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Sires for Owner Breeders
Sires for Owner Breeders
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Thanks kincsem and proxygene for both your suggestions, both of u mentioned Kodiac so I might look into him though to me 7.5k seems high enough for him
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you might have seen my doubts about him in another thread, guess everybody else is unsure too based on the only reply, ta PM.
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There is only one stallion to consider if you are breeding to race so don't look any further than Big Bad Bob. There is no other stallion standing in the UK or Ireland with a better win to foals ratio.
His owner covered a few of her own mares and anyone else who wanted a free cover in the 2006 2007 and 2008 breeding seasons. Most of the mares he covered during those seasons were very ordinary.The results of these coverings were so remarkable that he now stands at the Irish National Stud at a fee of 6k (Euro) I have listed below each seasons crop analysis which would embarrass a lot of high profile operations. 2007 CROP 12 Foals 12 Named 12 Runners 8 winners of 25 Races 9 Ran as 2 year olds (4 individual winners of 6 races) 2 Stakes Winners, 2 Stakes Placed, 1 Group Winner 1 Group Placed. 2008 CROP 21 Foals 20 Named 20 Runners 11 winners of 25 Races. 17 Ran as 2 year olds (6 individual winners of 7 races) 1 Stakes winner, 2 Stakes Placed, 1 Group winner, 1 Group Placed 2009 CROP 12 Foals 12 Named 12 Runners 6 Winners of 12 Races 7 Ran as 2 year olds (7 Runners 4 individual winners of 6 Races) 2 Stakes winners to date. In Total he has sired 25 winners from 45 foals (14 Colts/Geldings and 11 Fillies/Mares) This crop analysis indicated a number of interesting facts. A foal by Big Bad Bob, will most likely get to the race track. They are precocious. The fillies are arguably better than the colts,so no sad face when your mare drops a filly  and you will have a near 60% chance of winning a race with your foal. From what I have seen to date his progeny seem to go on any ground although they may have a preference for good ground as well as the all weather. They are all tough and genuine.Although these figures are based on a crop analysis of 45 foals, I believe there is enough evidence to deduce that Big Bad Bob is an exceptional sire for anyone intending to breed to race. Is there a sire standing in the UK or Ireland with a more impressive crop analysis? If there is please let me know. |
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Koo....
I haven't forgotten. Over the past while I have been looking at "test-matings" of your seven mares listed against 29 stallions in the Durham, Northumberland, Yorkshire, Shropshire areas. I've added Shropshire as there are 17 there. Now I'm widening the stallions to 53 other UK sires in the £5k and less fee range. The choice / quality in the original 29 was not great. Now 29+53=82 sires. Today I ordered the Statistical Record Annual 2012 from Weatherbys. This will give me easy access to up-to-date sire average earnings, the real test of quality. Book delivery will be early February. So my suggestions will be a combination of (1) match of the stallion and mare pedigree (my opinion) i.e. a look at the foal pedigree (2) stallion fee against stallion quality based on AEI (average earnings index). That is 82 sires x 7 mares = 574 possible suggestions, looked at from two angles = 1,148. I can put a summary of my picks here. But you might like me to send fuller comments to me your e-mail address (your choice.) My e-mail is my Betfair username at eircom.net And after all that your chance of success is almost nil. |
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http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/members/sire_stats/apex_2012.cfm
The above link may be of some help to the stats men out there."There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" |
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Sorry for hijacking this thread again but would be interested if anyone would give me some feedback as to whether a mare I have an interest in Ever Dreaming, would be suitable as a flat broodmare, from a commercial point of view. I don't have much interest in NH racing but perhaps she's better suited to that. What I'm wondering is if I went for cheap speed such as zebedee, elzaam, dandy man etc whether there is a possibility of appealing at the sales,
The positives for me are, Dynaformer, dam and half sister both stakes placed at 2, the negatives are she had very poor flat form, also she ran over hurdles fences which I think can look negative on a page, also Dynaformer is more of a staying influence, Would really appreciate any views, Thanks |
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ovalu. Well firstly if you want to breed from the mare by all means give it a go as it's only a decision you can make and no one should be handing out definitive answers as there is no such thing. Good broodmares come from all sorts of places in most unexpected circumstances.
