race planning in uk for flat is pathetic

RFC's highly-paid narrative-creators are all on holiday at this time of year.

Pathetic is too kind a word for it.  It is an absolute shambles.

The dates of the Derby trials and the Classics in this country have been unchanged for years

hth

Totally agree, the flat racing fixtures are based on a time and era when there were no All Weather fixtures or Dubai Carnivals and National Hunt had a summer break. A total shake up of the racing calendar is called for.

dont mind the dates of the classics, but kempton had a decent guineas trials , thirsk had one, and im sure there was much better cards between doncaster and the craven than there is now

that would be quite a project imo and, at the end of it, you may find that you've swapped your fiddle for a gewgaw

Dont worry as its the many great wealthy owners of horses, trainers and jockeys and the rest of us that spend money on horse

racing that will keep it all going and the Industry and BHA that will follow with their pie charts and silly games

Saturday's fare not very appealing either

This weekend is typical.
Donny tomorrow, nothing Sunday,three afternoon cards on Monday.
Why Monday?
Is it  bookies' influence/money ?

It's the p1ss up and brewery syndrome,and it's even worse for National Hunt.

Agree roggrain, not a lot for me the next couple of days, except the queen's prize at
kemp tomorrow, I think I got a nice one there, be interesting to see how they price it up, this evening.
But I think I might wait until 10 before the off to back it, I'll let the price crash first.

The start of the flat turf season has definitely become more low key during the past few years or so. I remember the time when we would have had twenty five to thirty flat meetings by this stage with several decent cards including guineas trials. Even Thirsk, Redcar and Stockton had a guineas trial. Furthermore, racecourses now seem reluctant to stage races for two year olds. They don't interest me from a punting aspect but the owners of those small early types that would rarely win after the end of May now have little opportunity to run their horses. How many two year old races have we has so far this year ? Any advance on five.

There was also the Northern Free Handicap at Newcastle, that sometimes had a couple of GNS
outsiders running.Seem to remember Bonol winning it impressively in the Muldoon colours.

A radical rethink is required ...I don't think there should be any turf racing in March;the season to start at the beginning of April giving 4/5 weeks before the Guineas which is enough time for the trials. The only race that would probably be scrapped is the Lincoln ,but this is no loss whatsoever as the draw plays too big a big part. Scheduling must ensure that from the opening meeting there should be at least one turf meeting per day.

That Northern Free Handicap was a good race although it was restricted to horses trained north of the Trent. Guineas entry Mrs McArdy was due to run in it off a rating a stone below top weight but she was withdrawn owing to heavy ground. Instead she ran in the Free Handicap at Newmarket, won the race comfortably, and the rest is history.

Posy, I agree about the one turf meeting per day from the outset but to say that the scrapping of the Lincoln would be no loss whatsoever is a bit naïve. To rid the sport of the first traditional big handicap of the season and also the long standing 'spring double' would go down like a lead balloon with all sections of both the racing and betting industries. If flat racing is to begin around April 1st then simply move the 'Lincoln' meeting to suit.

I think the end of March should also signal an end to the AW season. Its April and you still can't get away from the stuff.

and national hunt end april as well

The problem isnt that it starts too late and takes weeks to get properly underway, its that it drags on too long. Every year flat racing rolls on into November, by the time the NH season gets underway the weather takes its toll and NH trainers are moaning they cant get a run. Start the flat season earlier and finish it earlier imo, and less of the huge overlap between both codes.

One of the problems is Easter changing dates every year, what you should have is the flat starting with Doncaster then Thursday it's Aintree the Sunday could then be 1 really good flat card then Newmarket Wed and Thurs

1990 Fixture List - FLAT TURF ....

MARCH

Thurs 22 - DONCASTER
23 - DONCASTER
24 - DONCASTER

Mon 26 - LEICESTER FOLKESTONE
27 - LEICESTER
28 - CATTERICK
29 - NEWCASTLE
30 - BEVERLEY
Sat 31 - BEVERLEY, WARWICK

APRIL

Mon 2 - NOTTINGHAM, FOLKESTONE
3 - HAMILTON
4 - HAMILTON
5 - BRIGHTON
6 - KEMPTON (Turf)
Sat 7 - LINGFIELD (Turf)

