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Frankel, a champion but not the greatest of all time until he embraces the ultimate challenge.
Frankel, a champion but not the greatest of all time until he embraces the ultimate challenge.
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So Aussie by slagging off the Australian horses have you considered that without Frankel the best horse in the UK is/was an ex Australian horse. Does that poor quality of Austalian horses improve or reduce the quality of the horses he has beaten and therefore go on to run against Frankel?
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Brigust,when you snuff it can i put a picture of Frankel beside your stone.
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Tree, the above poster was not just knocking the Aussie horses he was knocking the horses Frankel is beating ffs. You can't win with you guys can you?
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Eh, when did Frankel beat So you think?
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SoYT is good, but not great. Winning around that dog track is a very specialist act. Horrible course always hated it. Frankel would muller SYT except at Moonee Valley.
Best overseas horse that has eve come over here was Starcraft, and that was a Kiwi  |
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Elvstroem 5 time Group 1 winner including the Group 1 dubai duty free and Internationally Group 1 placed and emerging sire, Efficient 3 times Group 1 winner subsequent Melbourne Cup winner and injury plagued star stayer, Lion Tamer brilliant winner who was on the verge of becoming a WFA star when he broke down and died in the 2011 Cox Plate, Dulcify who became a superstar winning the cox Plate by the length of the straight before he shattered a leg in the Melbourne Cup as a 4yo. Sovereign Red 6 times Group 1 winner, Mahogany WFA star and 7 times Group 1 winner, Red Anchor superstar 3yo and Cox Plate winner whose career was tragically cut short as an autumn 3yo and Blackfriars champion WA sire, Grosvenor champion sire, Monaco Consul dual Group 1 winner and multiple Group 1 placings. So much for rubbishing the VRC Derby.
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frankel would beat em'all
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With 3 legs.
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With a storker on
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Sarcraft good horse but not in the same street as the Bart Cummmings trained So You Think So You Think who made a clean sweep of the major Melbourne spring WFA features from 1400m to 2000m, I can't remember the last horse to have done to win all of the traditional lead ups to the Cox Plate win the the Cox and then back up a week later and canter in with the Mackinnon Stakes at WFA.
As for the Mackinnon Stakes winners Leilani, Dulcify, Family Of Man, At Talaq, Rubiton, Empire Rose, Horlicks, Better Loosen Up (the last two both being Japan Cup winners subsequently) Lets Elope,Veandercross, Paris Lane, All Our Mob, Lonhro, Grand Armee, Desert War, Theseo, Scenic Shot, and So You Think that list of winners reads like a who's who of Australasian racing. So much for rubbishing the Mackinnon winners |
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I know geoff m that I really should just ignore megsy but then he will just come out with some outrageous make up his own comment just so that he can then argue with it remark that it's just laughable.
Lets Elope is getting just as bad now too when saying things like the Frankel's form doesn't stand up especially the 2000gns. Well if I remember right Roderic O'Connor was one of the very few that tried to go with Frankel from the front and ended up well beaten, Dubawi Gold sat off the pace and ran through beaten horses and those that went off to fast and couldn't sustain it (maybe that sounds familiar megsy?) and yet they were 1st and 2nd in the Irish 2000gns with Roderic making all from the front (something he couldn't do with Frankel) and Dubawi running a similar race as at Newmarket. Certainly horses like Excelebration, Dream Ahead, Nathaniel, Colour Vision, Premio Loco, Sri Putra, Treasure Beach and others have more than boosted it too. He then uses Farhh's 7L proximity to Frankel to if I think I understand his point say the likes of SYT and Nathaniel would also beat Farhh by around the same distance when in fact SYT beat him 2¾L despite Farhh having a troubled run and Nathaniel only beat him ½L and so on the bare from alone puts Frankel quite a bit above those two horses and doesn't even take into account they were all out to beat Farhh, whereas Frankel did it comfortably and eased at the line. Oh and it's not just our ratings, the UK Official Rating that have Frankel up there, it's the World Thoroughbred Rankings that are made up by the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities, key word being International that have nothing to do with the UK other than the UK are members. It has its headquarters in Paris and is made up of members from around the world. These were also the same ratings that many Aussies had no problem with telling us Black Caviar was the best horse in the world when she topped them but suddenly don't mean as much now Frankel does! |
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Out of all those winners I'll give you Elvstroem as a decent horse, Dulcify, Lets Elope as very good horses, Lonhro of course is my favourite, Desert War was a dog. Efficient was absolutely the worst Cup winner ever.