However. . . Dynaformer is a terrific sire but he has never really figured much over here in a commercial capacity. I hear what you are saying about the 2yo bit, but frankly to get that sort of pedigree on the track at 2 is probably heavily reliant on drugs and it's unlikely to get you something that looks 2yoish at the sales. I would assume your mare is pretty big and having won over hurdles if she produces a foal with any trace of 'backward' the buyers are going to be completely unforgiving. The page to me is one of those american black type pages that has been relatively cheaply earned. There's a lot of second rate tracks featured I'm afraid. I am partial to buying a cheap mare as you probably know, but I'm afraid she would not be on my shopping list, and her age is not a great help either. But if she sits back and lets the stallion dominate, then who knows. If you are a wealthy type you can see what happens. If not then I would think again. |
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PotM,
As always thanks very much for your thoughts, the idea that drugs have influenced the precosity in the pedigree was something that hadn't occurred to me. I think I may risk losing less money if I go down the NH route(cheaper sires) . It's a funny situation but I may be stuck with this mare and have to do something with her, Thanks again |
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ovalu, I've shown on here several times the extent of my ignorance when it comes to NH breeding. My knowledge of being stuck with a horse though is much more extensive
 As the mare has won over hurdles though, perhaps that would be a good angle to explore. Good luck with whatver you choose. |
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Get the feeling that Notnowcato has fallen into an "Owner Breeders'" sire, am I right?
Would anyone here be tempted to use him at a cheap price? His winners to runners is very admirable but they are just not very commercial. Difficult for studs like New England to get behind a horse when its their only stallion. |
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Hi Wilycayote,
I actually bought a mare in foal to him in his first season, unfortunately it died within 24hrs. I was quite positive about him at the time and there are far worse than him at stud. In the current commercial model he certainly doesn't have great prospects and its unlikely that owner breeders with the better mares will use him so he doesn't have much chance of progressing. The best chance he has is as a dual purpose type (but probably only a slim chance). |
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Koo....
I would rate the mares as follows for ease of matching their pedigrees to suitable stallions Caranbola; Ananda Kenda; Certral / Knavesmire / Lily Lenor; Sorcellerie; Striking Cat You asked for sires at £5k and under, preferable based in Yorkshire. Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham have twelve sires: Arabian Gleam (foals in 2013 so as yet unproven); Bahri (21% winners/runners, Racing Post stats) ; Desideratum (no flat runners); Ferrule (5 runners, no winners); Haafhd (30% w/r) ; Iktibas (5 runners, no winners); Josr Algarhoud (16% w/r); Millkom (16% w/r) ; Misu Bond (26% w/r); Monsieur Bond (28% w/r); Mullionmileanhour (foals in 2013 so unproven); Prime Defender (no runners yet). This is a very small number so I extended the search. In each case I looked at a test-mating of the proposed sire(s) and the mare. I based my suggestions on the best test-mating pedigrees (my opinion), then discarded the sires who are unproven or who have poor winners to runners ratios. I looked at 82 sires for each mare. At the end of my comments I added the best local sire (my opinion) for the mare. Ananda Kenda Avonbridge (Runners 270, Best RPR 114,114,108, Euro stakes 15%, Flat winners/runners 29%, based in Hampshire.) Indesatchel (Runners 99, Best RPR 106,96,88, Euro stakes 0%, Flat w/r 23%, based in Shropshire.) Kheleyf (Runners 463, Best RPR, 119,114,113, Euro stakes 13%, Flat w/r 28%, based in Suffolk.) Try Bahri if going to a local stallion. Dandy Man if you want to roll the dice and gamble on an unproven sire in another country. Caranbola Motivator (Runners 225, Best RPR 121,116,113, Euro stakes 18%, Flat w/r 