Mon 9 - WOLVERHAMPTON (Turf)
10 - PONTEFRACT, WOLVERHAMPTON (Turf)
11 - RIPON
12 - RIPON
13 - Good Friday
Sat 14 - HAYDOCK, NEWCASTLE, KEMPTON (Turf)

Mon 16 - NEWCASTLE, NOTTINGHAM, WARWICK, KEMPTON (Turf)
17 - NEWMARKET, WARWICK
18 - NEWMARKET, PONTEFRACT, AYR
19 - NEWMARKET, AYR
20 - NEWBURY, THIRSK
21 - NEWBURY, THIRSK

Mon - 23 - EDINBURGH, BRIGHTON
24 - EPSOM
25 - EPSOM, CATTERICK
26 - BEVERLEY
27 - SANDOWN, CARLISLE
Sat 28 - SANDOWN (Mixed), RIPON, LEICESTER

Mon - 30 - PONTEFRACT, WOLVERHAMPTON (Turf), WINDSOR (Evening)

MAY

Tues - 1 - BATH, NOTTINGHAM, REDCAR
2 - ASCOT (Victoria Cup)
3 - NEWMARKET, SALISBURY
4 - NEWMARKET, HAMILTON
Sat - 5 - NEWMARKET, HAYDOCK, THIRSK


  PERFECT
---------

I think the main reason why the Lincoln has lost it's buzz is due to a combination of the Dubai Carnival, and a Winter of AW racing.The fixture used to be the first time we'd seen the Flat horses/trainers/jockeys since November and there was an air of anticipation surrounding it all. Now it barely causes a stir.

Another early season fixture not mentioned was the Ascot GNS trials. I think Gairloch won the 2,000 trial on the day Red Rum won his third GH.And Cloonlara refused to enter the stalls in the 1,000 trial on the same day.

Jesus, memory failing, no other than The Minstrel won the Ascot race in 77.

onlooker...makes you wonder how and why this logical programme was dropped

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/media/publications_and_reports/S...

just noticed today theyre running the doncaster mile, wasnt this on the opening day of the flat  previously

Posy,

Main reason for the radical changes to the April program lie in the vast increase in evening meetings from May to August. The turf tracks can only withstand so much racing each year, otherwise they turn into dustbowls or mud heaps, depending on the weather.

Obviously there's more income for them from a midweek evening (probably with a pop concert tacked on), than there is from staging racing in front a couple of thousand pensioners on an April afternoon. So when the the allocation of fixtures became a bidding process, they were happy to stand aside and let the AW tracks fill the gaps.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is the reality.

On a happier note, pretty sure that if you go back as far as 1972, the Ascot Guineas trial was won by Grey Mirage, later to gain greater glory as the sire of Desert Orchid.

Thank you for your interesting response Anorak...in a nutshell what you are saying is that the reality is due to both the weather and market forces...in this instance I think the market has got it wrong and the race scheduling body should step in to ensure there is at least one turf meeting a day once the season has started. With regard to the weather aspect with approx 60 courses up and down the country it shouldn't be too difficult to if necessary 'allocate' racedays to ensure there's one meeting a day from the commencement of the season. As I said earlier starting the turf season at the beginning of April would help.
I remember Grey Mirage well as I knew the owner.

Posy,

We may have entered a time warp - Grey Mirage has just won at Kempton!

one of the top tracks in ireland stage 2 listed races and 2 group races tomorrow, including derby trial, what the hell do we get

They did try quality racing on sunday elisjohn. I'm sure the Lockinge was on a sunday one year. Problem for the racecourses was that attendance entirely revolved round the weather. If the weather was cr@p crowds were small. Even if it was a nice day, they would get a good crowd but very few punters or what you might call high-end users, prepared to spend at bar/food outlets.
With that scenario, why go to the expense of putting on quality racing when crowd size was based on other factors.

cantthink, sorry i meant the whole flat season, just that it still really havent started over here, but group races are in full swing in ireland , and as i say they have a proper derby trial tomorrow, while were waiting for a gns trial which is run in less than 3 weeks

A big issue with me is that ideally the Guineas should be run at the end of May and the Derby middle of July however it'll never happen cos it would interfere with the Aristocracy's Season. The beauty is that this schedule could be contained in a turf season starting beginning of April which I should like to see finish the week the clocks go back in October.

