There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
These 338 comments are related to the topic:
Frankel v Brig Gerard- a show of hands
Frankel v Brig Gerard- a show of hands
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 338
|
By:
Oh dear, northernlad is making a t*t of himself again
 |
|
By:
Possibly total ****s who get carried along with the willie &
Clair hype, when in his greatest test Frankel beat a gelding, will no doubt win the argument through ignorance. Unfortunately Horse of the year Camelot by a mile. 2000 Guineas. Derby, Irish Derby, 2nd St Leger. Attempted the Arc. Far superior to what Frankel acheived in two seasons. |
|
By:
ROFFL,Northern whippet botherer
|
|
By:
LOL Northernlad has been knocked back by a sheep on the moors.nap
 |
|
By:
Look its just the Tony Blair brand of popularism you kids have grown up with.
I'm old School! What I want to know is as a three year old how many classics over how many distances & how it beat the older generation. If they are still running as a 4y0 they have obviously failed. Idiots like you Busvado just bastardise English racing |
|
By:
i agree with nothern, camelot has achieved more than frankel but he is still an inferior horse.
imo |
|
By:
I was brought up at Eton,don't you know!
 |
|
By:
ILWAB,it was only a matter of time,STS and Mick Kanine!
 |
|
By:
sts wouldve carried frankel on his back and still beat BG
|
|
By:
|
|
By:
Unfortunately Horse of the year Camelot by a mile.
|
|
By:
I dont think there was a horse that lived who could have beaten Harbinger on that day at Ascot in July just over two years ago.
Whether he could have reproduced that again is another question |
|
By:
Consistency equals quality Zilzal
|
|
By:
zilzal makes a very good point about harbinger on king george day nothing i have ever seen would have got anywhere near him.
|
|
By:
Another case where it is abundantly clear Timeform have their ratings wrong and where they are raising their ratings disproportionately, in my opinion, for commercial reasons. They clearly have no respect for the racehorses that have given them their livelihood.
Frankel beat Side Glance (rated by Timeform 117) by 11 lengths with Indomito (rated 115) a length away. Neither horse has been place in a Group 1 before or since and neither has won a race since. In contrast Harbinger beat Capo Blance (rated 6lbs higher than Side Glance) by 11 lengths with Youmzain (rated 9lbs higher than Indomito) 3 and a quarter lengths away in third. Both 2nd and 3rd are Group 1 winners and Capo Blanco has since won 4 Group 1's. And it is not a surprise Harbinger won because he had easily won his 3 previous races and was unbeaten for the season. There is no comparison between the 2 races above. Where any differential may be applied as a result of the distance is easily rebuked by the quality of horses beaten. |
|
By:
*rebutted
|
|
By:
Returning to the point of the thread.........Brigadier Gerard.
|
|
By:
Whats the score?
|
|
By:
2-0 Braga
|
|
By:
Youmzain was a donkey according to you Brigust,when we were discussing STS?
 |
|
By:
frankel
|
|
By:
You been drinking again GT. You get all aggresive at this time of night. I never said Youmzain was a donkey, never use the word, what I may have said is that the STS Arc form was let down because Youmzain was 2nd. Completely different. Still does not alter the point I made because they were not my ratings.
|
|
By:
Just jogging your memory Brig,we have always agreed (mostly) about Timeform and their ratings but I cant buy into the distances and lbs per length methodology as you seem to do at times.Youmzain was probably the most consistent yardstick for any Arc ever run but even using him did not give the complete story of STS in the Arc.