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Extraordinary win and one of the best Cup winners in the last decade, the horse is a cripple has broken down more times than I've had hot dinners and still keeps bouncing back, he would have been anything but for an injury plagued career. Desert War was an exceptionally good miler to 2000m horse, a winner of no less than 6 Group 1's including back to back to Epsom's and a winner of well over $3,000,000 in stakes if he was adog, I'd love to own a horse as bad as him.
Any more distortions of the truth you would like to spread or are sick of having your lack of knowledge exposed publicly. |
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Bloody hell,he's crawled back.
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In every sport you have to win the biggest prizes & beat the best
to be considered the best. Would Vetel be World Champion & considered the best if he'd only won 1 Grand Prix? - No! Would Federer be considered the best if he'd only won 1 Grand Slam? - No! With an inability to stay 1m4f Frankel did not win any of racings major prizes. A great miler - yes, but thats as far as it goes! |
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The trouble is Lets Elope, what you are doing is listing names of horses that have won the race and then claiming they are a who's who of Aussie racing but on the whole that's all it is, Aussie racing.
It would be like me listing Sir Percy, Kris Kin, Benny The Dip, Shaamit and others as Derby winners and claiming they read like a who's who of great UK horses when that clearly isn't the case. If I remember rightly Glass Harmonium won the Mackinnon last year and Stoute used to train him here and managed to squeeze 3 wins out of him with a Gr3 being the highest level and left here rated 115 having last been seen beaten 5L by Twice Over in a Gr1. The same Twice Over just beaten 13L by an eased down Frankel and the horse wouldn't even register as one of the owner's top 10 ever let alone the trainer's and yet wins a Gr1 over there like the Mackinnon Stakes. |
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He just won over 1m2?????
As for Desert War it was always a complete hound. I'd seen better one's going around Geelong or Ballarat! Including my favourite Ruben winning on Ballarat Cup day, still living off those winnings :D |
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Ima,they will just say their trainers are better.
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they talk about our ratings being inflated yet before black caviar came over they were saying the best in the world and look what happened there
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Peter Moody said Frankel was the best he had ever seen,say no more.
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That's because unlike some of your so called genius trainers our trainers aren't still training in the 1960-70's and employing the same techniques from those era's, granted some of your younger trainer are very astute Richard Hannon Jnr Tom daschombe etc and Cumani is a great rainer no doubt and Dunlop seems to know what's he on about and quickly realised the right type of horse to bring out for the Cup, something O'Brien still hasn't figured out plus horses acclimatise and can improve significantly in a diferent environment, being trained more for speed and allowed to show that speed rather than just being pidgeonholed as a particular type of horse by a large training operation which seems to happen with so many of your horses.
If trainers such as Chris Waller, Gai Waterhouse, Peter Moody, John Size etc set up over there permanently the majority of your trainers wouldn't know what hit them but fortunately for you that would never happen because the financial returns due to the pittances of a stake that you regularly race for, aren't worth their time and effort. |
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Ye Tree but he weren't saying that before ascot
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So predictable LE,no he wasn't 1mill.
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With an inability to stay 1m4f Frankel did not win any of racings
major prizes. In which case, neither did Cockney Rebel. Yet you claim his 3yo career was better than Frankel's |
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What about Snowden LE,graced the Dubai meeting
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LOL....probably Treebeard yeah.