Posy,

Agree about the Guineas and Derby, as those dates would also fit with changing the St James Palace Stakes and Coronation Stakes into 10F Group 1 races for 3-y-olds that could form the the middle leg of a proper Triple Crown. I'd also shift the King George to the end of August as the first leg of a triple with the Arc and the Breeders Cup with appropriate bonuses to encourage horses to run in all three.

The irony of the current schedule is that it was designed to avoid the best horses running on rock hard ground in mid summer in the days when watered tracks and AW gallops were unknown. That's why the Guineas, Derby and Royal Ascot are all finished by mid June. The 'season' was designed to fit around the racing, not the other way round.

Good article in the RP a couple of days ago about the Spring Handicaps of years ago.Kempton at Easter with the Rosebery Handicap and Queens Prize.Epsom's
Great Metropolitan and City & Surburban. Just ordinary handicaps now. The Great Jubilee in May was another cracking race with wonderful old handicappers.
The Victoria Cup at Hurst Park was much better then than it is now at Ascot. Maybe its because I was just getting into racing then and a day at Kempton
or Hurst Park was magic. The rowing boat across the Thames from Hampton church to Hurst Park was exciting for me as a child. Wonderful days that have
all gone. The AW dross and shambolic start to the Flat now has spoilt everything for me.

Clacton great you posted about Hurst Park as I remembered the name but nothing more about it.Having looked it up have discovered that it was at West Moseley and had it remained open it would have been the nearest course to where I live.It seems the Triumph hurdle was run there until it closed in 1962.Must have been a decent course with both that race and the Victoria cup.

Anorak  if it's obvious to us why isn't it to the powers that be ?

I suspect it is obvious to them, but it's easier to spend their time and money introducing bigger numbercloths and changing round the draw positions.

It would of course be a major upheaval - all the tracks that run trials would want to move as well, but there's no doubt it could be done if they really wanted. The biggest isssue would be fitting in with the existing program in France and Ireland - in effect the Irish classic schedule is pretty much the one we're proposing, but you can be sure the trainers would protest if they lost the option to run in both.

One of the major anomalies of the current program is that 3-y-old milers get three goes at a Group 1 win (Nmkt, Curragh, Royal Ascot) without having to take on older horses. The mile and a half horses get two goes (Epsom and Curragh). But the poor old mile and a quarter specialists, of which there are a great many these days thanks to US breeding influence, don't have a single 3-y-old only Group 1 race in the UK or Ireland.

I first proposed these changes in a column in Odds On about 15 years ago, but I don't really expect to see any changes in my lifetime. There are just too many vested interests amongst the alphabet soup of racing's controlling powers.

posy, Hurst Park was right on the River Thames. Sir Winston Churchill was a regular there to watch his grey Colonist II run.
Lester Piggott rode Prince Charlemagne to win the Triumph Hurdle. It was a good course for jumping as well. The Queen Mother's
Monaveen was often seen there. Sadly all gone now.

bit of a contradiction in terms that elise...´race planning in the uk´.

Is there any???

there is also the unbalancing factor to take into account ..the growth of spring n.h festivals a la chelts, aintree, punchestown...although tom. racing at newcastle and redcar same day does not read well. but in the shops it could be from mars and jupiter really ...

I remember when Aintree was mainly a flat meeting with only 2 or 3 NH races each day. The expansion of this into a jumping festival means that flat race course do not want to race until this meeting is over. Would possibly be better to start the flat racing season once the GN has taken place.

They need to sit down with a blank piece of paper ,start with the priorities eg progressive timetable for both classics and all aged group 1s , festivals with a purpose,recognition of major european meetings like longchamp in October to avoid clashes etc,etc. The race programme is too knackered to be tinkered with;it has to be rewritten.