I formed my opinion by standing just yards away from the 100m mark and using my own 20/20 vision and this is where it was possible to see the real story.Timeform completely ignored the fact he could have won by another 5-6l minimum had he been really asked,take the difficulty he had getting out of trouble into consideration and I read a different and more accurate race than the official handicappers. Assume that the same could be said of all the top races they have evaluated and consider how many they have completely misread simply by relying on a piece of string and a slide rule. |
|
By:
My point about Youmzain, GT, was that he was beaten over 14 lengths by Harbinger who beat Cape Blanco by 11 lengths in the King George (not a mickey mouse race) and yet they rated Frankel 7lbs higher by beating Side Glance by 11 lengths with Indomito a length behind in the Queen Anne. I know they are different distances but Cape Blanco is a multiple Group 1 winner and Youmzain a Group 1 winner and multiple Group 1 placed as well.
|
|
By:
GEORGE B are you on drugs. Sea The Stars wouldnt know which way frankel went.
|
|
By:
youmzain was about 15 when he lined up in harbis king george ffs.
look at all of youmzains races at longchamp...nuff said! |
|
By:
Ilwab knows.
 Btw Ilwab do you consider me to be aggressive? Say no or I will have a word with Big Brenda (n)  |
|
By:
Ilike you have to admit Youmzain brought down STS's rating. Had Da Re Mi finished 2nd instead of 5th beaten 3+ lengths it would have done him no harm. As it was CAvalryman was 3rd and Conduit 4th. Brought the form down.
|
|
By:
There are lines of form through Daryakana and Vision D'Etat and Cirrus Des Aigles puts STS ahead of Frankel. Just depends how you read them.
|
|
By:
Conduit brought the form down?
 |
|
By:
i dont admit that brig.
youmzain is a great yardstick round longchamp when he was good. zarkava , dylan thomas,he loved the place. A 4 yr old youmzain would have given anyone a race round longchamp. hes always gonna come late and fast no matter how good you are and lets face it, sts won with incredible ease in the end going from 5L down on the rail to 3 ahead in a furlong, miraculous! only with a few pints of stella inside ya gt! |
|
By:
There you go about bringing form down Brig,what was behind and how far beaten is completely irrelevant if you factor in what could and would have happened if Mick had gone for the full monty.
How do you rate Danedream IYO and Timeforms evaluation of her Arc? |
|
By:
"There are lines of form through Daryakana and Vision D'Etat and Cirrus Des Aigles puts STS ahead of Frankel. Just depends how you read them"
Just depends on how determined you are to discredit Frankel...ignoring Cirrus Des Aigles significant improvement! We've all got our opinions Brigust but you're using slide-rules & theodolites to over-zealously make your point...it's tiresome after a while  |
|
By:
then again i tend to not put AS MUCH emphasis on collerateral form as many on here, if i did id be a millionaire.
dont get me wrong its important, v important, but im flexible. i try to take in all the circumstances. like youmzain at longchamp for example,different horse round there. just like twice over at newmarket. st nic abbey on tight lefthanded tracks like chester. its all about the conditions of the race for me. |
|
By:
I'm in your camp ILWAB with that - it's like Cheltenham Festival form...and it has to be taken into consideration that horses going there are primed for the big day, and they're invariably running under the same conditions (time of year, ground & pace of the race) after running in 'trials' on bottomless ground!
You just HAVE TO be flexible! |
|
By:
Using your analogy ilwab,Kauto Star won the Gold Cup twice but would probably have won 6+ had it been run at Kempton.There are so many factors in evaluating a horses worth away from bits of string and slide rules.
This is where Brig and Timeform fall down,the fact KS won and was the first horse to regain the CGC negates all the knockers of the horse and yet plenty still question his rating as being too high. |
|
By:
Isn't it odd Navel. Fidway says STS wouldn't know which way Frankel went yet when I say there are form lines connecting STS and Frankel I'm wrong. Odd. In never said Frankel would beat STS or the other way around.
|
|
By:
well i mean id be happy to lay youmzain generally and although he was a dog of a horse and i mean that affectionately a good dog
i would not in a million years lay him at longchamp. |
|
By:
A theoretical scenario Brig........
Harbinger Workforce Danedream Which would you rate top etc without considering anything other than your own eye and opinion? |
|
By:
And I still think if Youmzain, Cavalryman and Conduit had not run in the Arc and STS beat Da Re Mi (she had just won 3 Group 1's) by 3+ lengths his rating would have been higher than it was. And he did beat her that far anyway, it's just the others were in between.
|