34%, has moved to France.) It is a pity this sire has recently moved. The pedigree match with Caranbola was interesting, and his stats are good. The fee has increased for 2013. Sixties Icon (Runners 15, Best RPR 101,89,88, Euro stakes 25%, Flat w/s 53%) The percentages are a bit misleading due to the small data sample. Sulamani (Runners 90, Best RPR 122,116,116, Euro stakes 29% (2 from 7), Flat w/r 31%) Not many foals from a nine year stud career, three years in France. The St Leger winner Mastery, is his highest ranked horse. He is a reasonable match. Tobougg (Runners 575, Best RPR 115, 115, 114, Euro stakes 20%, Flat w/r 23%) Tobougg has been a little disappointing in eleven years at stud, but does produce winners. Haafhd if going to a local stallion. Certral I can not find many good matches for this mare - possibles are Cockney Rebel, Compton Place. Cockney Rebel (Runners 55, Best RPR 101, 94, 92, Euro stakes 0%, Flat w/r 31%) Compton Place (Runners 1175, Best RPR 125, 121, 115, Euro stakes 22%, Flat w/r 24%) This mating might produce a good filly, although possibly not as his best runners are male. Misu Bond if going to a local stallion. Knavesmire I can not find many good matches for this mare. Both her sire and damsire are from Northern Dancer, and most sires at stud have plenty of Northern Dancer. Sixties Icon is a possible. Lily Lenor I can not find many good matches for this mare – Bahri is a possible. Sorcellerie I can not find any good matches for this mare - possibles are Haafhd, Phoenix Reach. Striking Cat No recommendations. She has three lines of Northern Dancer which would not go well with the many sires at stud descended from Northern Dancer. Her fourth sire line is Nasrullah by Nearco, a similar sire line. I am not going to give my pedigree reasoning for my picks. (1) the post would be too long. (2) it would generate too much discussion, much negative. |
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Some general comments on mares.
Many stallions at stud are by Sadler's Wells, Danehill, Nureyev, Danzig or their sons. It is difficult to avoid them in a pedigree. Too many duplications of these close up in a pedigree is considered undesirable. My thinking is it is best to pick a mare with this in mind. It is tempting to own a mare by Sadler's Wells or Danehill but to which sire do you send the mare? I think it is best to pick a mare with good sires a few generations back in her pedigree, if possible avoiding Northern Dancer line sires to allow you avoid the over-duplication of Northern Dancer / Nearco. You should design the foal's pedigree before you buy the mare imo, not buy the mare then find that her pedigree is overloaded with Northern Dancer, you are boxed in, and have limited sire choice. This is a list sires with the highest AEI in these islands (the list may not be up-to-date for the last ten years or so, but gives a good idea of the desirable sires in pedigrees) Alleged by Hoist The Flag; Alydar by Raise A Native; Blushing Groom by Red God; Dancing Brave by Lyphard; Danzig by Northern Dancer; El Gran Senor by Northern Dancer; Forli by Aristophanes; Habitat by Sir Gaylord; Mill Reef by Never Bend; Mr Prospector by Raise A Native; Nijinsky by Northern Dancer; Nureyev by Northern Dancer; Riverman by Never Bend; Roberto by Hail To Reason; Sadler's Wells by Northern Dancer; Vaguely Noble by Vienna This is a list of the next rank of sires, slightly lower AEIs than the top list Caerleon by Nijinsky; Chief's Crown by Danzig; Diesis by Sharpen Up; Great Nephew by Honeyway; Green Forest by Shecky Green; Ile De Bourbon by Nijinsky; In The Wings by Sadler's Wells; Lyphard by Northern Dancer; Lypheor by Lyphard; Nashwan by Blushing Groom; Run The Gantlet by Tom Rolfe Sharpen Up by Atan; Silver Hawk by Roberto; Sir Ivor by Sir Gaylord; Storm Bird by Northern Dancer; The Minstrel by Northern Dancer Bold shows Northern Dancer sires, underlined shows Nearco line sires (Northern Dancer's grandsire.) |
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If it's speed you want at a very reasonable fee whilst remaining commercial(it does help)Monsieur Bond is as good a bet as you could get,popular gets great sorts and plenty of winners.Or Firebreak again gets winners and is very capable of getting some very good ones.
