear oh dear...

but at least he has asn opinion, even thuogh no clue...

funny theres no sign of taipan on this thread since the race

sorry cardiff forgive for not being around on a saturday to get a chance to post


well done to yourself and portmanpark who where clearly right about the times.

improved 2lbs,should carry 9st 10lbs in next group 1,it will carry 9st,10lbs well in.got 2.98 a steal.