I love it too when people like northernlad5 make an attempt at an analogy to help prove their point when it's not even close to what they are comaparing it with. He asks would Vettel be world champion and considered the best if he'd only won one Grand Prix as if Frankel has only ever won one Gr1 and so makes that analogy totally meaningless. He then asks would Federer be considered the best if he'd only won 1 Grand Slam and the same applies there too, totally meaningless but most people would still have also considered Fedderer a great had say he not won a French Open, just as McEnroe never, nor an Aussie open either but I'm sure most would say McEnroe was still one of the best ever. He himself has decided Frankel doesn't stay 12f too, even though he didn't look like he was stopping to me at York or the fact that he just might still run in the Arc anyway, or at the very least that can't be dismissed yet but even if he did and won the Arc and retired, no doubt it will be argued he can't be considered the best because he only won once at 12f. There's no check list that you can go ticking off criteria as you go along as to what decides whether a horse is the best or an all time great and despite the fact Frankel has won G1s at 7f, a mile and 10f, if that just makes him a great miler and not one of not the best horse ever to race then all Black Caviar can be considered is a "great" sprinter and nothing else and can't then be talked about as one of the best race horses ever. |
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Messara is getting a taste of training Newmarket style, albeit with one horse, stable star Ortensia, one of the favourites for the Group 1 July Cup at Newmarket racecourse tomorrow.
Some of the best trainers in the world are based at Newmarket including Sir Henry Cecil of Frankel fame, Sir Michael Stoute, Luca Cumani, John Gosden and others, and Messara has taken the opportunity to learn from these masters of their trade. “I’ve spent a couple of mornings at different stables, spent some time with Luca Cumani,” Messara said. “It is fascinating, a very different style of training, The training facilities are very different to back home, they have a lot of staff in the stables, the tracks they race on are very different. |
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Messara has taken the opportunity to learn from these masters of their trade.
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just LMFAO at some of the posts on this thread!!! |
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Snowden was forced by Godolphin to run two horses that were out of form and whom he knew couldn't win Helmet was going like a busted arrse before he left Australia and was millions and Sepoy hadn't come back the same horse either in the autumn and is not a straight track and didnt handle the tapeta a fact that Snowden a fortnight beforehand when he expressed his concerns publicly about the horse failure to adapt to the surface.
This is how smart Godolphin have been in their placement of these australian horses given the track condition in the July Cup Soul would have just about won the race as he is an absolute swimmer, yet Godolphin run in him in a relatively minor Group race on the same day at a different meeting, Sepoy who has proven that he can't handle the wet insteads represents them in the July Cup, shocking placement of both horses. Sepoy also is nowhere near as good down the straight as he is around a bend, a fact that he proved time and time again in Australia, again shocking placment of the horse. |
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and is not a straight track horse, he's won ons everal occasions at flemington down the straight but has never gone the same as he does around a bend.
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Just for megsy who had a memory obliteration
FRANKEL (45) put up one of the most breathtaking displays of front running when setting an almost impossibly fast pace in the 2000 Guineas. He went so fast he was at least ten lengths clear at halfway and clocked times that would win top Group 1 sprints for the first five, six and seven furlongs. Frankel was understandably tiring quite dramatically in the last half furlong but was still half a dozen lengths clear at the line. |
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Can anyone name a race Frankel could even race in in Aus? Only ones I can think of at G1 1600 m level are handicaps, where he would be handicapped to death. Emirates Stakes. George Main stakes are the only two big ones I can think of.
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LE,i think Simon Crisford is fearing for his job.
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Sadly there are "still" some punters & other racing people that think Frankel is not one of the best EVER. They will not be happy until he gets beaten (which wont happen) and will always "try" to find fault in what the GREAT horse has achived in the last 3 seasons, madness in my book.