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This morning I got The Statistical Record 2012 in the post from the nice people at Weatherbys.
I hope they do not mind me putting some stats from that fine annual on the forum. Hopefully they might consider it free advertising. I am listing the lifetime (to date) number of runners (not foals), and lifetime average earnings produced by the sires I mentioned in my earlier posts. Average earnings is I understand by definition 1.0 for the horse population, and is all prizemoney / all runners. If a sire’s runners earn more than the average his average earnings (in USA called AEI – average earnings index) are greater than 1.0. Local stallions near Yorkshire: Arabian Gleam: n/a (no info); Bahri: 143 runners cumulative, average earnings cumulative 1.16.; Desideratum: n/a; Ferrule: n/a; Haafhd: 195 runners ****, average earnings cumulative 0.70.; Iktibas: n/a; Josr Algarhoud: 161 ****, aei **** 0.43.; Millkom: 51, 0.79.; Misu Bond: 31, 0.25.; Monsieur Bond: 135, 0.71.; Mullionmileanhour: n/a; Prime Defender: n/a. Recommendations Ananda Kenda (mare): Avonbridge: 181, 0.58. Indesatchel: 70, 0.62. Kheleyf : 288, 0.73. Bahri: 143, 1.16. Dandy Man: n/a. Caranbola (mare): Motivator: 143, 0.86.; Sixties Icon: 17, 1.15.; Sulamani: 54, 1.10.; Mastery: n/a.; Tobougg: 319, 0.56.; Haafhd: 195, 0.70. Certral (mare): Cockney Rebel: 43, 0.47.; Compton Place: 440, 0.95.; Misu Bond: 31, 0.25.; Knavesmire (mare): Sixties Icon: 17, 1.15. Lily Lenor (mare): Bahri: 143, 1.16. Sorcellerie (mare): Haafhd: 195, 0.70.; Phoenix Reach: 41, 0.31. I have these figures for great sires: Sadler’s Wells: 2193, 3.02; Nijinsky: 851, 4.71; Mr Prospector: 1178, 3.98; Bold Ruler: 356, 7.73; Northern Dancer: 636, 5.10. The breeding season starts today, 15th February. Good luck. |
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**** is c u m ..... an abbreviation for cumulative
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Thanks to anyone who offered any advice, i read everything and tried to take every piece of advice on board.
Basically so far all thats been decided is that ; Certral and Lily Lenor will visit Haafhd. Hes located within 2 miles which made things easier to decide on, my only issie was the size for Certral and Haafhd. But i prob thought she looked smaller compared to Brians other race horses, compared to other mares at the stud, she doesnt look too bad. Ananda Kanda is prob going to rest this year so we get a chance of an early covering next year. Shes due to foal to Haafhd in April Sorcellerie is actually back in training, i couldnt decide if i liked the thought off breeding off a 3yo so i got a 2nd opinion from a different vet who said her knees were fine to start back with. Cantering along nicely, lets hope Elsie was right and that shes capable of winning races. Of the others, well they arent mine to make decisions on, but i didnt want to wait any longer with Certral. Oh and the missus is happy, Dream Win is going to be a daddy soon. Will have one more run, then will stand and cover a few homebreds from a trainer local to us. He might get to see to Striking Cat as the other is happy to give her away for free to us for him to have a go on. If anything else comes to hand will update the thread. Fingers crossed now that Certrals half brother by New Approach wins the dewhurst and the Selkirk half sisters to Sorcellerie produce the goods over the next few seasons. |
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Monsieur Bond's daughter Ladies are Forever wins today a listed race over 6f and does it nicely too,another filly by him wins as well yesterday over 5f.At his fee he's great value and commercial,a sire on the up.Very comparable to Compton Place just his fillies are better than Compton's and he represents better value for money too!