I have NO doubt what so ever, that Frankel is one of the racing greats, prob the best ever to grace the racecourse. I have never been more impressed by a racehorse since Dancing Brave until this fellow came along (Frankel) For my money, Frankel would be to gd for The Brave over 1m & 1m2f, over 1m4f who knows? I dont expect Frankel to run in the Arc or in the USA, & personally i dont think he needs to, as the Arc can be a very messy & rough race run on bad ground with way to many runners for a G1 race, bad ground alone would rule him out. If he were yours or mine (if only) would you be willing to let him race (for the 1st time) over 1m4fs on bad ground & from say (stall 20 of 20) in the Arc?? NO WAY ON EARTH WOULD YOU!!! I very much hope & expect the two Great Men (Sir Henry & The Prince) will stick to there plans & finish Frankels Brilliant & expertly handled racing life in style, by winning the Champion Stakes on Champions Day at Ascot.  |
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Well said Miller.
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Especially the parts in CAPITALS!
Those alone have convinced me |
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the aussies won't accept frankel as a great horse until he can win over the plodders distance of the melbourne cup.
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Come on now geoff m be serious, megsy will tell us that Frankel was actually speeding up and going faster in the final furlong and that it's all in the sectionals and we know nothing about times in this country as they aren't traditionally used here, so that obviously means none of us know for example that 11 seconds last longer than 10 seconds.
 He thinks a horse that has already run 7f and really quickened say 3f out and put in his fastest 2f between the 3f and 1f out markers can still sustain that and go even faster in that final furlong despite already having run 7f earlier. Oh and Dubawi Gold and Native Khan were actually really quickening and closing Frankel down in the 2000gns, it has nothing to do with Frankel tiring slight for the final furlong and nothing to do either with those 2 horses running passed beaten horses that had tried to match strides early with Frankel but were seen off and so were dropping back! Horses like: 7th - Pathfork - Prominent in main group, ridden and no headway halfway, no chance final 2f 10th - Casamento - Chased clear winner after 2f, ridden and no headway over 3f out, lost place and well beaten over 2f out, tailed off 11th Roderic O'Connor - Prominent in main group, ridden and struggling over 3f out, well behind final 2f, tailed off Yet note the difference here: 2nd - Dubawi Gold - Steadied start, held up towards rear, headway halfway, disputing modest 2nd and hung left 2f out, chased clear winner over 1f out, kept on but no threat to winner 3rd - Native Khan - Held up off the pace in midfield, ridden and headway over 3f out, chased clear winner well over 2f out until over 1f out, kept on but no threat to winner A quote from a leading Aussie expert of sectional timing: Horses decelerate at the finish. The everyday punter assumes that the closing sectional is the fastest of the race but often that's not the case. |
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Dr Gonzo
There is one thing that hasn't been taken into consideration with Frankel – his recovery time between races. Frankel has needed an average recovery time of 5 weeks between races.Cockney Rebel only needed 3 weeks before going on to win the Irish 2000 easily. Why didn't Frankel? Obvious answer is he was not fit enough to take his place. If he had run and won would he have been fit enough to run in the St James & win it? Cockney Rebel up until the time he was injured in the St James & retired. 3yo career is better than Frankel's. Even you lot can't argue that Frankel winning 1 Classic in 6 weeks is better than Cockney Rebel winning two Classics in 3 weeks. & there are many other Guineas winners that did the double. Why didn't Frankel go for the French Derby 1m2f or the Eclipse 1m2f as Mill Reef did as a 3yo. Instead of the St James? And don't tell me they had it all worked out. Frankel was entered for the Epsom Derby. After weakening in the final furlongs he finished spent in the Guineas and even 1m2f was considered too far for him. The St James is just a group one and doesn't have anything like the value or the prestige of the French Derby or the Eclipse, are you seriously trying to say his connections saw the St James as a superior prize? The racing equivalent of Grand Prix's & Grand Slams is the Classics English/Irish/French, the Arc & the King George. In tennis terms, the St James, Sussex etc. would be more like winning Queens. |