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A quick update to anyone interested at all.
Got 3 mares currently, did try to go to HQ and look at some more but they were withdrawn sadly. Had a few quid to spend, but was very specific in the ones i liked so didnt go and just try and buy anything. Hence Im still with the ones i had before. Ananda Kanda currently has a 2yo filly by Haafhd in training, not the biggest but well put together and might make a 2yo. AK is currently in foal to Sulamani and will then go and visit Farrh, as we felt like taking a chance having had time to see the first foal looked ok. Sorcellerie is in foal to Haafhd, not decided yet if she has enough quality to continue with, her siblings that have raced in the last 2 seasons have shown very little. Will make a final decision once i get to see the foal. If shes covered again, I wont be paying alot regardless on the foal. Certral is in foal to Delegator, was quite a late cover so Ive not rushed to organise a sire for this years cover yet. How late is too late for most people, I think shes due to foal early May. I did have Impeccable Guest who has had a nice foal by our own Stallion Dream Win. Since then though we gave found good homes for both mum and dad. I cant imagine any being sold as yearlings just yet, so any future covers dont have to ve commerically driven. Maybe once, hopefully anyways, thrown a winner, I might start thinking of selling on. So, far no real panic moments apart from the invoices :) |
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Theres alot of stamina influences in the pedigree of Sorcellerie....duplications of Shirley Heights on both sides of her pedigree and being out of an Hernando mare with the second dam being by Nashwan your best chance is to try breed some speed back into the mare.
She has little maternal strength in her 7 gen make up so you should try breeding some speed influences into her as she has a nice pedigree, blue hen damline which traces to the top class female lines of Carpet Slipper etc.. Burwaaz is a new sire up your way, he is a better mating than Haafhd. Concentrate on stallions containing Kris, Pivotal (tough to find in a cheap stallion). Heeraat at Mickley is good value, not the best mating for her but offers something different. Good luck |
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What mare are you looking to be covered?
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What mare are you looking to be covered?
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Im about sorted for this season thanks, this thread started a couple of years ago when i wanted some opinions on sires.
Got one additional mare to the ones posted above, and shes called Perfect Persuasion who cost a few quid but hopefully she produces a nice foal next year. She goes to Medicean i think Ananda Kanda has foaled now to Sulamani and the foal looks a nice bit bigger than last years as well as being a colt. Sorcellerie looks enormous and if she produces a decent sized foal she might be given another chance with a cheapish cover. Certral has a late cover and i cant decide whether to let her have the season off and be ready for an early cover the year after. |
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Bought a new mare, Run Fat Lass Run. Just looking for a sire and cant decide if im mad at looking at Orientor, will prob enquire into Swiss Spirit as well. Might take 2 wherever i go to see if they'll deal :)
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Koo, 2 right sires at full price will always be a better deal than 2 wrong ones with a price reduction!
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I pick the sires i like first then hope they knock a few quid. Hope they dont read this tho. Dont think id use Orientor, just in the off chance i do sell something. Shame he hasnt had many chances, but going to stud as a old stallion never would have helped anyone.
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Koo, I saw Orientor years ago at a stallion parade and I really liked him. Not been the right breeding for my mares, and upper Scotland not the best location either, but you have a mare of unfashionable lines anyway so you will struggle so sell, whatever the sire you use. If you are happy to race the foal then for what it's worth I'd say Orientor's track success is way above expectations for the mares he has covered and he'd be much more of a fun choice than Swiss Spirit.
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I wont be selling anything yet anyways. Hes done well with what chances he had. I stumbled on him again as my mares dam is a half sister to Needwood Blade who beat Orientor in a Doncaster maiden rated about 57. So it got me thinking if it was a quirky twist of fate. I might enquire on the price and go from there anyways.
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Looking for potential new mares, made me find SAFIRA MENINA as a potential improver once she got a handicap mark. If she isnt capable of winning off 60 then they might as well have sold her at tatts ?? Hopefully she wins before too long as I'll have to back her a few times. Runs tomorrow 5pm Chelmsford fwiw
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Even if you might not be planning on selling, I was always taught to keep the selling option open, as you never know what the future holds financially. If you go for a horse like Orientor, you might have a bit of fun but you're very unlikely to have something valuable. A horse like Swiss Spirit can always keep open the possibility of a good pay day if its ever needed.
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I get what you mean, dont think id consider a cover unless it was a maiden mare and keeping the costs down. Id defo consider selling produce onces id got the mare a winner on the track so im confident id want to keep the first produce or two so i can ensure she gets a good chance as possible of having a winner.
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Koo, out of interest which stallion(s) did you decide on in the end?
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Right then, its a fair list now im acquiring. Good job I havent reached premium charge level yet!!
Certral - Kuroshio Ananda Kanda - Faarh Sorcellerie - Cityscape Run Fat Lass Run - Delegator Perfect Pursuasion - Medicean New mare alert - NH MARE ALERT AS WELL Lily Lenor - Malinas I think thats the lot. The only upside to quite a few mares is they are alot cheaper to keep than alot of horses in training. Although Run Fat Lass Run might come back in training as she was hard fit when arriving. Regards mating plans, I must admit i blinded myself with science, going through countless stats and finding plusses and minus for most matings. So in the end i just dismissed the ones i really couldnt have and then went a bit with pure luck. |
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Hi Koo,
if i was lucky enough to be an owner breeder I wouldn't be too keen to use the likes of Kuroshio, Cityscape or Delegator. You are just in the business of proving stallions for other people if you use them. I would prefer proven stallions that are unfashionable. I would even look at some of those well bred Derby types that end up in Coolmore's NH yard without been given a chance at the flat bred mares. Medicean is a really good choice that if you ever got a decent filly from him could make a great broodmare with Machiavellian and Storm Bird close up in the pedigree. Good Luck |
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Well done Koo & friends with Balty Boys, the rubys are on you tonite
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His half sister was in the sales yesterday but was withdrawn. I have his 2yo half brother by Canford Cliff's so lets hope he can match his acheivements
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Cheers as well
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Enjoy the moment, must be a fantastic feeling!!
G/L with the 2 year old |
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Need some more sires for next year, ended up as mentioned before picking rather randomly, but hey who knows if thats not as bad a selection statergy as it seems.
A friend suggestion Mount Nelson and the Archipenko's might not be bad for my type. Solid sires who get winners and dont break the bank rather than the first season brigade. Anyone any views for next years sires, away from the first season ones as there are a few nice threads going up which havent been unnoticed. All this years foals look decent, a lovely big Sulamani out of a winning 2yo and winning hurdler. And a very strong delegator. 5 mares in foal, sadly the half sister to Connecticut was a late foaling so we only had 1 chance to cover her and she didnt catch so we start next year nice and early with her. Be nice to get her in foal, her foal is nice enoug but as hes upto 3 months behind its sometimes for me to judge how forward he looks for his age. Ive not that much interest in having loads of horses in training, so the mares keep me occupied and something to look forward to |
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A wet Monday is a good time to cheer ourselves up with a bit of planning for the mares isn't it? Archipenko is on my radar as well, he's shaping up to be a really good sire and gets a high percentage winning at 2 which young mares need to get them off the ground. I haven't seen a Mount Nelson that wasn't big and took time to mature, but they are often good if you have the patience. Thinking Lanwades again, both Sir Percy and Aussie Rules are good established sires at a fair price. Away from Newmarket Sixties Icon still gets his winners when the rain is around, though his published fee seems a little high, and there is the reliable Monsieur Bond in the North. Firebreak gets a good one most years from few chances. I've only covered England , know that's where you are based and use the stallions. There is Russian Roulette value in chancing a second, third or fourth season sire of course but I'll not suggest any to you as others on this forum will have better insight into them than me. Good luck and let us know what you finally decide in due course.
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